ID Cards

[Howard_lfc]

Who's for them and who's against them?

Personally - I think everybody should have one. And I also think everybody should be on a DNA database - but that's a separate issue.........

In 2008 - all foreign nationals will be getting biometric ID cards and the whole rollout is expected to cost £5.4bn. Eventually - every person over 16 will be required to pay for a biometric ID card.

So discuss.

Sits back and awaits neil Young's reply........

[Red_Polo]

Ridiculous waste of money apart from anything else.

[Airman]

Waste of time and money.

[nebbers]

I don't mind having one, but I do mind having to pay for it.

[JCase]

Just out of curiosity, why do you think everyone should have one? I come from a country where this is nothing new, been around forever and basically there is nothing we can do abt it but to accept the situation. Everyone has an photo ID that contains the following info:

Name
DOB
Country of Birth
Race (Ethnicity)
Gender
Blood type
Address
Thumbprint

This info is linked into all civil service / govt servers and computers. Passports in the next 2-3 yrs will be biometric.

[The Glove]

I don't mind having one, but I do mind having to pay for it.



Yeah Im kinda the same. Im not arsed by them really but am I fuck buying one. Robbing cnuts.

[Neil Young]

You know my views on this so a couple of clarifications and a couple of questions.

Clarifications:

1. "The whole rollout is expected to cost £5.4bn." Really? Those are Government figures which are entirely self-serving since of course they are going to claim the cost will be relatively low. You only have to look at their claims over the costs of big schemes like computerisation of patient records or the Inland Revenue to see that these big schemes go considerably over budget, often costing many times the initial government estimate.

Independent researchers at the LSE estimated last year that the lowest cost estimate would be £10.6bn while doubts over how citizens will take to the cards and over how the scheme will work led them to estimate a possible cost of £19.2bn.

2. Two surveillance schemes have been introduced in London in recent years. I found out recently that Congestion Charge cameras are on full-time, not just during the charging hours. Police requests for data on cars entering the zone which have nothing to do with the charge were downplayed when the scheme was introduced - they are now running at 140 per month and rising. Oyster Cards also store information on journeys throughout London and this information is also used by the state. Livingstone has introduced these schemes for ostensibly good reasons. The security services couldn't have asked for anything better could they? Perhaps that's not a coincidence since the man who Livingstone appointed as Commissioner of Transport for London and who oversaw the implementation of both schemes was Bob Kiley, former CIA agent whose posts included Executive Assistant to the CIA Director.

So, the questions:

1. What is the benefit? The government has used plenty of arguments in favour of ID cards - clampdown on benefit cheats, security against terrorism, identity theft, etc. All of these are highly dubious not least since criminals will be able to clone cards easily.

2. Who benefits? We don't as far as I can see. We end up with the state being able to follow us around, being able to know all about our activities, etc. The old fallacy about having nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide is untenable. The proposed cards would not have stopped the 7/7 bombings, they would not stop identity theft (in fact are likely to increase it since if criminals can crack one piece of ID they have access to an individual's entirel life) and any putative savings on the benefits budget will be swamped by the ongoing cost of the scheme. The state benefits at the expense of the people - do you really want that?

[Shaggy]

Total waste of time and money innit. Am I fuck paying for one of those.

Sue me.

[mick the click]

I am very much against them, for many reasons.

A novelist called Henry Porter, also writes on the erosion of our freedoms and such stuff - I've quoted an extract from an article he wrote below. He's no fanatic. Neither am I, but over the past year or so (through work) I've had my eyes opened a bit.

Unless we're alert to the 'possibilities' we are blind. Any freedom we surrender we will never get back, and 'the war on terror' is the best excuse govt has for imposing on us whatever it thinks it can get away with. ID cards is a govt 'big idea' to show that they're 'doing something' but IMO there are reasons why we should not just accept their proposals meekly. We are, after all, a democracy, are we not?

As a nation we are too complacent - we put waaay too much faith in our govts, of whatever flavour. Whatever they want is correct, eh? Do you think our smiley pm has done a grand job? And his colleagues? Or the opposition? Would you trust them as far as you could throw them?

One of my main gripes about central databases of personal information is the fact that this information will, without doubt, become available to third parties.

So (forgive the crude example) one day your child goes for a job, or wants a mortgage etc and is refused. Why? Maybe because someone has access to information that tells them there's a history of heart attacks or cancer, ms, mental illness, alcoholism etc, in your family.

This is a short extract on ID cards - the full article is in another thread - link below.



Most people have very little understanding of what the ID card scheme will actually mean for them. They think that it just involves a little plastic identifier. But it is much more than that. Every adult will be required to provide 49 pieces of information about themselves which will include biometric measurements - probably an iris scan and fingerprinting. If you refuse to submit to what is called, without irony, enrolment, you will face repeated fines of up £2,500. The Government is deadly serious about this thing because of a simple truth. They want to know pretty much everything there is to know about you.

Personally, I find the idea of having a card repugnant and I cannot believe it will be long before policemen are stopping us on the street and asking for our papers. But this is by no means the most sinister aspect. Every time your card is swiped when you identify yourself, the National Identity Register will silently make a record of the time and date, your location and the purpose of the ID check. Gradually, a unique picture of your life will be built, to which nearly half-a-million civil servants are apparently going to have access.

But of course you will never be told who is looking at your file, or why. And nor will you be able to find out.


http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=7586

Yes - it's a long read. But if there's any chance that you think that you don't know enough about this sort of malarkey - do yourself a favour, get a cup of tea and plough through it.

Call me a cynic, call me anything you like - but do give it a go. :handshake:

[Shaggy]

I am very much against them, for many reasons.

A novelist called Henry Porter, also writes on the erosion of our freedoms and such stuff - I've quoted an extract from an article he wrote below. He's no fanatic. Neither am I, but over the past year or so (through work) I've had my eyes opened a bit.

Unless we're alert to the 'possibilities' we are blind. Any freedom we surrender we will never get back, and 'the war on terror' is the best excuse govt has for imposing on us whatever it thinks it can get away with. ID cards is a govt 'big idea' to show that they're 'doing something' but IMO there are reasons why we should not just accept their proposals meekly. We are, after all, a democracy, are we not?

As a nation we are too complacent - we put waaay too much faith in our govts, of whatever flavour. Whatever they want is correct, eh? Do you think our smiley pm has done a grand job? And his colleagues? Or the opposition? Would you trust them as far as you could throw them?

One of my main gripes about central databases of personal information is the fact that this information will, without doubt, become available to third parties.

So (forgive the crude example) one day your child goes for a job, or wants a mortgage etc and is refused. Why? Maybe because someone has access to information that tells them there's a history of heart attacks or cancer, ms, mental illness, alcoholism etc, in your family.

This is a short extract on ID cards - the full article is in another thread - link below.





http://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=7586

Yes - it's a long read. But if there's any chance that you think that you don't know enough about this sort of malarkey - do yourself a favour, get a cup of tea and plough through it.

Call me a cynic, call me anything you like - but do give it a go. :handshake:


:handshake:

[Neil Young]

Henry Porter. :respect:

[mick the click]

You know my views on this so a couple of clarifications and a couple of questions.

Clarifications:

1. "The whole rollout is expected to cost £5.4bn." Really? Those are Government figures which are entirely self-serving since of course they are going to claim the cost will be relatively low. You only have to look at their claims over the costs of big schemes like computerisation of patient records or the Inland Revenue to see that these big schemes go considerably over budget, often costing many times the initial government estimate.

Independent researchers at the LSE estimated last year that the lowest cost estimate would be £10.6bn while doubts over how citizens will take to the cards and over how the scheme will work led them to estimate a possible cost of £19.2bn.

2. Two surveillance schemes have been introduced in London in recent years. I found out recently that Congestion Charge cameras are on full-time, not just during the charging hours. Police requests for data on cars entering the zone which have nothing to do with the charge were downplayed when the scheme was introduced - they are now running at 140 per month and rising. Oyster Cards also store information on journeys throughout London and this information is also used by the state. Livingstone has introduced these schemes for ostensibly good reasons. The security services couldn't have asked for anything better could they? Perhaps that's not a coincidence since the man who Livingstone appointed as Commissioner of Transport for London and who oversaw the implementation of both schemes was Bob Kiley, former CIA agent whose posts included Executive Assistant to the CIA Director.

So, the questions:

1. What is the benefit? The government has used plenty of arguments in favour of ID cards - clampdown on benefit cheats, security against terrorism, identity theft, etc. All of these are highly dubious not least since criminals will be able to clone cards easily.

2. Who benefits? We don't as far as I can see. We end up with the state being able to follow us around, being able to know all about our activities, etc. The old fallacy about having nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide is untenable. The proposed cards would not have stopped the 7/7 bombings, they would not stop identity theft (in fact are likely to increase it since if criminals can crack one piece of ID they have access to an individual's entirel life) and any putative savings on the benefits budget will be swamped by the ongoing cost of the scheme. The state benefits at the expense of the people - do you really want that?

:rock:

[Red_Al_77]

Waste of time and money. Easily got round. Police don't want them. Wouldn't have helped with 7/7.

Next.

[Rocket]

i have nothing to hide. i'm squeeky clean, ask kaip :jizz:

[mick the click]

Waste of time and money. Easily got round. Police don't want them. Wouldn't have helped with 7/7.

Yes - but we're going to be forced to get them. Why? What's the agenda?

[disco]

Waste of time and money. Easily got round. Police don't want them. Wouldn't have helped with 7/7.

Next.

Really? I'm totally against paying for it - that's what tax money is for! - however I couldn't give a monkeys if my whereabouts are generally known if it helps crime : or are you saying it won't?!

[Howard_lfc]

You know my views on this so a couple of clarifications and a couple of questions.

Clarifications:

1. "The whole rollout is expected to cost £5.4bn." Really? Those are Government figures which are entirely self-serving since of course they are going to claim the cost will be relatively low. You only have to look at their claims over the costs of big schemes like computerisation of patient records or the Inland Revenue to see that these big schemes go considerably over budget, often costing many times the initial government estimate.

Independent researchers at the LSE estimated last year that the lowest cost estimate would be £10.6bn while doubts over how citizens will take to the cards and over how the scheme will work led them to estimate a possible cost of £19.2bn.

2. Two surveillance schemes have been introduced in London in recent years. I found out recently that Congestion Charge cameras are on full-time, not just during the charging hours. Police requests for data on cars entering the zone which have nothing to do with the charge were downplayed when the scheme was introduced - they are now running at 140 per month and rising. Oyster Cards also store information on journeys throughout London and this information is also used by the state. Livingstone has introduced these schemes for ostensibly good reasons. The security services couldn't have asked for anything better could they? Perhaps that's not a coincidence since the man who Livingstone appointed as Commissioner of Transport for London and who oversaw the implementation of both schemes was Bob Kiley, former CIA agent whose posts included Executive Assistant to the CIA Director.

So, the questions:

1. What is the benefit? The government has used plenty of arguments in favour of ID cards - clampdown on benefit cheats, security against terrorism, identity theft, etc. All of these are highly dubious not least since criminals will be able to clone cards easily.

2. Who benefits? We don't as far as I can see. We end up with the state being able to follow us around, being able to know all about our activities, etc. The old fallacy about having nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide is untenable. The proposed cards would not have stopped the 7/7 bombings, they would not stop identity theft (in fact are likely to increase it since if criminals can crack one piece of ID they have access to an individual's entirel life) and any putative savings on the benefits budget will be swamped by the ongoing cost of the scheme. The state benefits at the expense of the people - do you really want that?


Top post as ever NY.
2 things a) i would hope that these cards are not easily copied or cloned as you imply - that would be disasterous.
b) I'm in favour because I'm hoping that it will help combat fraud and identitiy theft as the cost of such acts must run into tens of millions if not billions and this 'saving' could be offset against the cost of the program.

What is the proposed cost of the cards btw?

[disco]

I heard around £85, but I may have made that up.

[Flake]

Top post as ever NY.
2 things a) i would hope that these cards are not easily copied or cloned as you imply - that would be disasterous.
b) I'm in favour because I'm hoping that it will help combat fraud and identitiy theft as the cost of such acts must run into tens of millions if not billions and this 'saving' could be offset against the cost of the program.

What is the proposed cost of the cards btw?

These things get hacked and cracked on the day of release, its the way it works. Like any software puzzle, there is no security against the determined...
As such it takes fraud and identity theft to a higher level.
In the same way that cars are cloned, and the local authorities still try and stick you with the speeding fine, do you think it'll be any easier to explain to H.M. inspector of taxes that indeed you were not picking the mussels on the beach but were in fact at your other legitimately taxed employment?

It won't work, and the Government will say it is working, cause its in their interests.

Funny, windows vista, most expensive release of anything ever, supposed to be the most secure, forcing everyone to buy it etc, millions of hours of the highest paid programmers on the planet..... cracked before it was even released. lol, like the Government's attempts will be any better...lol

[disco]

Presumably it must be hard to fake a retinal scan?

[paulcooper4]

Presumably it must be hard to fake a retinal scan?

you havent seen wesley snipes in demolition man then?

They have retina scans in that, so he sticks some fellas eye on a pen and opens doors with it:rock:

[warrenpeace]

Presumably it must be hard to fake a retinal scan?

Wasn't it done in Thunderball about 40 years ago? :rolleyes:

[Jaco_Pastorious]

everybody should be on a DNA database - ........[/I]



I agree 100% with that line.

As for the biometric id cards, I would object to have to pay for one, but could not care either way if they came in or not. I do not think that they will have a major effect on crime though. As someone else has already said, they can and will be forged.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

you havent seen wesley snipes in demolition man then?

They have retina scans in that, so he sticks some fellas eye on a pen and opens doors with it:rock:



Love that film.:rock:

[paulcooper4]

Love that film.:rock:

fuckin smart film:rock:

[spud_gun]

Yes - but we're going to be forced to get them. Why? What's the agenda?


Money. If the total cost of the project is 5.4 billion [no doubt it'll rise] then someone is going to be making an awful lot of money from this.

[James]

Love that film.:rock:

Sandra Bullock rocked in that movie.

[sean_lfc]

Yes - but we're going to be forced to get them. Why? What's the agenda?


I dont want to start going off on one here.

Its part of the new world order. Total control. Complete giving up of your own rights, freedom and freedom to privacy. Look whats happening in America (Bush - 33rd degree (highest ranking) Freemason) and whats happening here now (Blair, also 33rd degree Freemason). Its pathetic, its all part of their agenda to push forth the New World Order and they use the ABSOLUTE farce of their War On Terror to push through these laws. People dont even have a clue of whats really going on. This is just the beginning. Oh well

[Diego]

Thx 1138, V for Vendetta, 1984 this is actually slowly becoming the reality we are faced with every day, what next Brave New World who wouldn't want that.

this is they way we are headed, and we are being led there like sheep, cameras on every street corner, that have even begun recording sound in some city in the uk as was reported on here a while back, now were talking about identity cards with personal info on them as fingerprints, blood type etc... ffs it's my right to be anonymous if i choose to. every one should be on a DNA database (one day this will happen). now here in Iceland the government is siding with the police and contemplating about butting a new tax on cars it involves puting gps tracking systems in the cars which sends a signal every time you've driven a certain amount of miles and you pay a fee. jesus christ we're talking about putting tracking systems in peoples cars accessible to the police, any bells ringing in your heads now. now i admire what the police does and recognize they are an important part of our system, but giving them more power and freedom to monitor the citizens is not they way to go, they are first and foremost there as our servants not the governments...

i'd rather give up my life than my freedom, move to the middle east or something, or go underground with wesley snipes...

[Red Chilli]

I'm agin them because I haven't heard anyone come up with a sensible reason why we should have one. Waste of money and judging by the shit way public servants fuck things up all the time, there are bound to be serious errors.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Thx 1138, V for Vendetta, 1984 this is actually slowly becoming the reality we are faced with every day, what next Brave New World who wouldn't want that.

this is they way we are headed, and we are being led there like sheep, cameras on every street corner, that have even begun recording sound in some city in the uk as was reported on here a while back, now were talking about identity cards with personal info on them as fingerprints, blood type etc... ffs it's my right to be anonymous if i choose to. every one should be on a DNA database (one day this will happen). now here in Iceland the government is siding with the police and contemplating about butting a new tax on cars it involves puting gps tracking systems in the cars which sends a signal every time you've driven a certain amount of miles and you pay a fee. jesus christ we're talking about putting tracking systems in peoples cars accessible to the police, any bells ringing in your heads now. now i admire what the police does and recognize they are an important part of our system, but giving them more power and freedom to monitor the citizens is not they way to go, they are first and foremost there as our servants not the governments...

i'd rather give up my life than my freedom, move to the middle east or something, or go underground with wesley snipes...



Something Don Bruno should tell us then? :crackoff:

[Diego]

funny you should mention Don Bruno mate, i hear he's coming to town tomorrow, i hear he and a fellow actor Ace McSpade will be on the red carpet tomorrow for the icelandic premier of Flags of Our Fathers, it's nice to see him finally back out here after traveling with the movie all over the world :crackoff:

[Colemere]

Imagine the amount of under 18's who wouldn;t be able to go out on fridays and saturdays:haha:

They would be pissed.

I wouldn't want one i would lose it all the time and when i knew where it was i wouldn't bother to pick it up.

[andyinswinton]

I'm against them as they are a complete waste of time. I wouldn't be bothered having one because I don't have anything to hide but I really think those with something to hide will manage to hide whatever they want.

The trouble is that if they are going to come in, I'd rather pay for it directly rather than indirectly through taxation. That way, I'm paying for mine and not mine and some scrounger who doesn't contribute anything to society.

[Monty]

Absolute waste of time and money. I suppose this is all being done in the name of 'safety', but how this is going to make us all any safer I'm not so sure. What if some of the info on file is wrong. I have enough trouble getting into the US as it is! Imagine the trouble Kaipy would have!

[Red_Polo]

how this is going to make us all any safer I'm not so sure.

It won't. But as long as the government do things that appear to make us safer whilst also successfully instilling fear of attacks into us to ensure we give them more powers to 'make us safer' still, they are getting what they want. 'The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous.'

[captainfog]

The idea that I have to buy an id card to carry it around with me to prove who I am makes me fucking mad :grr:

What's the fucking point? It's a reactionary policy against the so called terrorist threat. Will ID cards stop terrorist from entering the country? No! If people can fake passports then crims will be able to work out how to fake an id card - they're clever buggers you know :source: :haha:

But seriously, that will happen, it's just common sense.

Why should i carry an id card because tony fucking blair or Gordon fucking brown tells me to. fuck off! If i don't carry an id card, how is that hurting or infringing on anyone's rights?

:grr: :grr: :grr: rant over

[Redlife]

I don't mind having one, but I do mind having to pay for it.



That's how I feel.


It's ridiculous that we'll probably have to pay for these things. I don't even think people should have to pay for passports. I think it's a fundamental right of every citizen to have one and should be funded out of general taxation.

[Mumsafan]

I've got a passport and a driving licence so I just don't see the point in anything else.

[disco]

I've got a passport and a driving licence so I just don't see the point in anything else.


Is your passport photo a painting?

[Spionkop69]

You know my views on this so a couple of clarifications and a couple of questions.

Clarifications:

1. "The whole rollout is expected to cost £5.4bn." Really? Those are Government figures which are entirely self-serving since of course they are going to claim the cost will be relatively low. You only have to look at their claims over the costs of big schemes like computerisation of patient records or the Inland Revenue to see that these big schemes go considerably over budget, often costing many times the initial government estimate.

Independent researchers at the LSE estimated last year that the lowest cost estimate would be £10.6bn while doubts over how citizens will take to the cards and over how the scheme will work led them to estimate a possible cost of £19.2bn.

2. Two surveillance schemes have been introduced in London in recent years. I found out recently that Congestion Charge cameras are on full-time, not just during the charging hours. Police requests for data on cars entering the zone which have nothing to do with the charge were downplayed when the scheme was introduced - they are now running at 140 per month and rising. Oyster Cards also store information on journeys throughout London and this information is also used by the state. Livingstone has introduced these schemes for ostensibly good reasons. The security services couldn't have asked for anything better could they? Perhaps that's not a coincidence since the man who Livingstone appointed as Commissioner of Transport for London and who oversaw the implementation of both schemes was Bob Kiley, former CIA agent whose posts included Executive Assistant to the CIA Director.

So, the questions:

1. What is the benefit? The government has used plenty of arguments in favour of ID cards - clampdown on benefit cheats, security against terrorism, identity theft, etc. All of these are highly dubious not least since criminals will be able to clone cards easily.

2. Who benefits? We don't as far as I can see. We end up with the state being able to follow us around, being able to know all about our activities, etc. The old fallacy about having nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide is untenable. The proposed cards would not have stopped the 7/7 bombings, they would not stop identity theft (in fact are likely to increase it since if criminals can crack one piece of ID they have access to an individual's entirel life) and any putative savings on the benefits budget will be swamped by the ongoing cost of the scheme. The state benefits at the expense of the people - do you really want that?

Neil, I've highlighted a bit further up. What is your issue with that?

Surely if someone is using vehicles for illegal purposes or is untaxed, uninured etc, then the police can use that legitimate tool to get catch / prevent the usage.

Sorry its a bit off topic but was interested in your viewpoint - part of my job is working on cases involving fraudulent use of vehicles / recovering fraudulently obtained vehicles. My view is that if the information is used under Section 29 (3) of the Data Protection Act (ie for the investigation of or prevention of crime or the prosecution of offenders) then its ok. I know police go on "fishing trips" but trust me with the computer systems in place now, there are less and less because everything leaves a footprint.

[Neil Young]

Neil, I've highlighted a bit further up. What is your issue with that?

Surely if someone is using vehicles for illegal purposes or is untaxed, uninured etc, then the police can use that legitimate tool to get catch / prevent the usage.

Sorry its a bit off topic but was interested in your viewpoint - part of my job is working on cases involving fraudulent use of vehicles / recovering fraudulently obtained vehicles. My view is that if the information is used under Section 29 (3) of the Data Protection Act (ie for the investigation of or prevention of crime or the prosecution of offenders) then its ok. I know police go on "fishing trips" but trust me with the computer systems in place now, there are less and less because everything leaves a footprint.
We've seen this kind of "legislation creep" plenty of times before. A good example is the use of anti-stalking legislation to prevent legal political activity.

My point is that these new methods are always downplayed at the time and yet are exploited to the full later. We weren't sold the Congestion Charge as a means of surveillance on the general public. Not to mention how these images are used by the security services to keep an eye on supposed threats to national security (and that includes, as ever, people and organizations who are engaged in entirely legal political activity).

There is a growing culture of surveillance of citizens by the state. Computerisation of these records means that the state will incresingly be able to keep profiles of all citizens in much the same way as Tesco uses its loyalty card scheme to track its consumers' shopping patterns.

Freedom of the individual is being eroded at a frightening rate. Always though these measures will be sold to us as having minimal effect on us, has being targetted purely at achieving perfectly laudable ends and without any nefarious long-term agenda. That doesn't mean that what they say is true however. They've lied to us on so many occasions in the past that we accept their assurances at our peril.

[captainfog]

We've seen this kind of "legislation creep" plenty of times before. A good example is the use of anti-stalking legislation to prevent legal political activity.

My point is that these new methods are always downplayed at the time and yet are exploited to the full later. We weren't sold the Congestion Charge as a means of surveillance on the general public. Not to mention how these images are used by the security services to keep an eye on supposed threats to national security (and that includes, as ever, people and organizations who are engaged in entirely legal political activity).

There is a growing culture of surveillance of citizens by the state. Computerisation of these records means that the state will incresingly be able to keep profiles of all citizens in much the same way as Tesco uses its loyalty card scheme to track its consumers' shopping patterns.

Freedom of the individual is being eroded at a frightening rate. Always though these measures will be sold to us as having minimal effect on us, has being targetted purely at achieving perfectly laudable ends and without any nefarious long-term agenda. That doesn't mean that what they say is true however. They've lied to us on so many occasions in the past that we accept their assurances at our peril.

:handshake:

Big Brother is watching.....unfortunately :grr:

[Howard_lfc]

Is your passport photo a painting?

The passport photo was scribed onto a scroll with blood and flints. :p


:finger: :finger:

[The Glove]

I heard around £85, but I may have made that up.



If thats right then Jobseekers Allowance per week is £57.45. How are people on benefit supposed to pay for one?

[disco]

If thats right then Jobseekers Allowance per week is £57.45. How are people on benefit supposed to pay for one?

Save for a week and a half? :handshake:

Stupid isn't it.

[alunevans]

as with all such things like this, the serious crims its meant to be targeted at will put the time and resources into finding a way around it soon enough leaving the rest of us controlled and watched over. utterly pointless. and expensive. and dependent upon benevolent authorities not to misuse it.

[alunevans]

We've seen this kind of "legislation creep" plenty of times before. A good example is the use of anti-stalking legislation to prevent legal political activity.

My point is that these new methods are always downplayed at the time and yet are exploited to the full later. We weren't sold the Congestion Charge as a means of surveillance on the general public. Not to mention how these images are used by the security services to keep an eye on supposed threats to national security (and that includes, as ever, people and organizations who are engaged in entirely legal political activity).

There is a growing culture of surveillance of citizens by the state. Computerisation of these records means that the state will incresingly be able to keep profiles of all citizens in much the same way as Tesco uses its loyalty card scheme to track its consumers' shopping patterns.

Freedom of the individual is being eroded at a frightening rate. Always though these measures will be sold to us as having minimal effect on us, has being targetted purely at achieving perfectly laudable ends and without any nefarious long-term agenda. That doesn't mean that what they say is true however. They've lied to us on so many occasions in the past that we accept their assurances at our peril.

Indeed. Did you know for instance that many people have been arrested for peacefully standing at the Cenotaph and reading out the names of the soldiers killed in Iraq? I may be wrong but I think this was under the Prevention of Terrorism legislation. Certainly old Walter Wolfgang, manhandled from Labours conference for heckling Jack Straw, was arrested under this law.

Terrorism now challenges the right of a citizen to heckle a leading politician. How broad a definition.

[Rich]

And as a populace what exactly are we doing?

Sweet F.A.

[Neil Young]

Indeed. Did you know for instance that many people have been arrested for peacefully standing at the Cenotaph and reading out the names of the soldiers killed in Iraq? I may be wrong but I think this was under the Prevention of Terrorism legislation. Certainly old Walter Wolfgang, manhandled from Labours conference for heckling Jack Straw, was arrested under this law.

Terrorism now challenges the right of a citizen to heckle a leading politician. How broad a definition.
Yes, it is a disgrace. I think they usually use a small clause in the Serious Organized Crime and Police Act of 2005 (to prevent demonstrations within 1km of our noble representatives of the People) but they also use the Terrorism Act of 2000 (allowing the police to stop and search people in designated areas, anywhere) and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 (anti-stalking legislation) and...

:handshake:

[L10]

I dont want to start going off on one here.

Its part of the new world order. Total control. Complete giving up of your own rights, freedom and freedom to privacy. Look whats happening in America (Bush - 33rd degree (highest ranking) Freemason) and whats happening here now (Blair, also 33rd degree Freemason). Its pathetic, its all part of their agenda to push forth the New World Order and they use the ABSOLUTE farce of their War On Terror to push through these laws. People dont even have a clue of whats really going on. This is just the beginning. Oh well

:haha: :haha: :rash:

Don't see what the problem is.....

http://www.smiliegifs.de/SMILIES/Aliens/1a.gif

[mick the click]

:haha: :haha: :rash:

Don't see what the problem is.....

http://www.smiliegifs.de/SMILIES/Aliens/1a.gif

That's the nub, really. Complacency. I have to say sean_LFCs theories are somewhat beyond me, but I appreciate his energy, commitment and enthusiasm.

But there is a real threat to your freedom. With respect, if you don't see it - you don't know enough. Read - I mean read about this stuff. It's not mad conspiracy guff, just an issue that we are foolish to ignore.

:handshake: