View Full Version : Society is broken
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:17 PM
Is it?
What's caused it in your opinion? Can it be repaired? Any thoughts?
All this has stemmed from the teenage gang killings in London
captainfog
16-02-07, 05:27 PM
The worst thing about the gang killings in London is the police are now going to have armed officers patrolling certain areas
This will perpetuate the violence IMO.
Society has been fucked for ages, it is getting worse and will continue to get worse as we see the state become more and more heavy handed.
Nicey? a topic for you surely?
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:29 PM
I sometimes think the state was more heavy handed when I was young. Nowadays if a kid misbehaves at school they get sent home for the day, if we misbehaved we got the slipper or the cane! I know which punishment would stop me reoffending :D
I have to say this is one of those things which I can go either way on. Honestly speaking, the parts of the world I hang about in and the people I know all seem to be getting on fine. It is easy to read the paper and get the impression that the whole world has gone to hell but it doesn't tie in with my experience all that much.
That having been said there is a very reasonable argument that I do not sample enough of the varied areas of society that would be needed to make any sort of objective judgement.
The one thing that does worry me is the increasing poverty gap. This is a vry difficult problem to deal with as we now effectively live in a global economy meaning that all jobs can be relocated and the obvious protectionist route of countries like France is all but impossible for us as we have such a small industrial base and rely so heavily on banking and other service/knowledge based sectors.
captainfog
16-02-07, 05:33 PM
there is a difference between schools being heavy handed and the state introducing ID cards, constantly watching us on their CCTV, carrying guns, shooting innocents etc etc etc
Plus we still have not won the EPL.....a sure sign the society has gone down the shitter
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:37 PM
I have to say this is one of those things which I can go either way on. Honestly speaking, the parts of the world I hang about in and the people I know all seem to be getting on fine. It is easy to read the paper and get the impression that the whole world has gone to hell but it doesn't tie in with my experience all that much.
That having been said there is a very reasonable argument that I do not sample enough of the varied areas of society that would be needed to make any sort of objective judgement.
The one thing that does worry me is the increasing poverty gap. This is a vry difficult problem to deal with as we now effectively live in a global economy meaning that all jobs can be relocated and the obvious protectionist route of countries like France is all but impossible for us as we have such a small industrial base and rely so heavily on banking and other service/knowledge based sectors.
There is a huge gap. A void.
However, as was pointed out over the weekend during the Cameron drugs debate, things that would morally horrify someone 20 or 30 years ago are now commonplace. Every line is being crossed in some areas until there is nothing left.
I really don't think much has changed. This has been going on in London for a long time and there are a number of things that could have led to an escalation. The only reason this is big news is because it's guns and makes for exciting copy.
If these gangs want to take one another out they will and no police deterent will change this fact. The gun is just an instrument and this goes far deeper.
Red_Polo
16-02-07, 05:39 PM
A lot of it boils down to the social and economic policies of Thatcher and the undercover-Thatchers that have succeeded her. IMO.
Awaits Mattshark's agreement
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:41 PM
It's all the fault of one woman then! Well I never! One woman. Just one. Blimey!And a woman! Not a man...a woman! Bloody hell!
Neil Young
16-02-07, 05:44 PM
It's all the fault of one woman then! Well I never! One woman. Just one. Blimey!And a woman! Not a man...a woman! Bloody hell!
I know what you mean Mums but if I may say so I think you're oversimplifying.
There is a huge gap. A void.
However, as was pointed out over the weekend during the Cameron drugs debate, things that would morally horrify someone 20 or 30 years ago are now commonplace. Every line is being crossed in some areas until there is nothing left.
Morals are certainly shifting but I'm not sure that it is true that everything is worse. What is for certain is that there is more transparency. The simply fact is that because we can see that things happen all the time we can no longer be upset by them.
I tend to have quite liberal views on drugs, particularly cannabis - where I see no reasonable moral justification for it to be treated differently to alcohol or tobacco.
I would probably go along with the view that the freedoms that most people think are reasonable have exceeded the level of responcibility they are willing to take on an individual level. I suspect however that to say that society has broken down is an over simplification to the point of falacy.
The one thing that does worry me is the increasing poverty gap. This is a vry difficult problem to deal with as we now effectively live in a global economy meaning that all jobs can be relocated and the obvious protectionist route of countries like France is all but impossible for us as we have such a small industrial base and rely so heavily on banking and other service/knowledge based sectors.
This is about wealth though, not survival.
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:46 PM
I know what you mean Mums but if I may say so I think you're oversimplifying.
:haha: :haha:
I just do sometimes honestly think that if she'd been a man then she wouldn't get half the attention that she does get, that's all.
I can't wait to see what happens if Hilary becomes President.:haha:
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:47 PM
Morals are certainly shifting but I'm not sure that it is true that everything is worse. What is for certain is that there is more transparency. The simply fact is that because we can see that things happen all the time we can no longer be upset by them.
I tend to have quite liberal views on drugs, particularly cannabis - where I see no reasonable moral justification for it to be treated differently to alcohol or tobacco.
I would probably go along with the view that the freedoms that most people think are reasonable have exceeded the level of responcibility they are willing to take on an individual level. I suspect however that to say that society has broken down is an over simplification to the point of falacy.
The "Society is broken" is a phrase bandied about throughout today's news BTW not my own view or anything
Neil Young
16-02-07, 05:48 PM
:haha: :haha:
I just do sometimes honestly think that if she'd been a man then she wouldn't get half the attention that she does get, that's all.
I can't wait to see what happens if Hilary becomes President.:haha:
That's an interesting persepctive. I think you've got a point.
All the same she was pretty terrible though.
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:51 PM
That's an interesting persepctive. I think you've got a point.
:handshake:
This is about wealth though, not survival.
I'm probably being stupid but are you questioning the idea that the divide between rich and poor has an effect on society or about how wealth distribution is effected by the nature of the economy in question? Or just saying that so long as people can survive then thats all cool or something else entirely?
None of the above :)
Simply that what is happening here has no relevance to poverty.
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 05:55 PM
None of the above :)
Simply that what is happening here has no relevance to poverty.
What about society in general? Does poverty affect that in your opinion?
Yes, I would be rather stupid to suggest otherwise.
kendoddsdadsdogsdead
16-02-07, 06:06 PM
The co existence of the underclass and other more affluent eschelons of society existed long before Thatcher got into power, and will do long after she has been forgotten. British society is becoming more service industry based, and as a result, people want things without hard graft. Gone are the days where jobs were in ready supply, so the alternative earners profit from tax free, often illegal incomes. The understanding of what community constitutes has shifted, with people living in relative isolation. So much of the fear of punishment and retribution has disappeared since the slow sinking of Britain's legal system into a litigious morass. As long as kids are allowed to leave school with minimal, often meaningless grades, and employers can offer them minimum wages, then the youth of today will always be faced with a difficult choice. That is unless they have a strong family behind them and the support of caring school. I feel that is the last social construct that has a say in the development of young adults.
None of the above :)
Simply that what is happening here has no relevance to poverty.
I wasn't necissarily meaning to talk about poverty per-se more about inequality. I can see your point in a way but I think what people mean by society is the way people treat each other and I feel that there are three main threads to that:
1/ Perception of community
2/ Perception of societal institutions
3/ Perception of prospects
All of which I feel are heavily influenced by where you stand in financial terms. Particularly in a knowledge based economy where education becomes more and more important.
On a more specific note, if you were basically saying that poverty had nought to do with the killing in London. I honestly haven't read anything about it and so wouldn't like to comment.
Red_Polo
16-02-07, 06:11 PM
It's all the fault of one woman then! Well I never! One woman. Just one. Blimey!And a woman! Not a man...a woman! Bloody hell!
I didn't say just her, I said every undercover-Thatcher of a PM that's followed her...which is all of them. So basically the socioeconomic policies of the people that have run the country over much of the last 30 years are to blame, hardly a shocking claim :D
Mumsafan
16-02-07, 06:51 PM
I didn't say just her, I said every undercover-Thatcher of a PM that's followed her...which is all of them. So basically the socioeconomic policies of the people that have run the country over much of the last 30 years are to blame, hardly a shocking claim :D
You could have just said "every government since 1979" then :haha:
Neil Young
16-02-07, 07:01 PM
None of the above :)
Simply that what is happening here has no relevance to poverty.
Really?
Out of 646 constituencies at the last (2001) census, Peckham and Camberwell's percentage of owner-occupiers (a key pointer to relative wealth in the UK) is 22.2%. It comes 646th, that's lowest in the entire country.
I really don't see how you can baldly claim that poverty has nothing to do with these murders.
Red_Polo
16-02-07, 07:08 PM
You could have just said "every government since 1979" then :haha:
That wouldn't have encapsulated that I was laying blame at the 'Thatcherite' ideology rather than just poor PMs though :D
Where the fuck is Mattshark to take this to a new level? :haha:
Red_hot
16-02-07, 07:42 PM
Kids get away with murder now to be fair. Teachers can't even tell them off properly cos half the kids aren't arsed or they know that teachers have limited powers. "You can't do that to me, I know my rights", blah blah blah! Need a good fucking kick up the arse half of them!
Really?
Out of 646 constituencies at the last (2001) census, Peckham and Camberwell's percentage of owner-occupiers (a key pointer to relative wealth in the UK) is 22.2%. It comes 646th, that's lowest in the entire country.
I really don't see how you can baldly claim that poverty has nothing to do with these murders.
Nice one for the baldly bit :haha:
I have just come across this article which sums it up nicely for me. I think you know this is not a case of the cherry picked areas you mention (failing to mention Streatham, Clapham and Brixton) as this violent crime is happening in most boroughs; North, South, East and West.
Please tell me how your stat proves this is a poverty driven situation?
This isn't about guns
The traditional Caribbean family no longer works here, and black youngsters are paying the price
Joseph Harker
Friday February 16, 2007
The Guardian
As officers investigate the third teenage killing in 12 days, and within five miles, no doubt many will be commending yesterday's Metropolitan police decision to set up armed patrols on south London's most notorious estates. But this is a false dawn: it would take an armed officer in every home to have any lasting impact.
This is not about guns. And we will never defeat murderous inner-city youth crime through the actions of the police alone. Nor will the answer come through stiffer sentences, though that would be equally popular. Sadly, we're beyond all that: the teenagers who take to guns are just the tip of the iceberg.
Much attention has focused on the fact that many victims, and their killers, are black - which is impossible to ignore, though it makes many people uncomfortable. But though this is not an issue entirely about race - the latest victim was half white, half Thai - we need to quickly find answers as to why urban youth culture, as also witnessed in Manchester and Nottingham, has become so violent.
What is it that makes one youngster want, and then decide, to kill another, by whatever weapon? Yes, many of them grow up in poverty, and on crime-ridden estates, but there's little doubt that the glorification of gang culture through the multibillion entertainment industry - "Get rich or die tryin'", as 50 Cent says - is a factor. However, whereas politicians are happy to clamp down on the junk food industry for luring kids towards burgers, they seem to be less keen on fighting those who lure them towards guns. Is it because they see the latter as just a black problem, which won't affect swing voters?
We can't, though, entirely pass the buck to politicians. In the week when Britain's failures towards its children have been exposed by a devastating Unicef report, much has been made of the need to listen to children. But more crucial is the need to lead children: to combat the "bling" culture and ground our kids in what is really important.
In Caribbean history, a central role is taken by the heroic mother who raised her family while the father literally slaved in the fields, and support came from the extended family. This ideal was popularised by Hillary Clinton, in her book named after the claimed African proverb: "It takes a village to raise a child".
But in today's overdeveloped world, where status is gained either through jobs or money, and where community bonds have grown ever weaker, the notion of the backup "village" has become irrelevant. Fathers have continued to abandon mothers, who feel they have to cope even though they've lost their traditional support. Children have often been the ones to suffer, growing up in a moral vacuum where they make their own rules, in a society that's too complex for them to understand.
This is not to blame single parents for their circumstances. But society can't afford to worsen the problem by making it appear there's no advantage in a child having two participating parents. It takes a mother and a father to raise a child. We can't give men an excuse to go awol.
Twenty years ago, as a journalist in the black press, I was optimistic about the future for black Britons, assuming as our presence here grew stronger we'd see our people prosper. Today, though, despite the progress of many, we have seen the growth of an underclass; and without breaking the cycle, it will become more entrenched and more desperate, with teenage pregnancies and ruined life chances becoming the norm.
Our schools throw information about sex and drugs at children from as young as seven. Isn't it time a greater priority was given to teaching youngsters about parenting, about families, and about making sure the next generation doesn't suffer the same traumas as this?
Red Chilli
16-02-07, 09:56 PM
It's the beginning of the end :(
The Glove
16-02-07, 10:14 PM
If gang members want to kill each other then let them. What we need is a good World War to draft in all the chavs and kill them off.
:crackoff:
I wasn't necissarily meaning to talk about poverty per-se more about inequality. I can see your point in a way but I think what people mean by society is the way people treat each other and I feel that there are three main threads to that:
1/ Perception of community
2/ Perception of societal institutions
3/ Perception of prospects
All of which I feel are heavily influenced by where you stand in financial terms. Particularly in a knowledge based economy where education becomes more and more important.
I was particularly talking about the killings in London rather than Mum's theme but by proxy I agree that everything comes down to economy. However, I would say this situation is a factor of your first two points and put simply I think London (and other similar cities) are a lonely loveless city for the young especially those who do not have a stable family but gang life attracts a huge range of young people.
The issue here, and I hate blaming the media/video games etc, is that everything in modern society is about money where you are nothing unless you are rich and have material wealth. A child that can earn up to a grand in a day is not going to understand the path of education to earn a fraction of that in their future. This is manipulated from the top and what starts as making a few quid from selling weed escalates in to a situation that you cannot leave whatever the consequences.
Red Chilli
16-02-07, 10:16 PM
If gang members want to kill each other then let them. What we need is a good World War to draft in all the chavs and kill them off.
We tried that though in Iraq.
The Glove
16-02-07, 10:58 PM
We tried that though in Iraq.
Well Iran will put up more of a fight so we'll need more soldiers.
Well Iran will put up more of a fight so we'll need more soldiers.
Don't even joke about that, I pray that if this does happen we wont join in :(
Red Chilli
16-02-07, 11:05 PM
Don't even joke about that, I pray that if this does happen we wont join in :(
Bush 'You're either with us or against us' :(
mick the click
16-02-07, 11:08 PM
I sometimes think the state was more heavy handed when I was young. Nowadays if a kid misbehaves at school they get sent home for the day, if we misbehaved we got the slipper or the cane! I know which punishment would stop me reoffending :D
Just a quick 2p...Mums has a point, and I don't think money has much to do with it. It's about respect. Many kids don't have any respect for anyone or anything - but believe they're gods gift - entitled to all there is.
If I stepped out of line in school - I got beaten up. If I stepped out of line on the street - I'd get beaten up, whether it was cheeking someone (an adult wouldn't really think twice about administering a clip around the ear - and then they'd tell your parents and they'd get at you) or pushing your luck with other kids.
I hate rules - and I'm not suggesting that a clout is the answer, but kids need to be taught to fear something, but these days they can do whatever they like and get off with it. There really isn't anything to fear, whatever they do, there's no payback.
Bush 'You're either with us or against us' :(
:sigh: Iraq will look like a Disney movie compared to Iran :(
Red_hot
16-02-07, 11:11 PM
Just a quick 2p...Mums has a point, and I don't think money has much to do with it. It's about respect. Many kids don't have any respect for anyone or anything - but believe they're gods gift - entitled to all there is.
If I stepped out of line in school - I got beaten up. If I stepped out of line on the street - I'd get beaten up, whether it was cheeking someone (an adult wouldn't really think twice about administering a clip around the ear - and then they'd tell your parents and they'd get at you) or pushing your luck with other kids.
I hate rules - and I'm not suggesting that a clout is the answer, but kids need to be taught to fear something, but these days they can do whatever they like and get off with it. There really isn't anything to fear, whatever they do, there's no payback.
:handshake:
The Glove
16-02-07, 11:19 PM
Don't even joke about that, I pray that if this does happen we wont join in :(
You'll be to old mate, dont worry. :handshake:
Its cyclical, society goes down the toilet then rebuilds itself. Times of decadence and violence turn to enlightnement turn to decadance and violence....etc.
120 plus years ago violence, disease and severe poverty were rife.
It gets better, it gets worse. Hard as it is to believe soceity is less violent than it used to be in previous (pre 20th) centuries.
But it is getting worse.
I'm honestly not sure about how true the increase in violence is. I went trawling the net for statistics and basically you can make any case you want:
In the last 10 years the recorded number of gun crimes has doubled. However we have changed the law so offences with replica weapons now count and the number of deaths is reasonably stable (actually dipping a bit in the last few years in London which came as a bit of a shock).
The British Crime Survey in the last couple of years shows a dip in violent crime (this is the survey of a sample of 45,000 people, not based on police reports).
There are reasonable summaries on the bbc site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5195910.stm).
Well here is my 2 pence. Society in the UK and Ireland is fucked and has been for a very long time. Whilst on the surface people are earning a decent wage, have more disposable income etc. The average Joe or Josephine on the street cannot walk down it for fear of getting their head kicked in.
I say this as a matter of opinion and I can back any of it up with hard facts. But heres my take. I grew up in working class Dublin, in a area were you needed to know how to look after yourself or you would get you head kicked in regularly. Because of this it kind of hardened you up a little, made you street wise, gave you 360 deg vision. But all that considered there was generally a respect for “Older” people, and unfortunately by that I mean anyone over 30, but more like 40 or 50.
These days its that is gone. What’s worse is the kids know that we know its gone. Because of that people are walking around on edge and gangs of kids like something out of some Stanley Kubrick movie room there city in groups of 15 plus ready to literally ready to kill someone for no reason what so ever. It’s a self perpetuating circle, the more incidents of random violence the more society at large becomes on edge, the more bravado these little shit bags get. I call them shit bags but in reality a lot of the time its not their fault.
By all accounts the Family unit in the UK and Ireland has broken down. Teenagers on a whole spend absolutely no time with their parents or there siblings. There surrogate parents are there teenage friends and this is were they get there gauge of what right and wrong is. The education system is failing them also. It full of overworked, over stressed, under qualified, lowly motivated teachers who cannot cope with these wild kids.
Add to this there is a general aggressiveness to Society in the west. It seems everybody is walking around wound up like a clock ready to snap and let someone really have it. The TV is all bite size and of low substance, the pace is fast, ever increasing amounts of stuff people have, better houses, cars etc but there is a disconnect, a vacuum, dare I say it a spiritual void. A lack of purpose. Just going through the motions.
But I digress, a lot of these little shit bags are 2nd and 3rd generation shitbags, born of little shitbag parents who themselves were born of similar people of such fine standing. They have grown up on frozen chips and pizza, mum and dad are down the club most nights or worse shooting up. They don’t give a flying fuck whether the kids are doing well at school or even at school for that matter. When dad gets back from the club pissed up he uses little tommies head as a kicking bag. This in turn kind of numbs Tommies perception of violence and he can quite easily kick the shit out of some stranger and not blink and eye. And on and on it goes.
The fucking Politicians should do something about it. That’s why they are paid there big salaries for, its not to get pedicures and delivery false promises and scripted sound bits. This is a problem that is like a social octopus and its tentacles spread in all areas. Poor social education, a social welfare system that rewards laziness and encourages shit bags to have kids, an unfair income tax system, a complete and utter disintegration of the traditional family unit, rampant immigration with little integration and a complete and utter spiritual disconnect. Its thought that in certain extremely powerful circles and by that I mean the ruling class who never really went away. There is the opinion that the masses are just unruly beasts bubbling away micro inchs from the surface. You must keep the beast occupied and on edge, else all chaos will break lose. Horrible to say they may just be right.
I live in Hong Kong, have done for nearly 10 years. I love this city with all my heart. This is my home now. I know it is not perfect, far from it. But a couple of very basic things it is are this. It is safe, extremely safe. I can walk anywhere in this city at anytime and not fear for my safety. I don’t have to worry what clothes I am wearing or what part of the city I am going to. The tube system runs every 2 minutes, its clean, its new and its safe at all hours. In a city were parts of it are literally the most densely populated pieces of land of the planet, people just get along with there business and if they bump into you they just say sorry and move on. Not a look to say have you got the fucking minerals pal because I do. The tax system is 15 flat rate for all people regardless of income. Granted the social service system is not so hot but that in turn makes Hong Kong one of the most entrepreneurial places on the planet, and in a twisted way strengthens the family bonds. Education here is of utmost importance, normal average Hong Kong kids score some of the highest results in the world, in Sciences they are number 1. Its literally beaten into them. Chinese people have an incredible work ethic and are on the most part obsessed with money and getting more of it. Now I know that not such a good thing but it does have its benefits. In my city there is very little crime, the Triads keep everything in house. There is a famous story of a couple western business men walking down Wan Chai, they turned a corner into a full scale Triad street war between 14 or so guys complete with meat cleavers, upon seeing the two business fellas, the gang stopped fighting waited for the two terrifies business man to walk past and then duly started to chop pieces out of each other again. There is very little if any random violence here. Hong Kong has one of the lowest police street presence to match its extremely low crime rate. Patten called it the most civilized city on the planet.
It gives me the freedom just to be me, I have lost my hard edge and for the most part am just chilled moseying around in shorts and flip flops.
One thing I would do if I held political office, anybody under the age of 50 who is on social and is fit, needs to go to work for their money. Even if its just a couple of weeks a month, this in turn may even increase the social kitty to help people out. Perhaps loosen the burden of hard working tax payers, give them a break, reduce their taxes, give them more money in their back pocket. Close a some of loop wholes the wealthy use, like off shore banking, dodgy tax breaks. Close some of them not all and put that money back into the system. Pay teachers more and kick all shit ones out. Put more police on the street and encourage community relationships with local police forces. Engage in a national debate on family education, the new family unit, social responsibly. A message needs to be sent, ENOUGH is ENOUGH!
:rant: :handshake: :rant:
Neil Young
17-02-07, 09:50 AM
Nice one for the baldly bit :haha:
I have just come across this article which sums it up nicely for me. I think you know this is not a case of the cherry picked areas you mention (failing to mention Streatham, Clapham and Brixton) as this violent crime is happening in most boroughs; North, South, East and West.
Please tell me how your stat proves this is a poverty driven situation?
This isn't about guns
The traditional Caribbean family no longer works here, and black youngsters are paying the price
Joseph Harker
Friday February 16, 2007
The Guardian
As officers investigate the third teenage killing in 12 days, and within five miles, no doubt many will be commending yesterday's Metropolitan police decision to set up armed patrols on south London's most notorious estates. But this is a false dawn: it would take an armed officer in every home to have any lasting impact.
This is not about guns. And we will never defeat murderous inner-city youth crime through the actions of the police alone. Nor will the answer come through stiffer sentences, though that would be equally popular. Sadly, we're beyond all that: the teenagers who take to guns are just the tip of the iceberg.
Much attention has focused on the fact that many victims, and their killers, are black - which is impossible to ignore, though it makes many people uncomfortable. But though this is not an issue entirely about race - the latest victim was half white, half Thai - we need to quickly find answers as to why urban youth culture, as also witnessed in Manchester and Nottingham, has become so violent.
What is it that makes one youngster want, and then decide, to kill another, by whatever weapon? Yes, many of them grow up in poverty, and on crime-ridden estates, but there's little doubt that the glorification of gang culture through the multibillion entertainment industry - "Get rich or die tryin'", as 50 Cent says - is a factor. However, whereas politicians are happy to clamp down on the junk food industry for luring kids towards burgers, they seem to be less keen on fighting those who lure them towards guns. Is it because they see the latter as just a black problem, which won't affect swing voters?
We can't, though, entirely pass the buck to politicians. In the week when Britain's failures towards its children have been exposed by a devastating Unicef report, much has been made of the need to listen to children. But more crucial is the need to lead children: to combat the "bling" culture and ground our kids in what is really important.
In Caribbean history, a central role is taken by the heroic mother who raised her family while the father literally slaved in the fields, and support came from the extended family. This ideal was popularised by Hillary Clinton, in her book named after the claimed African proverb: "It takes a village to raise a child".
But in today's overdeveloped world, where status is gained either through jobs or money, and where community bonds have grown ever weaker, the notion of the backup "village" has become irrelevant. Fathers have continued to abandon mothers, who feel they have to cope even though they've lost their traditional support. Children have often been the ones to suffer, growing up in a moral vacuum where they make their own rules, in a society that's too complex for them to understand.
This is not to blame single parents for their circumstances. But society can't afford to worsen the problem by making it appear there's no advantage in a child having two participating parents. It takes a mother and a father to raise a child. We can't give men an excuse to go awol.
Twenty years ago, as a journalist in the black press, I was optimistic about the future for black Britons, assuming as our presence here grew stronger we'd see our people prosper. Today, though, despite the progress of many, we have seen the growth of an underclass; and without breaking the cycle, it will become more entrenched and more desperate, with teenage pregnancies and ruined life chances becoming the norm.
Our schools throw information about sex and drugs at children from as young as seven. Isn't it time a greater priority was given to teaching youngsters about parenting, about families, and about making sure the next generation doesn't suffer the same traumas as this?
You claimed it had nothing to do with poverty yet it's mentioned in the very article you quoted.
I agree there are other important factors but I'm concerned that in our (or more accurately the Tories') handwringing and desire to shift the blame entirely on to some psycho-social issue (like parenting or gangsta culture) we shouldn't lose sight of the economic conditions in which these problems thrive.
Are you bald then? :D
:handshake:
badpiggy
17-02-07, 11:12 AM
nicey does a very good analysis above methinks. one thing though - the perception we have in ireland of the UK is of a society in meltdown. i've spokedn to lots of people who taught in england in some of the tougher schools and one thread ran through their every statement - kids from "broken homes" cause the vast majority of the difficulties. that's not meant to be judgemental, rather a sad fact. i teach in a middle class school and it never ceases to amaze me that when you do a bit of digging, the vast majority of troublesome kids - 70/80% - have a fucked up home situation.
another contentious statement - people who i have spoken to who taught in england reported that in families of carribean extraction, on ehting thatwas very common was families fathered by men who continually fucked off and fathered families and on and on...is this true? again, not trying to be offensive but cultures have characteristics and they're not always positive - eg ireland and drink
Build More Prisons
Lock The Bastards Up For Longer Periods
Bring Back The Death Penalty
Mumsafan
17-02-07, 02:25 PM
"Teenagers on a whole spend absolutely no time with their parents or there siblings. " from Nicey.
Actually my sons, one of which is a teenager, spend most of their out of school lives either with us or with each other. Comments from people like "Don't they ever go off on their own for the day" or "Why aren't they up town" really annoy me. Each son has his own special interests which they do on their own/ with friends but I prefer them to spend time as a family or with each other.
I know they are probably the exception to the rule but it's what they want to do and I don't mind, I'm pleased in fact that they aren't hanging around bus stops or traipsing round some town centre - as my eldest said "How boring is that?"
The sad thing is I can probably only name about 4 families in this village where the children are the same as my lads.
Red_hot
17-02-07, 02:29 PM
I know they are probably the exception to the rule but it's what they want to do and I don't mind, I'm pleased in fact that they aren't hanging around bus stops or traipsing round some town centre - as my eldest said "How boring is that?"
:handshake: I'd rather my kids had the whole class in the house than walk round streets or hang round outside offies etc.
Neil Young
17-02-07, 04:49 PM
nicey [who lives in Hong Kong] does a very good analysis above methinks. one thing though - the perception we have in ireland [the operative phrase ] of the UK
Can you hear yourselves? :rolleyes:
Neil whats your point ? I am from Ireland, have lived in the UK have two sisters living there now. Are you implying that you have to live there to comment on the situation.
Neil Young
17-02-07, 09:47 PM
No. But I'm surprised you're not talking less and asking more.
Red Chilli
17-02-07, 09:53 PM
Build More Prisons
Lock The Bastards Up For Longer Periods
Bring Back The Death Penalty
:haha:
Neil Young
17-02-07, 10:00 PM
Nice one for the baldly bit :haha:
I have just come across this article which sums it up nicely for me. I think you know this is not a case of the cherry picked areas you mention (failing to mention Streatham, Clapham and Brixton) as this violent crime is happening in most boroughs; North, South, East and West.
Please tell me how your stat proves this is a poverty driven situation?
As for cherry-picking stats, I don't know how well you know London but Clapham North, Streatham and Peckham are rough places with a lot of poverty and associated problems.
Tonight's murder in London happened in Homerton High Street - also a poor part of Hackney which is, I believe, the poorest borough in the UK.
Assuming you do know London, you'll know that it is a patchwork of rich and poor areas - for instance, there are parts of Clapham that are wealthy and there are other parts, like North Clapham, that have real problems. So gun crime exploding across London means nothing for your argument - there are poor areas across London too.
Red Chilli
17-02-07, 10:08 PM
"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"
More bullshit from our exhaulted leader :shake:
The Glove
17-02-07, 10:52 PM
Just put me in charge. I'll appoint a Coucil of Elders and we're sorted.
As for cherry-picking stats, I don't know how well you know London but Clapham North, Streatham and Peckham are rough places with a lot of poverty and associated problems.
Tonight's murder in London happened in Homerton High Street - also a poor part of Hackney which is, I believe, the poorest borough in the UK.
Assuming you do know London, you'll know that it is a patchwork of rich and poor areas - for instance, there are parts of Clapham that are wealthy and there are other parts, like North Clapham, that have real problems. So gun crime exploding across London means nothing for your argument - there are poor areas across London too.
Jesus, you really are argumentative :finger:
I have lived in North and South London for 28 years. I grew up and have lived in the very nice and the very bad. I ran with gangs from the age of 14 until about 18 when one of the closest people to me was executed. A large portion of my friends were lost to drugs and violence or sent down. I have also worked in schools that attempt to draw kids away from all of this and consider myself fairly knowledgeable from personal experience.
If you want to drag up old post, yes, my article did mention poverty but had you highlighted the sentence rather than the section that suited you you would see the writer was saying that poverty was not the problem and are you now suggesting that the Guardian is a Tory rag? Please.
Why don't you quit question everyone elses opinions on this and quanitify yours? Are any of these kids starving? Does a large bulk of this money go on designer clothes and other frivilous capitalist ideologies?
SouthAfricaRed
18-02-07, 01:40 AM
I think the Biggest Problem world wide is the Breakdown of the Basic Family Structure.
People dont respect each other or the property/rights of others
Society suffers a general Lack of Discipline. Everybody does what they want.
Blaming Poverty is not True. Poverty can affect you positively as well. It can teach you to appreciate what you have and encourage you to work harder to achieve more.
Bottom line is our Civilization is in Meltdown. We have regressed to a society where criminals enact their most Basic impulses without regard of the effect on others
How do we solve this problem? I dont think it's possible :(
Red Chilli
18-02-07, 01:50 AM
Capitalism.
Materialistic values.
Lack of discipline.
Breakdown of family structure.
Lack of education.
My two penneth.:handshake:
No. But I'm surprised you're not talking less and asking more.
twat
This thread has become quite unpleasant. I rather regret bringing poverty into it.
What is interesting is the assumption from all that UK society has already gone, that we now live in some Don DeLillo dystopia. I have to say I recognise nothing of my life or surroundings in the following quote from Nicey:
Because of that people are walking around on edge and gangs of kids like something out of some Stanley Kubrick movie room there city in groups of 15 plus ready to literally ready to kill someone for no reason what so ever.
This may well be a function of the sort of places I live - Finchley, York, Cambridge. However it is indicative of the fact that the issues at work and the problems are very heterogeneous.
I personally think a core problem is more that we are in a society in flux. The traditional family unit and local community bonds have become much weaker and other social structures - work places and friends, possibly even internet communities have a much more powerful inflence these days.
The type of these secondary influences available to you seem to be very different depending on your place of your upbringing and the class/level of wealth you have.
I think it is simplistic in the extreme to blame all the problems on poverty (and I never meant to do so). However it is a major creator of divisions, and shaper of aspirations and predjudices. It is very difficult to seperate cause and effect - does the breakdown in families create less able individuals with more problems or does poverty make it harder to keep a family together?
So overall I think we all agree with most of the problems that society faces, but disagree on the extent to which we are already gone and quite a lot of the disagreement on this thread has been needlessy prickly.
twat
Is that really called for?
Neil Young
18-02-07, 11:09 AM
twat
Charmed I'm sure. :rolleyes:
I thought it was perfectly reasonable to point out that you're somewhat removed from the reality of the situation, getting your reports second-hand either from people you know or from the media (which incidentally you implicitly or explicitly question in many other threads). It doesn't mean you can't have an opinion and of course it's good you express it but don't be surprised if not everyone welcomes it when you start handing down judgments from several thousand miles away.
Neil Young
18-02-07, 11:20 AM
Jesus, you really are argumentative :finger:
I have lived in North and South London for 28 years. I grew up and have lived in the very nice and the very bad. I ran with gangs from the age of 14 until about 18 when one of the closest people to me was executed. A large portion of my friends were lost to drugs and violence or sent down. I have also worked in schools that attempt to draw kids away from all of this and consider myself fairly knowledgeable from personal experience.
If you want to drag up old post, yes, my article did mention poverty but had you highlighted the sentence rather than the section that suited you you would see the writer was saying that poverty was not the problem and are you now suggesting that the Guardian is a Tory rag? Please.
Why don't you quit question everyone elses opinions on this and quanitify yours? Are any of these kids starving? Does a large bulk of this money go on designer clothes and other frivilous capitalist ideologies?
:D I really try not to be argumentative for the sake of it. Sorry if I've been less than successful here. (Maybe I was grumpier than usual - it - another year older yesterday :sigh:).
Of course you're right these kinds aren't, thankfully, struggling for existence in the way millions of children in the world have to but there is absolute poverty and relative poverty. While they're not starving, prospects for children growing up in some of these areas are not so hot. Naturally there are other factors to be taken into account but these flourish in areas suffering from deprivation. The Tories (and New Labour) seem to prefer to ignore this. I thought your original post seemed to suggest that you were thinking along similar lines - apologies if I misread your point.
As for quantifying it, I did a quick Google for one stat based on a search of the only borough in which I was certain (from memory) there had been a murder and you accused me of cherry-picking! Incidentally I don't recall you backing up your claims with too many stats. ;)
:handshake:
Red_hot
18-02-07, 11:27 AM
twat
No need to be offensive.
lfcruleus
18-02-07, 12:13 PM
Is it?
What's caused it in your opinion? Can it be repaired? Any thoughts?
All this has stemmed from the teenage gang killings in London
Ok I have an opinion on this which probably will not be popular, but i do not mean it in a sexist way.
The breakdown of our once sensible society imho comes down to the breakdown of proper family values. The root cause for this again IMHO is the fact that kids are not brought up the same way as they were 30 years+ ago. Unfortunately this comes down to the time spent with thier parents. Due to both parents tending to work nowadays (sometimes due to necessity i know seperate debate.) In the old days when mums stayed at home (nothing to say Dad's cant do it) kids would spend far more time with at least one of thier parents and less time with thier peers.
The class divide which does clearly exist in our country is most evident in this, you dont see the middle class kids out shooting each other at night do you?
I beleive basic values like right and wrong have to come from the parents, the education system is not responsible for this. If Parents spend no time with thier kids in their formative years how can these values be imparted.
Red_Al_77
18-02-07, 12:14 PM
The family, and in particular parents, is the key. Poverty does play a part but there are great families who have fuck all and shite families who are super rich. If you give your children love and don't just stick them in a room with cash and a fecking Xbox and forget about them then you stand a chance of producing a decent human being.
The family structure is breaking down. That is where the problem lies.
lfcruleus
18-02-07, 12:21 PM
The family, and in particular parents, is the key. Poverty does play a part but there are great families who have fuck all and shite families who are super rich. If you give your children love and don't just stick them in a room with cash and a fecking Xbox and forget about them then you stand a chance of producing a decent human being.
The family structure is breaking down. That is where the problem lies.
Yeah what he said :handshake:
:D I really try not to be argumentative for the sake of it. Sorry if I've been less than successful here. (Maybe I was grumpier than usual - it - another year older yesterday :sigh:).
Of course you're right these kinds aren't, thankfully, struggling for existence in the way millions of children in the world have to but there is absolute poverty and relative poverty. While they're not starving, prospects for children growing up in some of these areas are not so hot. Naturally there are other factors to be taken into account but these flourish in areas suffering from deprivation. The Tories (and New Labour) seem to prefer to ignore this. I thought your original post seemed to suggest that you were thinking along similar lines - apologies if I misread your point.
As for quantifying it, I did a quick Google for one stat based on a search of the only borough in which I was certain (from memory) there had been a murder and you accused me of cherry-picking! Incidentally I don't recall you backing up your claims with too many stats. ;)
:handshake:
The funny thing is that I don't think we actually disagree on this but then whoever let that get in the way of a good argument :finger:
I never said that poverty had no part in the social surroundings of the situation just that these particular actions were not poverty driven although without doubt coming from a poor background is more likely to lead you in to these issues. My thoughts were not politically envoked either, I couldn't give a monkeys what the Tories or New Labour have to say on this as I doubt it has any place in the reality of the situation.
Nothing has changed and it's only an escalation that has highlighted it. Also, the development of social technologies means we are more likely to hear about these things where before it was fairly easy to just let it slip under the radar. Very sad situation but not anything new.
Neil Young
18-02-07, 03:29 PM
The funny thing is that I don't think we actually disagree on this but then whoever let that get in the way of a good argument :finger:
I never said that poverty had no part in the social surroundings of the situation just that these particular actions were not poverty driven although without doubt coming from a poor background is more likely to lead you in to these issues. My thoughts were not politically envoked either, I couldn't give a monkeys what the Tories or New Labour have to say on this as I doubt it has any place in the reality of the situation.
Nothing has changed and it's only an escalation that has highlighted it. Also, the development of social technologies means we are more likely to hear about these things where before it was fairly easy to just let it slip under the radar. Very sad situation but not anything new.
I completely disagree. I agree. No I don't...
It is very sad, I think that's what has got to me on this thread.
:handshake:
Red_Polo
18-02-07, 03:41 PM
The family, and in particular parents, is the key. Poverty does play a part but there are great families who have fuck all and shite families who are super rich. If you give your children love and don't just stick them in a room with cash and a fecking Xbox and forget about them then you stand a chance of producing a decent human being.
The family structure is breaking down. That is where the problem lies.
But it the breakdown of the family structure really the cause or is it just another symptom? There are good and bad parents regardless of class, so why is violent crime so disproportionately caused by and affecting people of low social standing?
Red_Al_77
18-02-07, 04:54 PM
But it the breakdown of the family structure really the cause or is it just another symptom? There are good and bad parents regardless of class, so why is violent crime so disproportionately caused by and affecting people of low social standing?
I'm glad you said violent crime. Social standing is no barrier to crime. It's just that the choice of weapon is different. Put simply if you have some intelligence you can perfect other crimes which do not include blowing people's brains out. The best criminals are by nature highly intelligent. Violent crime is a no brainer. It attracts higher sentences and usually involves death at one stage or another. Maybe then the crime fits the social standing. It is a simplistic view I know but I think a valid one.
lfcruleus
18-02-07, 05:34 PM
I'm glad you said violent crime. Social standing is no barrier to crime. It's just that the choice of weapon is different. Put simply if you have some intelligence you can perfect other crimes which do not include blowing people's brains out. The best criminals are by nature highly intelligent. Violent crime is a no brainer. It attracts higher sentences and usually involves death at one stage or another. Maybe then the crime fits the social standing. It is a simplistic view I know but I think a valid one.
That is the point i was making earlier, the values imparted are different at different social levels. It is seen as part of life nowadays in parts of our major cities that people get shot because of who they are not what they have done. If someone had been shot where i was brought up it would have been the biggest thing ever to happen. Someone got burgled once when i was a kid, ONCE only i can remember in our street. I moved to Manchester in 1992 and i got burgled 3 times and the final straw why we moved was someone was shot and killed on our road.
If when i was a kid (not that long ago) i had done anything remotely involving the police my father would have beaten 7 shades of shit out of me and i knew it. Also i knew that doing things that affect other people negatively is wrong. Kids of today in some areas do not get that education.
God i sound like a tory.
No need to be offensive.
Its a term of endearment :handshake:
badpiggy
18-02-07, 06:46 PM
Can you hear yourselves? :rolleyes:
:confused: did i miss something here? "neil young in becoming more like real neil young*shocker."
*based on the assumption that the real neil young is moderately to severely grumpy. and i'm not even canadian/have never been to canada/know one canadian and she knows nothing about neil young.
MARTINOZ
19-02-07, 05:05 AM
Kids get away with murder now to be fair. Teachers can't even tell them off properly cos half the kids aren't arsed or they know that teachers have limited powers. "You can't do that to me, I know my rights", blah blah blah! Need a good fucking kick up the arse half of them!
Not just half of them , all of them . The only time a human can be moulded is in their youth . If the people we entrust to teach our children are not allowed to control our children then what chance have they got ? None , that's what ! Kids know they can get with most things as they know they can't be touched . I say bring back the cane in schools , not as a weapon , but as a deterrent . What is there in place now that a child fears in the classroom ? A classmate with a knife or gun perhaps ? Definitely not the teacher and their threat of detention or extra homework . It's also up to parents to be held responsible . I reckon there should be a law where if the child plays up (and I mean in a serious way) that the parent(s) should be punished BY the law too . There are too many cases of kids being left to do what they want , because the parent(s) don't give a damn . The only time they care is if the teacher is heavy-handed with their little angel . Then they're down the school quick as a flash . I say put it back on them to teach the kids to do their homework , show up on time for school , respect the teacher and each other etc .
I'll tell you who's to blame - do-gooder , know-it-all , stick-their-nose-in-everyone's-business , politically-correct , fu*king hippy types that probably don't have a child of their own . Fu*kers ! I hate them ! :rant:
Red_hot
19-02-07, 08:58 AM
Not just half of them , all of them . The only time a human can be moulded is in their youth . If the people we entrust to teach our children are not allowed to control our children then what chance have they got ? None , that's what ! Kids know they can get with most things as they know they can't be touched . I say bring back the cane in schools , not as a weapon , but as a deterrent . What is there in place now that a child fears in the classroom ? A classmate with a knife or gun perhaps ? Definitely not the teacher and their threat of detention or extra homework . It's also up to parents to be held responsible . I reckon there should be a law where if the child plays up (and I mean in a serious way) that the parent(s) should be punished BY the law too . There are too many cases of kids being left to do what they want , because the parent(s) don't give a damn . The only time they care is if the teacher is heavy-handed with their little angel . Then they're down the school quick as a flash . I say put it back on them to teach the kids to do their homework , show up on time for school , respect the teacher and each other etc .
I'll tell you who's to blame - do-gooder , know-it-all , stick-their-nose-in-everyone's-business , politically-correct , fu*king hippy types that probably don't have a child of their own . Fu*kers ! I hate them ! :rant:
I agree with you completely! :handshake:
Red_hot
19-02-07, 09:07 AM
The family, and in particular parents, is the key. Poverty does play a part but there are great families who have fuck all and shite families who are super rich. If you give your children love and don't just stick them in a room with cash and a fecking Xbox and forget about them then you stand a chance of producing a decent human being.
The family structure is breaking down. That is where the problem lies.
Well said. :handshake: I read the other day somewhere that only a very small minority of families even sit together at a table for mealtimes. Most kids are just given a tray and then they sit in front of the tv. When I was growing up we were always made to sit at a table. OK, there might be the odd time, say if we had a chippy tea, where as a treat we were allowed to sit with it on our knee but very rarely. Sitting at the table was where we not only sat down to eat but where we talked about our day. It was one of the few times we'd all sit down at the same time and speak to one another.
A generation on, I insist my kids eat at the table and although I rarely eat at the same time as them (can't eat before about 7), I still sit with them while they are eating. They aren't allowed to just get up when they have finished and leave, they are made to sit and wait til everyone has finished. Some might think that's strict but to me, it's all about learning social skills, having good manners and above all it's about us sitting down as a family and having a meal and talking to each other!! It's little things like this which make a difference.
Mumsafan
19-02-07, 10:07 AM
Well said. :handshake: I read the other day somewhere that only a very small minority of families even sit together at a table for mealtimes. Most kids are just given a tray and then they sit in front of the tv. When I was growing up we were always made to sit at a table. OK, there might be the odd time, say if we had a chippy tea, where as a treat we were allowed to sit with it on our knee but very rarely. Sitting at the table was where we not only sat down to eat but where we talked about our day. It was one of the few times we'd all sit down at the same time and speak to one another.
A generation on, I insist my kids eat at the table and although I rarely eat at the same time as them (can't eat before about 7), I still sit with them while they are eating. They aren't allowed to just get up when they have finished and leave, they are made to sit and wait til everyone has finished. Some might think that's strict but to me, it's all about learning social skills, having good manners and above all it's about us sitting down as a family and having a meal and talking to each other!! It's little things like this which make a difference.
I often get accused of being old fashioned by people in that we always eat at the table etc. When my eldest stayed with a mate recently he was horrified to find out he was expected to eat his meal on a tray in the lad's bedroom. They spent the whole evening in the lad's bedroom with a Playstation. He said he was bored and was quite concerned that the lad's parents didn't engage them in conversation or even ask if they had homework. This lad does however have everything he could ever wish for and always has a big expensive birthday party. My son was looked at like he was mad when he said his brother had had his party at home!
The breakdown of the family has come about mainly because of economic reasons I think, but also because people want to have everything and want to have more than their neighbours. Parents are increasingly "getting rid " of their children as well - instead of enjoying the company of their children and each other, many children are given a few quid and sent out to play or sent upstairs to go on the computer or games console but that's fine cos they are out of the way! Why have children if you think like this?
I know it's old fashioned and sometimes it can be restrictive but that's what family life is all about. I am lucky that I can work from home but when my children were younger (under 6) I didn't work at all. I know everyone can't bring themselves to go without things to allow a parent to be at home, and it is difficult but I think it's worth it.
"I'll tell you who's to blame - do-gooder , know-it-all , stick-their-nose-in-everyone's-business , politically-correct , fu*king hippy types that probably don't have a child of their own . Fu*kers ! I hate them ! "
Martin - yeah I can see your point here too :haha:
I think that there is a very valid argument that part of the problem is that Britain has quite a child unfriendly culture. Unlike many European nations children are much more excluded from socialising with families which can have a beneficial effect on the behaviour of both children and parents. The idea that children "should be seen and not heard" remains a powerful influence on how people percieve children and maybe this is key to why people feel that there is a growing generational seperation in society.
tomasjj
19-02-07, 11:07 AM
Just a quick 2p...Mums has a point, and I don't think money has much to do with it. It's about respect. Many kids don't have any respect for anyone or anything - but believe they're gods gift - entitled to all there is.
If I stepped out of line in school - I got beaten up. If I stepped out of line on the street - I'd get beaten up, whether it was cheeking someone (an adult wouldn't really think twice about administering a clip around the ear - and then they'd tell your parents and they'd get at you) or pushing your luck with other kids.
I hate rules - and I'm not suggesting that a clout is the answer, but kids need to be taught to fear something, but these days they can do whatever they like and get off with it. There really isn't anything to fear, whatever they do, there's no payback.
When I was a teacher, they all feared me.
kendoddsdadsdogsdead
19-02-07, 11:31 AM
When I was a teacher, they all feared me.
From deathly boredom? :crackoff:
tomasjj
19-02-07, 11:57 AM
From deathly boredom? :crackoff:
Get in line, maggots!
:whip:
Mumsafan
19-02-07, 12:20 PM
There are no teachers at my youngest's school that they fear anymore. Most have been retired off and they're left with folk who've suddenly switched jobs at 40 odd or young girls just qualified. My son's teacher is a total waste of space and I won't even go to the parent'teacher thing to talk about my son as this plonker hasn't got a clue.
However, at my eldest's school there are many many really good teachers, old fashioned ones who get the work done and keep the kids in line.
tomasjj
19-02-07, 12:27 PM
There are no teachers at my youngest's school that they fear anymore. Most have been retired off and they're left with folk who've suddenly switched jobs at 40 odd or young girls just qualified. My son's teacher is a total waste of space and I won't even go to the parent'teacher thing to talk about my son as this plonker hasn't got a clue.
However, at my eldest's school there are many many really good teachers, old fashioned ones who get the work done and keep the kids in line.
God damn hippies in the 70s ruined schools, then the feminists took over and made it even worse.
Red_hot
19-02-07, 01:50 PM
I think that there is a very valid argument that part of the problem is that Britain has quite a child unfriendly culture. Unlike many European nations children are much more excluded from socialising with families which can have a beneficial effect on the behaviour of both children and parents. The idea that children "should be seen and not heard" remains a powerful influence on how people percieve children and maybe this is key to why people feel that there is a growing generational seperation in society.
Very much so. When I went to Madrid the kids are always with the adults in restaurants and they sit down and they behave and eat with the family. If they don't the waiters will tell them to behave. The kids would do as they were told. Noone jumped up asking the waiter 'How dare you tell my kid what to do'. He's an adult, they are a child.
Here, you can't go to nice restaurants with kids for fear of being scowled at by people with no kids. The only places you can go is the likes of Wacky Warehouse where the kids run wild and the food is shit!! If kids misbehave in nice restaurants it's cos they aren't used to sitting down at a table and just enjoying a meal instead of wanting to run off and play or watch tv. It's a sad state of affairs and god am I sounding old in this thread! :(
Mumsafan
19-02-07, 02:54 PM
Yes I always avoid places that are specially tailored for kids:haha: It's usually loads of them running around like mad or in some ball pen or the like. The food is always really bad for them as well - it's difficult to find a place that will do a child's roast for example or a childs portion of any adult meals. It's always burgers, fish fingers or congealed Spagbol.
If I want my kids to run about like mad then I'd take them to a playground, if I want them to eat then I take them to a restaurant. Obviously they are older now and eat an adults size meal anyway. We always welcome children in our pub and in the main the ones who visit do behave. I was always taken out when I was a child and expected to behave and I don't see why it should be any different for mine.
SouthAfricaRed
19-02-07, 05:20 PM
God damn hippies in the 70s ruined schools, then the feminists took over and made it even worse.
I've always said that it all went wrong the day they gave Women the Vote :haha:
SouthAfricaRed
19-02-07, 05:25 PM
Discipline in kids is the jobs of the parents not the teachers
I have two daughters, aged 6 and 19. I've never disciplined them as I believe it's not the fathers job to discipline daughters. But my wife has done a stirling job and I'm proud of the way my daughters behave.
PS: My oldest daughter came home with a Manc supporter about two years ago. After wispering in her ear that she could do better, she dumped him and now goes out with a boy that doesnt watch Football :( But it's ok I'll convert him :)
Mumsafan
19-02-07, 05:57 PM
Never trust a bloke who doesn't watch/ like football
Never trust a bloke who doesn't watch/ like football
Never trust a women who does`nt watch ugly betty/desperate housewives
Red_hot
19-02-07, 08:48 PM
Never trust a women who does`nt watch ugly betty/desperate housewives
Yay I watch both!! :woot:
MARTINOZ
19-02-07, 09:17 PM
Never trust a women who does`nt watch ugly betty/desperate housewives
Never trust a Welshman.......err....that's it really .
kendoddsdadsdogsdead
19-02-07, 09:25 PM
God damn hippies in the 70s ruined schools, then the feminists took over and made it even worse.
And one of my best behaved pupils was:
http://www.firsttouchonline.com/images/680rooney.gif
Some of the loons that left my old school and ended up dead or in nick don't surprise me at all. There must be more ASBO's given to ex pupils of De La Salle than any other school in Liverpool. Seems like the only way to earn an honest big wage is to become an 'athlete'. Just like the south americans.
RoadEnd
19-02-07, 09:30 PM
Kids today are much more exposed to media influence. Internet, Crap reality TV, 500 channels, but at the same time not "allowed" or encouraged to do the normal everyday things that kids used to do 20 years ago.
Walking to school is no more dangerous than it ever was - but few do it now. A parent told me his kids didn't walk to school because there was much more traffic on the road these days. And i replied "That's because everyones driving their kids to school"
One school has just banned kids from contact in the playground in case someone gets hurt. They have to play tig with their shadows.
Unwrap the cotton wool, let kids graze their knees, have a family dinner and bring back Little and large on saturday nights - OK perhaps not the last one.
tomasjj
19-02-07, 09:36 PM
And one of my best behaved pupils was:
http://www.firsttouchonline.com/images/680rooney.gif
Some of the loons that left my old school and ended up dead or in nick don't surprise me at all. There must be more ASBO's given to ex pupils of De La Salle than any other school in Liverpool. Seems like the only way to earn an honest big wage is to become an 'athlete'. Just like the south americans.
Now I know where he learned to swear so much.
:crackoff:
MARTINOZ
19-02-07, 09:38 PM
Kids today are much more exposed to media influence. Internet, Crap reality TV, 500 channels, but at the same time not "allowed" or encouraged to do the normal everyday things that kids used to do 20 years ago.
Walking to school is no more dangerous than it ever was - but few do it now. A parent told me his kids didn't walk to school because there was much more traffic on the road these days. And i replied "That's because everyones driving their kids to school"
One school has just banned kids from contact in the playground in case someone gets hurt. They have to play tig with their shadows.
Unwrap the cotton wool, let kids graze their knees, have a family dinner and bring back Little and large on saturday nights - OK perhaps not the last one.
:handshake: Jumpers for goalposts .
Red_hot
19-02-07, 09:38 PM
Kids today are much more exposed to media influence. Internet, Crap reality TV, 500 channels, but at the same time not "allowed" or encouraged to do the normal everyday things that kids used to do 20 years ago.
Walking to school is no more dangerous than it ever was - but few do it now. A parent told me his kids didn't walk to school because there was much more traffic on the road these days. And i replied "That's because everyones driving their kids to school"
One school has just banned kids from contact in the playground in case someone gets hurt. They have to play tig with their shadows.
Unwrap the cotton wool, let kids graze their knees, have a family dinner and bring back Little and large on saturday nights - OK perhaps not the last one.
:handshake: My kids aren't even allowed to play footy in the playground!! How pathetic is that? Bloody compensation culture.
I am going to have to think about this, but a few observations.
Respect has to be earned, it is not an absolute right. To earn respect I believe you have to show respect as a start. Perhaps it is my generation (nearly 50) who are not desreving of respect and perhaps we don't show it.
What we have done is give children, and people in general, too many rights that are made worthless without the supporting and complementary responsibilities.
Money should never be the sole focus of your life, rather people and experiences should be your principal focus. I would like to know how you can interact with people or enjoy an experience whilst listenining to a mobile phone or an Ipod?
I am a strict father, and my wife is also strict with the kids. However they are almost grown up now and they do some good things out of habit such as all sitting at the table too eat. My wife doesn't believe in smacking, but I do and they have been smacked. My wife hates it but tough that's the way it is, this is the one thing we disagree on still after nearly 23 years married. This is very Un pc I'm glad to say, as I believe political correctness is the means invented by the middle classes to avoid addressing any of the real issues we face.
And before any one thinks of it National Service is not the answer. Having said that I don't know what is.
Ramble over
lfcruleus
19-02-07, 10:08 PM
Never trust a bloke who doesn't watch/ like football
Never trust a women who does`nt watch ugly betty/desperate housewives
Man im trustworthy i do all of these, bit confused mind you.........
SouthAfricaRed
20-02-07, 06:39 AM
Never trust a bloke who doesn't watch/ like football
Here in SA Rugby/Cricket are the Favourite sports :shake:
Mumsafan
20-02-07, 01:21 PM
Here in SA Rugby/Cricket are the Favourite sports :shake:
Do you think the World Cup could change that? Or at least increase the popularity of football.
SouthAfricaRed
21-02-07, 02:23 AM
Do you think the World Cup could change that? Or at least increase the popularity of football.
I definately think it will play a Major role.
The only problem I can see is that with our exchange rate being 14/1 to the Pound and 10/1 to the Euro, very few locals will be able to afford tickets to the games. That probably will impact on the crowds attending the games.
The games will be on TV though, so I'm sure that the level of awareness will sky-rocket
Mumsafan
21-02-07, 08:25 AM
We're going and staying with Andrew's cousins. Two are football fans (one Manc and one Liverpool) and the other only likes rugby but we did educate him a bit on Christmas Eve. He lives in London now so he's getting to know more.
Neil Young
21-02-07, 04:15 PM
Its a term of endearment :handshake:
Of course. :eyebrow:
:handshake:
Neil Young
21-02-07, 04:16 PM
:confused: did i miss something here? "neil young in becoming more like real neil young*shocker."
*based on the assumption that the real neil young is moderately to severely grumpy. and i'm not even canadian/have never been to canada/know one canadian and she knows nothing about neil young.
:haha: Maybe so, maybe so.
Neil Young
21-02-07, 04:22 PM
I am going to have to think about this, but a few observations.
Respect has to be earned, it is not an absolute right. To earn respect I believe you have to show respect as a start. Perhaps it is my generation (nearly 50) who are not desreving of respect and perhaps we don't show it.
What we have done is give children, and people in general, too many rights that are made worthless without the supporting and complementary responsibilities.
Money should never be the sole focus of your life, rather people and experiences should be your principal focus. I would like to know how you can interact with people or enjoy an experience whilst listenining to a mobile phone or an Ipod?
I am a strict father, and my wife is also strict with the kids. However they are almost grown up now and they do some good things out of habit such as all sitting at the table too eat. My wife doesn't believe in smacking, but I do and they have been smacked. My wife hates it but tough that's the way it is, this is the one thing we disagree on still after nearly 23 years married. This is very Un pc I'm glad to say, as I believe political correctness is the means invented by the middle classes to avoid addressing any of the real issues we face.
And before any one thinks of it National Service is not the answer. Having said that I don't know what is.
Ramble over
I think you make a good point. The bloody baby-boomers with their property windfalls, pensions sorted out, plastic surgery and middle youth. The ones who did OK out of Thatcherism, the ones who bought up the privatisation shares, the ones who voted her in time and again. It's not just the middle class either - there are plenty of working class baby boomers who have done OK and now getting scared of youth now they're getting old, forgetting their own indiscretions and ignoring their own responsibilities.
Present company excepted of course. :handshake:
You really hate those baby boomers Neil! :haha:
I think I blamed them for something before on a thread and you were straight in there sticking it to them!
I blame the parents. :crackoff:
Neil Young
21-02-07, 05:06 PM
Yes. :D
I even started quoting my own lyrics there. :haha:
I do think no other generation has been guilty of so big a gap between their purported ideals and their actual behaviour.
If you tell me I've made my point then I'll try to lay off them for a while.
Yes. :D
I even started quoting my own lyrics there. :haha:
I do think no other generation has been guilty of so big a gap between their purported ideals and their actual behaviour.
If you tell me I've made my point then I'll try to lay off them for a while.
:handshake: Don't get me wrong - I wholeheartedly agree with you!
Lets keep on sticking it to them.
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