View Full Version : RUC Disgrace and just proves what has been said about them
thesilverfoxlfc
23-01-07, 11:08 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6289177.stm
:shake: :shake: :shake: it makes me sick and blood boil but im not really surprised
They should all be punished big time for what they did, it would be right to suspend them but most of them are all retired now.
Don't think anyone in Ireland is surprised by this..
Will the extent of it ever come out though? Was it a case of "handlers" knowing what activities their informers were engaged in but did nothing (as what is suggested in the report) or did it go further? Did somebody in the police / government make the decision that saving many lives far out weighed the death of a few individuals? I don't think we'll ever know. There should also be an enquiry on the other side of the border into collusion considering what's been published.
On Monday, Police Ombudsman Nuala O'Loan's report said UVF members in the area committed murders and other serious crimes while working as informers for Special Branch.
That will have happened on both sides. Furthermore, there are bent cops in England that will turn an eye to dodgy informers.
However there will be more sinister stories in NI to uncover than that, like direct collusion between the RUC and some loyalists. If she digs deep enough... I'm certain she'll find it.
Is anyone actually surprised by this?!?!
This doesn't surprise me in the least. I found the RUC and the UDR to be so unspeakably bigoted that I had to restrain myself at all times when dealing with them. I would not be surprised to hear more come out that will get to even more serious issues.
This doesn't surprise me in the least. I found the RUC and the UDR to be so unspeakably bigoted that I had to restrain myself at all times when dealing with them. I would not be surprised to hear more come out that will get to even more serious issues.
It's just a case of getting them to admit it. Surely.
It's just a case of getting them to admit it. Surely.
I doubt these people would ever admit anything as they were allegedly guilty of a series of crimes, all with a sectarian bias. Sinn Fein need to get involved in the political control of the police as effcetive oversight will go some way to reducing the possibility of this happening again. Ps I'm not a SF symp[athiser BTW. But for NI to continue to flourish politrical life needs to be healthy with the main parties fully engaged with a clear democratic mandate.
SF want current IRA prisoners out on remand to form part of the police force do they not?
[QUOTE=JRG;253994 But for NI to continue to flourish politrical life needs to be healthy with the main parties fully engaged with a clear democratic mandate.[/QUOTE]
:handshake:
[QUOTE=Bob;253959]That will have happened on both sides. Furthermore, there are bent cops in England that will turn an eye to dodgy informers.
However there will be more sinister stories in NI to uncover than that like direct collusion between the RUC and come loyalists if she digs deep enough... I'm certain of it. Is anyone actually surprised by this?!?! [QUOTE]
Sadly no. Not at all.
Redlife
23-01-07, 06:54 PM
I'm pretty sure this has all been common knowledge for years and year, if not this particular case and informant(s), then others from a while back.
Jaco_Pastorious
23-01-07, 08:22 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6289177.stm
:shake: :shake: :shake: it makes me sick and blood boil but im not really surprised
They should all be punished big time for what they did, it would be right to suspend them but most of them are all retired now.
Just curious as to why it should get such a reaction from you? It is really no surprise to anyone, but outside of those who actually live/lived up there and had their lives impacted upon by it, I see no need for getting worked up.
thesilverfoxlfc
23-01-07, 08:25 PM
Just curious as to why it should get such a reaction from you? It is really no surprise to anyone, but outside of those who actually live/lived up there and had their lives impacted upon by it, I see no need for getting worked up.
Before it was rumour or tales from people who lived up there or who reported but never before was it written down in black and white :handshake:
Jaco_Pastorious
23-01-07, 08:32 PM
Before it was rumour or tales from people who lived up there or who reported but never before was it written down in black and white :handshake:
It was always known that it was going on, not in rumours or tales. It is just that it is hitting the mainstream now. When I worked in Belfast it was common knowledge, and I am sure that if a blow in like me knew it, then people who have been living in the North all their lives were well aware of it. As someone in this thread has already made a comment about, the RUC were/are not the only force to be up to such dealings. The police force in many countries has similar things going on. Just go one county over from where you live yourself Silver, and there is plenty of incidents where a blind eye is turned by the local plod.
thesilverfoxlfc
23-01-07, 08:44 PM
Its just i found it distributing that this goes on and these people have got away with and rewarded with doing these sort of acts.
Thats all :handshake:
Jaco_Pastorious
23-01-07, 08:48 PM
Its just i found it distributing that this goes on and these people have got away with and rewarded with doing these sort of acts.
Thats all :handshake:
I agree that it is wrong that people should get away with these things for so long, but there is a lot of it going around and will always be methinks. :shake:
I agree that it is wrong that people should get away with these things for so long, but there is a lot of it going around and will always be methinks. :shake:
:handshake: Ain't that the sad truth.
Farside
25-01-07, 01:50 AM
Just curious as to why it should get such a reaction from you? It is really no surprise to anyone, but outside of those who actually live/lived up there and had their lives impacted upon by it, I see no need for getting worked up.
So your attitude is, fuck them they are only Northern Irish?
These guys were involved in at least 10 murders, kidnapping, drugs, extorsion, bodily harm the list goes on. Dude read the report.
Name me any other place in Europe were it is ok for a police force to take part, and by turning a blind eye they took part, in murder? Your attitude is disgusting.
horrible bastards everyone of them encouraged by the brit goverment. i hope that bitch thatcher has nothing but mong grandkids
IrishPaul
25-01-07, 03:51 AM
horrible bastards everyone of them encouraged by the brit goverment. i hope that bitch thatcher has nothing but mong grandkids
Well she did have Mong Kids so chances are..... :)
Seriously though, as has been said already it is no suprise and also this was all brought up a few years ago with the whole 'StakeKnife' affair.
Sadly though as usual when it comes to British involvment in Northern Ireland they'll ride out the storm and the scumbags who should be done won't get done cos IMO this sort of shit went right to the top :grr:
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 09:41 AM
So your attitude is, fuck them they are only Northern Irish?
These guys were involved in at least 10 murders, kidnapping, drugs, extorsion, bodily harm the list goes on. Dude read the report.
Name me any other place in Europe were it is ok for a police force to take part, and by turning a blind eye they took part, in murder? Your attitude is disgusting.
No, my attitude is not "They are only Northern Irish" I take it you are Irish too then, because then you are well aware that when something happens in the North, especially involving the RUC/England/Prodestants etc., then there is always an outpouring of rage and indignation from people down South. Mostly from those who have never been affected by what is happening up there and have never even been there.
When there is a tragedy that hits hard on those in Northern Ireland who are not seen as the "good guys", there is not outcry down here about it being wrong, and their deaths being a tragedy.
The problems in Northern Ireland should always be seen as a whole, not from sides. It is the folk who have lived there and experienced loss and heartache that I feel sorry for.
I have read through the report, and as I said earlier, it is no surprise. People who live/lived there knew this all along. Why were people not making a fuss on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland long before this? Was it not real until it was published in a report.
If my attitude disgusts you, so be it. Maybe you should point out to me, from your first hand experience of living in a trouble hit area what it was like. Because I am sick of listening to people going on about Northern Ireland who have never been there and have no idea what the people there have gone through. But if you are not from there or have not lived there, then you really have no idea as to what you are on about, and are basing your ideas from this report and watching tv and reading newspapers.
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 09:42 AM
:handshake: Ain't that the sad truth.
Unfortunately it is. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
No, my attitude is not "They are only Northern Irish" I take it you are Irish too then, because then you are well aware that when something happens in the North, especially involving the RUC/England/Prodestants etc., then there is always an outpouring of rage and indignation from people down South. Mostly from those who have never been affected by what is happening up there and have never even been there.
When there is a tragedy that hits hard on those in Northern Ireland who are not seen as the "good guys", there is not outcry down here about it being wrong, and their deaths being a tragedy.
The problems in Northern Ireland should always be seen as a whole, not from sides. It is the folk who have lived there and experienced loss and heartache that I feel sorry for.
I have read through the report, and as I said earlier, it is no surprise. People who live/lived there knew this all along. Why were people not making a fuss on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland long before this? Was it not real until it was published in a report.
If my attitude disgusts you, so be it. Maybe you should point out to me, from your first hand experience of living in a trouble hit area what it was like. Because I am sick of listening to people going on about Northern Ireland who have never been there and have no idea what the people there have gone through. But if you are not from there or have not lived there, then you really have no idea as to what you are on about, and are basing your ideas from this report and watching tv and reading newspapers.
:handshake: Top post Jaco my man.
Good post Jaco.
The police have done this for both sides, Paul mentioned the "StakeKnife" affair when it came out that the Police had knowledge of an IRA informer who was still on active duty and who carried out and knew about terrorist attacks. Is that a disgrace as well, or is it as somebody suggested just that the RUC were bigoted against catholics.
But put it in context what police force hasn't done this? Do you think the police forces in england have knowledge from informers about organisaed criminal activity and act on it everytime?
Do you think the FBI and CIA have people trying to influtrate terrorist cells? If so, what if they were faced with killing somebody to retain their cover and potentially stop a major terrorist attack?
It's already been proved the Irish police have done this too - does that make them a disgrace as well?
Spionkop69
25-01-07, 05:46 PM
So your attitude is, fuck them they are only Northern Irish?
These guys were involved in at least 10 murders, kidnapping, drugs, extorsion, bodily harm the list goes on. Dude read the report.
Name me any other place in Europe were it is ok for a police force to take part, and by turning a blind eye they took part, in murder? Your attitude is disgusting.
The former Yugoslavia?
Spionkop69
25-01-07, 05:51 PM
No, my attitude is not "They are only Northern Irish" I take it you are Irish too then, because then you are well aware that when something happens in the North, especially involving the RUC/England/Prodestants etc., then there is always an outpouring of rage and indignation from people down South. Mostly from those who have never been affected by what is happening up there and have never even been there.
When there is a tragedy that hits hard on those in Northern Ireland who are not seen as the "good guys", there is not outcry down here about it being wrong, and their deaths being a tragedy.
The problems in Northern Ireland should always be seen as a whole, not from sides. It is the folk who have lived there and experienced loss and heartache that I feel sorry for.
I have read through the report, and as I said earlier, it is no surprise. People who live/lived there knew this all along. Why were people not making a fuss on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland long before this? Was it not real until it was published in a report.
If my attitude disgusts you, so be it. Maybe you should point out to me, from your first hand experience of living in a trouble hit area what it was like. Because I am sick of listening to people going on about Northern Ireland who have never been there and have no idea what the people there have gone through. But if you are not from there or have not lived there, then you really have no idea as to what you are on about, and are basing your ideas from this report and watching tv and reading newspapers.
Jaco, that's a very balanced post. :handshake:
A pity more people don't see the troubles as a whole rather than from their own myopic viewpoint.
Just goes to show though, it doesn't matter what political spin you put on it, you cannot change 35 years odd of violent troubles overnight. There is still deep-seated mistrust and hatred from both sides of the divide. Some of it relevant and some it handed down through bigotry and sectarianism over the generations.
Farside
25-01-07, 07:01 PM
No, my attitude is not "They are only Northern Irish" I take it you are Irish too then, because then you are well aware that when something happens in the North, especially involving the RUC/England/Prodestants etc., then there is always an outpouring of rage and indignation from people down South. Mostly from those who have never been affected by what is happening up there and have never even been there.
When there is a tragedy that hits hard on those in Northern Ireland who are not seen as the "good guys", there is not outcry down here about it being wrong, and their deaths being a tragedy.
The problems in Northern Ireland should always be seen as a whole, not from sides. It is the folk who have lived there and experienced loss and heartache that I feel sorry for.
I have read through the report, and as I said earlier, it is no surprise. People who live/lived there knew this all along. Why were people not making a fuss on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland long before this? Was it not real until it was published in a report.
If my attitude disgusts you, so be it. Maybe you should point out to me, from your first hand experience of living in a trouble hit area what it was like. Because I am sick of listening to people going on about Northern Ireland who have never been there and have no idea what the people there have gone through. But if you are not from there or have not lived there, then you really have no idea as to what you are on about, and are basing your ideas from this report and watching tv and reading newspapers.
You know nothing about me or family or relationship we have with Northern Ireland. Don't even try and imagine it. You worked in Belfast, you know everything. How long did you work there for?
If you knew anything about the 26 counties you would know that the majority don't give a fuck about the 6 counties. Omagh, Eniskellen & the Shankill bombings all tragedy's that were shared on both sides of the border. You make a point about "why was there not a fuss made before". Look at the civil rights marches.
People wonder why we have no confidence in the ruc? this shit explains some of the reasons. The ruc and udr were armed wings of the unionist parties.
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 07:19 PM
[QUOTE=Farside;258147]You know nothing about me or family or relationship we have with Northern Ireland. Don't even try and imagine it. You worked in Belfast, you know everything. How long did you work there for?
My point is that people who have not lived through what has happened up there would not understand what is going on. I have never claimed to know everything about what goes on up there, and would not be arrogant enough to even think that. My grandfather was shot dead in Belfast, so I know a little about how it affects people. I do not think that anyone can claim to know everything about what has gone on over the years, but one thing that is for sure, it doesn't matter what side of a political/religious divide you are from when you are dead, and it does not ease the pain felt by those left behind any little bit.
If you knew anything about the 26 counties you would know that the majority don't give a fuck about the 6 counties.
I am Irish and live there, so I think I have a pretty good grasp as to what seems to be the majority view on Northern Ireland. Which is that most people do not have a clue as to what is going on up there, and have a very biased and unbalanced view. Most people down South only seem to have an opinion on the North when it is from one viewpoint.
Omagh, Eniskellen & the Shankill bombings all tragedy's that were shared on both sides of the border. You make a point about "why was there not a fuss made before". Look at the civil rights marches.
People wonder why we have no confidence in the ruc? this shit explains some of the reasons. The ruc and udr were armed wings of the unionist parties.
Who are we? Who has questioned the confidence that people had in the RUC? The point was that people knew about what was going on long before this was made a big deal about in the media, so I would expect some people would have lost whatever confidence they had a long long time ago. You seem to like an agressive approach in your posting, I hope you are not like that in real life. When I lived in Belfast, I tried to treat anyone I met the same, I did not, and still do not give a shit as to what creed or colour a person is. If I like a person then I like them, if I think they are an asshole then that what I think.
Maybe if you took the time to express your views to me and others, then it could be understood from where you are arguing from. Everything that I have said has come from my experiences of the North (A place that if you check back through posts made in the chat room, that you will see that I have great time and affection for) and from my families experiences or being from there. I would love, and I mean this sincerely, to hear your viewpoint and learn from your experience, as I am a firm believer of listening and gaining knowledge. Who knows, maybe you may open my eyes to something that may passed me by, or just edjucate me on things I may not know. The floor is yours Farside, if you want it.
Farside
25-01-07, 08:00 PM
It is just that I felt from your original post that you accepted what happens in the North as nothing to worry about. Believe me I have had first hand experience with religious bigotry and harassment. My family moved out off Northern Ireland.
I find it hard to come on to an English based forum and discuss what has happened. You talk about people in the 26 counties with an unbalanced view, which I don't agree with, but the view from mainland Britain is terrible, I doubt if anyone there really cares at all.
Dude, believe me I am not an angry man and I apologise if I come across that way.
(at sorry for the delay)
IrishPaul
25-01-07, 08:20 PM
If you knew anything about the 26 counties you would know that the majority don't give a fuck about the 6 counties.
Sorry mate but that statement is a complete load of bollix!!! :rant:
:grr:
Farside
25-01-07, 08:24 PM
Sorry mate but that statement is a complete load of bollix!!! :rant:
:grr:
Why?
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 08:53 PM
It is just that I felt from your original post that you accepted what happens in the North as nothing to worry about. Believe me I have had first hand experience with religious bigotry and harassment. My family moved out off Northern Ireland.
I find it hard to come on to an English based forum and discuss what has happened. You talk about people in the 26 counties with an unbalanced view, which I don't agree with, but the view from mainland Britain is terrible, I doubt if anyone there really cares at all.
Dude, believe me I am not an angry man and I apologise if I come across that way.
(at sorry for the delay)
Cheers for the reply mate.:)
I disagree with your comment about those in the 26 not having an unbalanced view. I really do believe that there is a very biased and uneducated view of what has happened in Northern Ireland in the South. But it is a case for you and I to agree to disagree. :handshake:
As for your comment on the view from mainland Britain. I think you might be correct there, but then again, it is difficult for people to get worked up by anything that is not on their own doorstep and impacting directly on them. Take the struggle in Iraq. How many of us can honestly say that we spend time thinking about what the civilians are going through over there. Out of sight and out of mind would be the way for most, not saying that is right or wrong, but seems the mindset for many.
Red_Al_77
25-01-07, 09:08 PM
Cheers for the reply mate.:)
I disagree with your comment about those in the 26 not having an unbalanced view. I really do believe that there is a very biased and uneducated view of what has happened in Northern Ireland in the South. But it is a case for you and I to agree to disagree. :handshake:
As for your comment on the view from mainland Britain. I think you might be correct there, but then again, it is difficult for people to get worked up by anything that is not on their own doorstep and impacting directly on them. Take the struggle in Iraq. How many of us can honestly say that we spend time thinking about what the civilians are going through over there. Out of sight and out of mind would be the way for most, not saying that is right or wrong, but seems the mindset for many.
I think you'll find it's more to do with the fact that 400 people including multiple murderers (including those that blew London and other cities to bits in the 90s) were released in the name of peace. People on the mainland have an indifference to NI.
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 10:03 PM
I think you'll find it's more to do with the fact that 400 people including multiple murderers (including those that blew London and other cities to bits in the 90s) were released in the name of peace. People on the mainland have an indifference to NI.
Very good point Al, and a perfect example of a person (in this case me) showing indifference because they were not affected directly by it.
Spionkop69
25-01-07, 10:20 PM
It is just that I felt from your original post that you accepted what happens in the North as nothing to worry about. Believe me I have had first hand experience with religious bigotry and harassment. My family moved out off Northern Ireland.
I find it hard to come on to an English based forum and discuss what has happened. You talk about people in the 26 counties with an unbalanced view, which I don't agree with, but the view from mainland Britain is terrible, I doubt if anyone there really cares at all.
Dude, believe me I am not an angry man and I apologise if I come across that way.
(at sorry for the delay)
And what makes you think no one over here cares? Trust me, when the Troubles were being brought to our doorstep with the maiming and killing of innocents we cared.
In a way one side will always view those killings as being linked to the Brits because of the protestant association of the mainland.
One thing though, you are upset about the legalised killings by the authorities - did you get equally upset about the all the killings of innocents by the Republican paramilitaries?
Because I could say, in the same vein as you, that no one in the South cared about that - I would of course be wrong though.
Farside
25-01-07, 10:46 PM
One thing though, you are upset about the legalised killings by the authorities - did you get equally upset about the all the killings of innocents by the Republican paramilitaries?
Murder is murder is murder.
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 11:31 PM
Murder is murder is murder.
No arguement from me on that.
Farside
25-01-07, 11:42 PM
One thing though, you are upset about the legalised killings by the authorities - did you get equally upset about the all the killings of innocents by the Republican paramilitaries?
Now you know why it is hard to come on to an English based forum and discuss Northern politics. If you have a go at the police/army you are labled a provo.
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 11:49 PM
Now you know why it is hard to come on to an English based forum and discuss Northern politics. If you have a go at the police/army you are labled a provo.
In fairness mate I don't think it was meant like that, he is just giving a counterpoint to your point. What I think Spion is getting at, is what I was saying in an earlier post, that the situation needs to be looked at as a whole, and not from any one viewpoint.
I think I can safely say that none of the lads in this thread would start throwing any labels at people on this subject. But counterpoints are good in the respect that they show the other side of the coin, and when we take both views, somewhere in the middle lies the common ground needed to build upon.
Farside
25-01-07, 11:55 PM
Fair enough. Fuc I hate politics.
Jaco_Pastorious
25-01-07, 11:57 PM
Fair enough. Fuc I hate politics.
I think Spion is offline at the moment, but I'm sure he will set things straight when he reads the posts.
Hate politics myself, it is the art of taking a simple thing and making it impossible to decipher.
IrishPaul
26-01-07, 12:34 AM
Why?
Because there is no way you could possibly know how 'the majority' of people in the Republic feel about the 6 counties of Northen Ireland, thats why!
I fuckin' hate the whole 'chip on the shoulder' attitude of people from the North about 'us' down south not caring about them, we are all Irish people IMO.
Personally most people I've come across in my life living in the Republic (Family, Friends, Aquantinces, etc) are very passionate about what happens in the North and are also very passionate about the possibility of a United Ireland.
My point is don't be making wildly speculative statements about how a whole fuckin' country feels :rolleyes:
Oh and BTW I also hate politics but hopefully the future of Northern Ireland will be sorted out in a peacful and democratic way by the fuckers who are in government and not by the old way of the armalite :handshake:
Farside
26-01-07, 12:56 AM
Peace!
IrishPaul
26-01-07, 02:00 AM
Peace!
Lets hope so mate :handshake:
:cool:
Its just such an extremely complex and complicated situation, and as many posters on here have said it needs to be seen from all sides, which can sometimes be very very difficult even for somebody like me who has lived in NI all their lives.
As Jaco and Farside have said, just having a point of view can end up getting you branded as being republican or loyalist. Some people over here tend to judge your "allegiances" based on where you live, what school you went to, what football team you support etc. Its sad really as in my experience about 99% of people here don't give a shit and just want to get on and enjoy life and live in peace.
Its been a good debate on here though and some excellent posts all round.
IrishPaul
26-01-07, 06:44 PM
Its just such an extremely complex and complicated situation, and as many posters on here have said it needs to be seen from all sides, which can sometimes be very very difficult even for somebody like me who has lived in NI all their lives.
As Jaco and Farside have said, just having a point of view can end up getting you branded as being republican or loyalist. Some people over here tend to judge your "allegiances" based on where you live, what school you went to, what football team you support etc. Its sad really as in my experience about 99% of people here don't give a shit and just want to get on and enjoy life and live in peace.
Its been a good debate on here though and some excellent posts all round.
Well said Slim :handshake:
Spionkop69
27-01-07, 12:30 PM
In fairness mate I don't think it was meant like that, he is just giving a counterpoint to your point. What I think Spion is getting at, is what I was saying in an earlier post, that the situation needs to be looked at as a whole, and not from any one viewpoint.
I think I can safely say that none of the lads in this thread would start throwing any labels at people on this subject. But counterpoints are good in the respect that they show the other side of the coin, and when we take both views, somewhere in the middle lies the common ground needed to build upon.
Started to type a reply and realised you'd already done it better than me! :handshake:
Let me make this clear, I wasn't labelling or trying to label anyone a Provo, just pointing out the fact that there are 3 divides - one for each side and then the middle ground.
As for these being English based forums - ha! It seems there are more Irish and Welsh posters on here than English! :finger:
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