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Nicey
01-03-07, 07:05 AM
It is believed that we first popped up in the fossal records around 220,000 years ago. Why then is there human remains in the strata of a rock dating more than 280 Millions years old ?

(There are quite a number of images in this article so some of it might be missing or not link up)

Wrote Bill O'Brien:

"There was a time when Conrad regarded the integrity of the scientific establishment as beyond reproach. But after seven years of dealing with paleontologists and archaeologists, he said he has found them to be a devious and untrustworthy bunch whose actions in relation to him have been downright dishonest and deceitful."

"Conrad believes his discovery has frightened members of the archeological/ paleontological establishment out of their wits. They dread the truth, he says, because they know their cozy little clique will be gone with the eons. No longer will they be able to sup at the trough of Darwinism, enjoying soft jobs with huge salaries."

This is the very first specimen that Ed Conrad discovered in the Carboniferous-dated anthracite region of Pennsylvania but the Smithsonian's experts dismissed it as a concretion, a rock. However, petrified teeth were found inside the jaw-like area and an infrared scan revealed the material is "compatible with either tooth or bone in origin."


Smithsonian shenanigans!
Since the early 1980s, Ed Conrad has been accusing the Smithsonian Institution of a lack of integrity in the honest investigation of the object (pictured above) and other rock-like specimens he has found in Pennsylvania's anthracite region, including one which bears a distinct resemblance to the outline of a human skull embedded in a boulder.

In June 1981, while exploring abandoned anthracite surface-mining operations near Mahanoy City and Shenandoah, Pa., Ed accidentally discovered a large object which bore a dramatic resemblance to a large anthropoid skull.
Ed sent a color photograph to the Smithsonian Institution and had a response from Raymond Rye II, museum specialist in its Department of Paleobiology. Rye invited Ed to bring the specimen to the Smithsonian so its experts could examine it.
Rye and Conrad agreed on a date and Rye mailed Ed a National Museum of Natural History (NMNH) permit allowing his car onto Smithsonian property so he could get to its west loading dock at the rear of the museum.
On Aug. 25, 1981, Conrad and his friend Clayton Lennon, then 81, paid their visit, at which time Rye had different specialists examine Ed's specimen resembling a large skull.
However, they performed no scientific testing whatsoever while briefly examining it, then unanimously concluded it was not an anthropoid skull, definitely not bone and undoubtedly a worthless concretion (a rock).
At no time did Rye or any of the experts inform Ed that the only authoritative manner of determining whether an object is bone is by examining its cellular structure.

Ed was disappointed but respected their educated opinion and offered to leave the specimen in the Smithsonian's possession.
When one of the experts asked why, Ed explained that perhaps, if the interior of the jaw like area was examined, teeth possibly might be found. His response drew sarcastic chuckles and, consequently, he took the specimen back home.
It is interesting to note that, had the Smithsonian accepted the invitation to keep the specimen -- even if it dropped it into the nearby dumpster soon after the visitors had left -- Ed undoubtedly would've thrown in the towel and today there would be peace, not heated controversy, about Ed's claim of having discovered petrified bones, including human remains, in strata dated at more than 280 million years old.
However, instead of giving up, Ed expanded his exploration of the same strip-mined area and kept finding more and more objects which bore a similarity, in appearance, to the contour of bone. Many of them were attached to -- or embedded in -- slate (or shale), meaning they obviously were older than the material that had formed around them.
Meanwhile, Ed had penetrated the jaw-like area with a nail-like tool and, using a coat hanger fashioned into a miniature shovel, was amazed that he was able to remove soft, mud like material.
Eventually, there was a sizeable cavity inside the "jaw" and, after that portion was broken off, Ed learned that the interior contained a pair of hardened inclusions on what resembled a dental arch.
A photos was taken of one of the inclusions, then blown up and forwarded to Wilton Krogman, author of "The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine" and one of the world's foremost human comparative anatomists.
Krogman excitedly identified it as a premolar tooth, explaining that he could easily see that it possesses a pair of cusps.

An American dime is positioned near what Krogman had identified as a premolar tooth and later the author of "The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine" advised Ed that an infrared scan be performed on it.
premolar2

This is the other inclusion that was found inside the jaw like area of Ed's original specimen. A veteran dentist had taken an X-ray and, in writing, stated that it "reads" just like a tooth.

This is the jaw like interior of Ed's original specimen. The object which Wilton Krogman identified as a premolar is seen from above.
On Krogman's recommendation, the infrared scan was performed on what he had identified as a premolar at the American Medical Laboratories in Fairfax, Va., in September 1981.
However, when the graphic chart and accompanying data arrived back from the lab, Ed learned that Krogman nor the pathologist who had submitted the granules for testing possessed the expertise to interpret the scan results.
Ed even phoned American Medical Laboratories but was told that it does not interpret scans, only performs them.
Ed therefore sent a copy of the scan to Rye at the Smithsonian but his request for an interpretation was ignored.


As time passed, Ed continued to search the same locality and kept finding numerous unusual objects that bore the contour of bone, although rock-like in their brownish coloration and weight.
Approximately a year later and in the same general area _ only a short distance from where he had found the specimen resembling an anthropoid skull -- Ed discovered the large boulder in which was embedded the object that bore a distinct resemblance to a human cranium.
Actually, Ed had passed the specimen hundreds of times but only after doing a bit of study about human skulls was he able to recognize it, since the jaw like area was facing downward.

This is the boulder with the human skull protruding that Ed Conrad discovered in 1982, about a year after finding the specimen resembling the anthropoid skull. It was found in the same general area in precisely this position, with the jawbone facing downward. The Smithsonian had admitted that the protrusion does indeed resemble a human skull.
skullb

This is another view of the human skull-like specimen protruding from the boulder.

At left, a viw of the boulder from a slight angle reveals how the skull-like specimen extends above the surface. At right, here's how prehistoric human skulls sometimes are found. Note similarities to the specimen embedded in the boulder.
Ed took some photos and forwarded them to Rye at the Smithsonian, informing him it had been found in the same general locality as the specimen resembling the anthropoid skull.

Intriguing side view of the specimen resembling a human cranium in the boulder reveals that its most prominent protrusion is precisely where it occurs in various prehistoric skulls.
Rye Responds After Seeing Photos Of The Boulder


Ed Sends Smithsonian Granules from Object in Boulder

Ed favorably followed up on Rye's request and removed some granules from the rind of the object resembling a human cranium protruding from the boulder.
However, before mailing them, Ed examined the granules microscopically.
This is because, at this point in time, he had learned something about the identification of bone that he hadn't known during his visit to the Smithsonian a year before.
Ed was now aware that bone contains minuscule Haversian canals and their presence is the conclusive evidence of bone, even if the bone had petrified.
This scientific fact appears in the book, "Science in Archaeology," which states that neither age nor the petrification process can remove what are known as Haversian canals, an integral part of the cell structure of bone.
He had learned that, since the Haversian canals are actually passageways for nutrients to living bone, even the process of petrification cannot displace them because, as tiny tunnels, there was nothing there to begin with.
Therefore, prior to sending the granules, Ed's microscopic examination revealed the presence of "pinholes" in the thinnest pieces, virtually identical to cadaver bone at the same low magnification.

Rye Denies The Granules Are Bone


Examination of Cell Structure Was Ignored

On Oct. 11, 1982, Ed wrote to Rye, wondering why the Smithsonian tested for mineral composition when it was supposed to examine the cell structure of the granules that had been removed from the rind of the boulder.
After all, Ed maintained, Rye had stated in his letter: "We must do a microscopic study of the outer rind to determine if it has the structure of bone." But, according to Rye, this was not done. Or, if it was, the Smithsonian wanted to hide that fact.
Ed insists the Smithsonian had supplied an answer to a question -- about mineral composition -- that did not even apply in this particular case.
In any event, in his response to Ed's follow-up letter, Rye rather surprisingly agreed about the necessity of having the cell structure examined.
However, he offered an extremely weak and sad explanation why the Smithsonian had not done so (although only a imbecile would even think its experts had not viewed the cell structure of the granules and HAD SEEN the Haversian canals, thus confirming the material IS bone and that the object embedded in the boulder IS INDEED a human cranium).

Ed: Ground Section Wasn't Needed

First of all, Ed notes that the Smithsonian certainly didn't have to prepare a ground section to examine the cell structure since it easily could've used the granules (as he had done).
The plain and simple fact is that Rye HAD REQUESTED the granules for the specific purpose of examining the cell structure.
Meanwhile, if the preparation -- and examination -- of a ground section was so important, Ed wondered why Rye had not even mentioned it in his letter.
But even worse was Rye's explanation that, because of budget restraints, the Smithsonian could not prepare a ground section at taxpayers' expense.
Then -- same as now -- the Smithsonian's laboratories are fully equipped to prepare ground sections at minimal expense and they are made almost every day. The expense involved would have been peanuts.
It was then that Ed had very serious questions about the Smithsonian's integrity. He knew for sure that, coupled with earlier events, it wanted nothing to do with the honest investigation of any of his specimens and was playing him for a fool.
Ed had a good idea back then -- and later would become 100 percent certain (as you'll soon see) -- that the human-like skull embedded in the boulder is indeed a human skull but the Smithsonian didn't want it known, obviously because of the repercussions it would cause.
Most importantly, the Smithsonian's experts knew that if a human skull was discovered in Carboniferous strata, it means that man inhabited the earth multi-multi-millions of years before Darwin's evolutionists have put him here.
They also knew -- in one felt swoop -- it would decimate the evolutionary theory of man's origin from some lowly animals of 60-65 million years ago, since Ed's discovery means man was around long, long before.
Since established science has long maintained that coal was formed more than 280 million years ago, the Smithsonian was well aware that if it confirmed Ed's discovery, it would shake the very foundation of its most close-vested theories.
And now Ed offers proof of the Smithsonian's lack of integrity by presenting microscopic photos of granules removed from the boulder, proving that he indeed had found a petrified human skull that is, indeed, as old as coal -- if not older!
What the Smithsonian didn't want you to see
Proof2

Granules that were removed from the specimen resembling a human skull embedded in the boulder reveal Haversian canals, the telltale indicator of bone. This photo was taken at 400X, using top lighting and a dark field. It is important to note that, because of height differential, portions of the photo are blurry.



Proof1

The Haversian canals in granules from the boulder are seen at approximately 800x magnification.

Photograph of cross section of bone, showing Haversian systems. Each Haversian system is seen as a nearly round area. The light circular core of each system is the Haversian canal, through which blood vessels pass. Artwork of compact bone shows details of the Haversian systems. According to "Science in Archaeology," the Haversian canals always exist and are always identifiable in bone, despite its age or that it has been subjected to the process of petrification.
It is important to emphasize that, when Ed was getting the royal runaround from the Smithsonian in the honest investigation of his specimens, Ed brought the matter to the attention of Gus Yatron, his congressman, in 1984.
Ed pulled no punches with Yatron, accusing the Smithsonian of a lack of integrity concerning the honest investigation of his specimens.
Yatron's office then diplomatically contacted the Smithsonian on Ed's behalf and, in response, was promptly greeted with an extremely sarcastic, hostile letter from the office of its top administrator, Secretary Robert McCormick Adams.
Smithsonian's Official Response Lacks Credibility

Ed Accuses the Smithsonian of Lying

Parking proof

(Rest of letter snipped)
Respectfully,
(signed)
Ed Conrad
More evidence! Click here!


Ed Conrad is shown in January 1983 in front of a pit being dug by a power shovel to reach -- and remove -- anthracite from veins near the surface. It is between these coal seams that Ed insists he has found petrified bones, teeth and even soft organs, some of them human, proving man inhabited earth while coal was being formed.
More About the Infrared Scan: An Interpretation

As mentioned previously, Ed was quite frustrated in attempting to obtain an interpretation of the results of the infrared scan recommended by Wilton Krogman.
Not only had the Smithsonian failed to interpret the scan for him several major universities also had ignored his request.
In fact, as time passed, Ed actually had forgotten about the infrared scan.
Finally, in November 1989 -- eight full years since the test was conducted -- Ed learned by reading a newspaper article that a surgeon/medical doctor in Northeastern Pennsylvania possessed the expertise in interpreting them.
Ed politely requested if he would interpet the infrared scan (but not mentioning that it had been taken of granules from the specimen that Wilton Krogman had identified as a premolar).
He agreed to do so and presented Ed with this brief but mind boggling response:

compatible
Back

Ed Conrad's discoveries have been the subject of considerable controversy on various news groups since March 1996. Most of the heat has been generated on talk.origins but Ed has also posted regularly to sci.anthropology.

Abdul Alhazred
01-03-07, 09:10 AM
http://www.bibleandscience.com/otherviews/conrad.htm

Has plenty of photos and links regarding this, including this letter

Dear Editor,
Regarding your Focus article, "Human Bones in Coal?" (CEN 14(2):8). This
Focus article is extracted uncritically from a SCIENCE FRONTIERS article
[a clearing house of weird published pieces related to science - Ed.],
which in turn is based uncritically upon a NEWSPAPER article.
The `human bones' to which the article refers are probably a
portion of the material collected by newspaper man Ed Conrad of
Shenandoah, Pennsylvania.
A few years ago Ed sent me about a dozen pieces that he was
convinced were `mammalian bone.' Sectioning and microscopic analysis of
the two specimens he claimed to be the best among them revealed no
evidence that either was bone - or even that they were fossil material
of any sort. Internal structures were consistent with inorganic
precipitation processes, and chemical analysis and external form were
consistent with them merely being iron siderite concretions. Such
conretions are found associated with coals in many parts of the
world.
Judging from the specimens that I was able to examine, and pictures
of others, the external form of the specimens bear only superficial
resemblances to mammalian bone. Though I have not seen all of Conrad's
specimens, I suggest that his material be considered with the greatest
caution. It is very possible that most, if not all, his material is
inorganically precipitated iron siderite nodules and not fossil material
at all
Kurt P. Wise, Ph.D., Prof. of Science, Bryan College, Tennessee.

spud_gun
01-03-07, 09:51 AM
Impossible we all know that the earth was created 12,000 years ago :handshake:

Nicey
01-03-07, 09:56 AM
Yeah I have to say I am a tad skeptical about this one, still open mind and all that bollox :handshake:

Love that Bob quote:haha:

dww
01-03-07, 10:14 AM
I'm just awaiting the inevitable appearance of MattShark.

Nicey
01-03-07, 10:22 AM
:haha: Set your watch

Mattshark
01-03-07, 05:31 PM
I'm just awaiting the inevitable appearance of MattShark.

:bait:
There was a time when Conrad regarded the integrity of the scientific establishment as beyond reproach. :haha:

hahahahahahahaha
No he wasn't, he is journo and a nut job.

Nicey
01-03-07, 10:17 PM
hMMMMMMM ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgj9TWv1E1M

Mattshark
01-03-07, 10:49 PM
hMMMMMMM ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgj9TWv1E1M

Nicey mate, open mind is one thing, but not let the brain fall out.

Nicey
01-03-07, 10:58 PM
Matt, that video deals with facts. those foot prints are real, the ancient art work is real, the stories of blond hair gods from the sky across many many ancient cultures are real.

Try and break your chains and go for a walk outside the cave every now and then

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:01 PM
Matt, that video deals with facts. those foot prints are real, the ancient art work is real, the stories of blond hair gods from the sky across many many ancient cultures are real.

Try and break your chains and go for a walk outside the cave every now and then

Its a video on youtube, it is not peer reviewed work, it has no proof, those foot print things have been dealt with in real scientific papers. There is no evidence of any mammal bigger than a dog during the the era of dinosaurs.
Don't be blinded by belief.

Nicey
01-03-07, 11:03 PM
Matt THOSE FUCKING FOOT PRINTS ARE FUCKING REAL ! JESUS CHRIST ok wait there Here fucking go again

Red Chilli
01-03-07, 11:03 PM
How were the footprints dealt with Matt?

If these scientists can't be arsed to put their videos on YouTube then how are we expected to take them seriously? :D

;)

Red Chilli
01-03-07, 11:04 PM
Where did that crystal skull come from then?

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:06 PM
Matt THOSE FUCKING FOOT PRINTS ARE FUCKING REAL ! JESUS CHRIST ok wait there Here fucking go again

Yes they are dinosaur footprints, not human.

Red Chilli
01-03-07, 11:07 PM
Yes they are dinosaur footprints, not human.

Are they, wow the dinosaurs had footprints like our then?

Nicey
01-03-07, 11:11 PM
Are they, wow the dinosaurs had footprints like our then?

Yeah the Dinosaurs wore Nike :shake:

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:23 PM
Are they, wow the dinosaurs had footprints like our then?

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH710.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html

Nicey
01-03-07, 11:32 PM
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH710.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html


Human footprints lie alongside thousands of dinosaur prints on a Turkmenian plateau, a Russian newspaper has reported.

Journalist Alexander Bushev reported in the 31 January 1995 edition of Komsomolskaya Pravda (one of the most popular newspapers of the former USSR) that he had journeyed to the plateau near the village of Khodga-Pil in Turkmenistan, and had seen the fossilized prints of dinosaurs and humans together.

According to evolutionary theory, dinosaurs had become extinct long before humans first appeared on earth.

Bushev said that every metre of the half-kilometre-wide rock surface is covered by three-toed footprints �made by giant dinosaurs making their morning or evening promenade along the ancient sea-shore�. The Turkmenian plateau contains more than 3,000 footprints.

Bushev said that Turkmenian scientist Kurban Amanniyazov considers this Jurassic plateau to be at least 200 million years old.

�But the most mysterious fact�, Bushev added, �is that among the footprints of dinosaurs, footprints of bare human feet were found!� He suggested that, because �we know� that humans appeared much later than dinosaurs, there was an extraterrestrial �who walked in his swimming suit along the sea-side�.

This report about dinosaur and human footprints on Kughitang-Tau Plateau is not the first. The news was reported to readers of the English version of Moscow News in 1983 (No. 24, p. 10). This was during a period when communists strictly controlled the ideological aspect of all publications, so an article of that kind could be published only with official commentary from a representative of official State science.

The commentary they gave at that time was this:

�Who knows, but maybe our very far removed ancestors did mingle with dinosaurs?

��Science might possibly answer that in the affirmative some time in the future�, said Professor Kurban Amanniyazov, head of the expedition. �However, at present we don�t have enough grounds to say this. We�ve imprints resembling human footprints, but to date have failed to determine, with any scientific veracity, whom they belong to, after all.

��If we could prove that they do belong to a humanoid, then it would create a revolution in the science of man. Humanity would �grow older� thirty-fold and its history would be at least 150 million years long?��

The new report proves that nothing has changed. Indoctrinated by evolutionary dogma, people can either sarcastically deny existing facts that don�t match their beloved theory, or surrender to gullibility in something like an extraterrestrial or 150 million years of the history of mankind that left no evidence.

Such fiction seems to them more credible than the evident conclusion that the �millions of years� time-scale does not match the facts and needs a revision.

Note: This article is a factual account of a genuine, sober report in the Russian newspaper. However, one needs to be cautious about accepting the prints described on the basis of just this report. None of our sources has been able to obtain any further information on the prints, nor any photograph to this date. It is presented for the information of readers, and to show how these particular evolutionists interpreted evidence which seemed to contradict the whole concept.

Sergei Golovin is a graduate of Simferopol State University in the Ukraine. His specialties are laser optics and geophysics, and he has patented inventions in these fields. His research has been published in journals of the USSR Academy of Sciences, and in 1992 he founded the (creationist) Christian Scientific Center in the Ukraine.

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:43 PM
According to evolutionary theory, dinosaurs had become extinct long before humans first appeared on earth.


That is not evolutionary theory!
The idea comes from 65 million years between any evidence of humans and any evidence of dinosaurs, it only used by creationists who lack knowledge of evolution.


Nice disclaimer at the end of the article.

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:47 PM
Where did that crystal skull come from then?

They guy who claimed to have it examined (by hewlett-packard) claimed it was from Atlantis, Hewlett-packard have no record of performing the named tests upon the skull.

Red Chilli
01-03-07, 11:48 PM
They guy who claimed to have it examined (by hewlett-packard) claimed it was from Atlantis, Hewlett-packard have no record of performing the named tests upon the skull.

So doesn't exist? I don't know what you're getting at. That skull must have come from somewhere?

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:49 PM
So doesn't exist? I don't know what you're getting at. That skull must have come from somewhere?
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it could have been carved 5000 years ago, it would be impressive as a feat but that is all, it would just be impressive.

Red Chilli
01-03-07, 11:50 PM
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it could have been carved 5000 years ago, it would be impressive as a feat but that is all, it would just be impressive.

It would be remarkable if it was carved 5000 years ago IMO.

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:53 PM
It would be remarkable if it was carved 5000 years ago IMO.

Yes but it would show nothing of aliens would it. That is a giant piece of conjecture, which the video is full of.

Nicey
01-03-07, 11:55 PM
There are no tool marks on that skull, even under microscope, its carved from one peice of crystal, thats not impressiive, thats something that does not fit into the the puzzle. You could not make that 100 years ago let alone 5000

Nicey
01-03-07, 11:56 PM
Yes but it would show nothing of aliens would it. That is a giant piece of conjecture, which the video is full of.\


Most of Historical record is conjecture

Mattshark
01-03-07, 11:56 PM
There are no tool marks on that skull, even under microscope, its carved from one peice of crystal, thats not impression, thats something that does not fit into the the puzzle. You could not make that 100 years ago let alone 5000

See no evidence for such tests, they where unfounded claims by the man who claimed it was from atlantis.


Quick update, was found to be modern and not 5000 years old by a 2005 study by the British Muesum and Cardiff University.

Nicey
02-03-07, 12:28 AM
Matt you snigger at the very idea of Atlantis which incidentally it is thought as not a actual world under the sea but a land mass currently under water after the last great fllood and home to a purported advanced civilization, a place which Plato spoke about at length and is mentioned in various religious scripture s.

If just even a small porpotion of any of this is true, 1000's of "Scientists" would be out of Job, countless research grants gone over night, most of this stuff is not in the best interest of the majority of the Scientific commuinity to accept. Just because its not peer reviewed does not mean its not true.

I am privy to the shower of muppets that is a huge proportion of the scientific community, if its not on the agenda its not going to be spoken about. My wife has produced some leading research in the area of Genetics and had her work was rejected by a peer review soley on the basis of global scientific politics.

The Scientific community are always the last people to accept change, take the most recent example of the Noble Prize winner Dr Barry Marshall's work on ulcers, when he first suggested they were because of batcteria 20 years ago he was laughed of the stage by "Scientists"

Science does not equate to the truth, Scientists are not all clever, Science is not always right and Science cannot always give you the answers. To think if science cannot explain it means its not real is naive in the extreme

Nicey
02-03-07, 12:36 AM
To expand of the peer review politics line, don’t want you thinking my better half’s work was just plain shite. My wife is published in Nature etc has over 100 papers published, was genuinely thought of a very good scientist in her field when she was actively involved in genetic research. The paper in question was mistakenly sent to either the Universities American or French counterparts by mistake. I say mistake because there was a rivalry between the two teams which goes a long way back and this particular research team just blantly rejects anything coming from this University. Which they did again that time, that paper went on to be published and was very well received by the rest of the community.

Science nor scientific method is not all its cracked up to be.

Mattshark
02-03-07, 01:03 AM
Matt you snigger at the very idea of Atlantis which incidentally it is thought as not a actual world under the sea but a land mass currently under water after the last great fllood and home to a purported advanced civilization, a place which Plato spoke about at length and is mentioned in various religious scripture s.

If just even a small porpotion of any of this is true, 1000's of "Scientists" would be out of Job, countless research grants gone over night, most of this stuff is not in the best interest of the majority of the Scientific commuinity to accept. Just because its not peer reviewed does not mean its not true.

I am privy to the shower of muppets that is a huge proportion of the scientific community, if its not on the agenda its not going to be spoken about. My wife has produced some leading research in the area of Genetics and had her work was rejected by a peer review soley on the basis of global scientific politics.

The Scientific community are always the last people to accept change, take the most recent example of the Noble Prize winner Dr Barry Marshall's work on ulcers, when he first suggested they were because of batcteria 20 years ago he was laughed of the stage by "Scientists"

Science does not equate to the truth, Scientists are not all clever, Science is not always right and Science cannot always give you the answers. To think if science cannot explain it means its not real is naive in the extreme

Who said I believe everything about science? All I said was there is a lack of evidence, if there is no evidence for it why should not question it? Why have a go at me for questioning it? Why have a go at me if I find much stronger evidence debunking something?
Don't patronise me over this, I know about scientific politics and I know about the myth of Atlantis, I know about Plato. I know some scientists can be arseholes just like many people in other fields can be arseholes, doesn't make the vast majority in the field arseholes or that you should take you dislike of biologists out on me. If you don't me posting evidence to counter what you have put that is your problem or is it a case of how dare I question some "mysteries" which ignores evidence or is not in in full command of most of the information. It however would not put thousands of scientists out of work at all, that is complete bollocks, it would mean work would have to be re-evaluated that is all, you must also remember that you can post any bollocks in a non-reviewed piece of work, like you can put any old nonsense on a website in a newspaper on film or in a book, surely blindly believing in that is far more naive?
With regards to your wife I can not comment as I have not seen her work and genetics is not my strongest field.

Mattshark
02-03-07, 01:04 AM
To expand of the peer review politics line, don’t want you thinking my better half’s work was just plain shite. My wife is published in Nature etc has over 100 papers published, was genuinely thought of a very good scientist in her field when she was actively involved in genetic research. The paper in question was mistakenly sent to either the Universities American or French counterparts by mistake. I say mistake because there was a rivalry between the two teams which goes a long way back and this particular research team just blantly rejects anything coming from this University. Which they did again that time, that paper went on to be published and was very well received by the rest of the community.

Science nor scientific method is not all its cracked up to be.
It however is far better than the alternative, I never thought anything about your wifes work as I have never read it to judge (and I hate molecular biology), though being published in nature is impressive. Rivalry in science is nothing new sadly, people are still people, but that doesn't mean that science is wrong either, but human nature will always slow it down.

Btw don't spose she did any work on mustelid phylogeny did she?

Nicey
02-03-07, 01:33 AM
Apologies mate, I get a little carried away now and then. The wife worked on the Rhesus blood group I think, way over my head mate.

Mattshark
02-03-07, 01:45 AM
Apologies mate, I get a little carried away now and then. The wife worked on the Rhesus blood group I think, way over my head mate.
No problem mate :handshake:
Mine too, I currently work with bitey squeaky otters from S.E Asia. Cute, but bloody irritating when they have whinged at you for an hour and a half.

Jimthered
02-03-07, 05:04 AM
Science nor scientific method is not all its cracked up to be.

This is something I have come to agree with a lot recently. For want of a better description I have decided to educate myself a little more the last few months , for the most part for my own benefit, but also becuase my kids homework is getting harder and harder. A consequence of this is that they are getting smarter and the answers to their questions can no longer be answerd with "thats magic that causes that son" :)


Seems to me sometimes that science comes with too many "if's" and "yet proven" or "based on the theory" , yet it is presented by some as facts. Not always the scientists fault, usually the media blowing things out of proportion. Intrestingly enough though I often see examples or read articles where the scientists are too busy arguing over their own facts and disputing those of others to actually draw any conclusions.

Same with history, always seems in dispute .

Neil Young
02-03-07, 09:45 AM
"Science", as both an institution, a method and a collected body of thought, is very far from perfect. For all its faults (which I would agree need to be borne in mind at all times) it is, IMO, far better than the alternative.

Nicey
02-03-07, 09:49 AM
"Science", as both an institution, a method and a collected body of thought, is very far from perfect. For all its faults (which I would agree need to be borne in mind at all times) it is, IMO, far better than the alternative.

Cant argue with that but mainly because we have not found a suitable alternative yet, we will one day. :handshake:

Mattshark
02-03-07, 01:16 PM
This is something I have come to agree with a lot recently. For want of a better description I have decided to educate myself a little more the last few months , for the most part for my own benefit, but also becuase my kids homework is getting harder and harder. A consequence of this is that they are getting smarter and the answers to their questions can no longer be answerd with "thats magic that causes that son" :)


Seems to me sometimes that science comes with too many "if's" and "yet proven" or "based on the theory" , yet it is presented by some as facts. Not always the scientists fault, usually the media blowing things out of proportion. Intrestingly enough though I often see examples or read articles where the scientists are too busy arguing over their own facts and disputing those of others to actually draw any conclusions.


Same with history, always seems in dispute .

The media does indeed like to blow things out of proportion. However the term theory in science is not taken lightly, you need a lot of evidence and support to become a theory and it is only used for concepts that are not provable (or at least very difficult to prove) because of various factors such as no one lives long enough to check properly or we don't have the means to go and check.

Cant argue with that but mainly because we have not found a suitable alternative yet, we will one day. Not sure we see an alternative, but I'm sure we will see improvements to technique and methodology, however humans nature and a tendency to become motre stubborn and unwilling accept change as we get older will always slow down progress of advancement (as well as things like governemtns just blatantly lying)

Jimthered
02-03-07, 02:27 PM
However the term theory in science is not taken lightly, you need a lot of evidence and support to become a theory and it is only used for concepts that are not provable (or at least very difficult to prove) because of various factors such as no one lives long enough to check properly or we don't have the means to go and check.


Why is 'Darwins theory of evoloution' still called a theory then ?

When I was in school ( long time ago I admit :) ) it was taught as accepted fact .

Mattshark
02-03-07, 04:14 PM
Why is 'Darwins theory of evoloution' still called a theory then ?

When I was in school ( long time ago I admit :) ) it was taught as accepted fact .

It is accepted theory, with huge amounts of supporting evidence and no one (despite the best efforts of fundies) has come up with anything to disprove it or a suitable alternative theory. It would be extremely difficult to prove as fact as no one lives long enough to check, evolution is not a quick process, it takes about a million years to alter one protien. Evolution it's self however is a fact, organisms do change, this has been seen, it the speciation from evolution that is not proven however it has overwhelming evidence to support it.

Jimthered
02-03-07, 04:25 PM
It is accepted theory, with huge amounts of supporting evidence and no one (despite the best efforts of fundies) has come up with anything to disprove it or a suitable alternative theory. It would be extremely difficult to prove as fact as no one lives long enough to check, evolution is not a quick process, it takes about a million years to alter one protien. Evolution it's self however is a fact, organisms do change, this has been seen, it the speciation from evolution that is not proven however it has overwhelming evidence to support it.


I get what your saying. I have been reading in to a lot of the news over here about teaching evolution in the schools but not the Religious theories. As far as I can tell it is because science admits that it may be wrong and is subject to change when new evidence becomes apparent, whereas the religious teachings are cast in stone if you like.

I was reading about it last month, the criteria needed for something to be established as aceptable theory , one of the conditions is that it may change after further examination.

Or something like that anyway. :)

Mattshark
02-03-07, 04:38 PM
I get what your saying. I have been reading in to a lot of the news over here about teaching evolution in the schools but not the Religious theories. As far as I can tell it is because science admits that it may be wrong and is subject to change when new evidence becomes apparent, whereas the religious teachings are cast in stone if you like.

I was reading about it last month, the criteria needed for something to be established as aceptable theory , one of the conditions is that it may change after further examination.

Or something like that anyway. :)The other thing about religous ideas is they are scientifically baseless, they have no evidence that supports them and they can not be scientifically analysised. Hence they do not belong in a classroom. Unfortuanatly a lot of evolutionary biologists have had to spend a lot of time defending the idea scientifically from religous attack because they feel it undermines the bible, not because it is a bad theory. The theory of gravity never has these problems.

Neil Young
02-03-07, 05:50 PM
I was under the impression that, outside mathematical proofs, nothing can be proved, only disproved.

The fact there have been so many attempts (including it seems the one at the start of this thread) to disprove the Theory of Evolution and none has been successful suggests that it's right. There are other strong indications of that - for instance, its ability to predict later related discoveries.

I also thought that theories are always theories, they never become facts. The good ones are held to be (largely) correct explanations (e.g. Darwinism) while the bad ones are disproved and thrown into the bin as failed theories (e.g. Lamarckism).

dww
03-03-07, 09:15 AM
"Science", as both an institution, a method and a collected body of thought, is very far from perfect. For all its faults (which I would agree need to be borne in mind at all times) it is, IMO, far better than the alternative.

Cant argue with that but mainly because we have not found a suitable alternative yet, we will one day. :handshake:

I was under the impression that, outside mathematical proofs, nothing can be proved, only disproved.


While I accept the flaws of science as an institution and that the implimentation will always to some extend be subject to question, however I'm not quite sure what you would ask for in an alternative that can't be accomodated within the over-riding paradigms of either Popperian science or the taxonomic data collection which is also contained within the church of science.

Inherent in the inability to prove anything other than with abstract axioms is the fact that we are forced to use deductive reasoning, no matter what we do. Which to me seems like the foundation upon which we have built science. Co-opting mathematics to give us a greater level of understanding that allows us to formalise the logical flow from our assumptions to our predictive statements.

I'm not sure what sort of idea could not be incorporated in this framework. At least in the way that say Quantum Mechanics is, where we effectively have to admit the limits of what can be know.

Or do you have some other aim for your alternative to science than trying to gain a unifying picture of things which allows us to see the connections between seemingly disperate things?

Beastie Suarez
03-03-07, 09:24 AM
How were the footprints dealt with Matt?

If these scientists can't be arsed to put their videos on YouTube then how are we expected to take them seriously? :D

;)One of the funniest lines I've read for some time:haha: :handshake:

Abro100
03-03-07, 09:38 AM
Maybe he dug into a deep rock and died?

Neil Young
03-03-07, 10:19 AM
While I accept the flaws of science as an institution and that the implimentation will always to some extend be subject to question, however I'm not quite sure what you would ask for in an alternative that can't be accomodated within the over-riding paradigms of either Popperian science or the taxonomic data collection which is also contained within the church of science.

Inherent in the inability to prove anything other with abstract axioms is the fact that we are forced to use deductive reasoning, no matter what we do. Which to me seems like the foundation upon which we have built science. Co-opting mathematics to give us a greater level of understanding that allows us to formalise the logical flow from our assumptions to our predictive statements.

I'm not sure what sort of idea could not be incorporated in this framework. At least in the way that say Quantum Mechanics is, where we effectively have to admit the limits of what can be know.

Or do you have some other aim for your alternative to science than trying to gain a unifying picture of things which allows us to see the connections between seemingly disperate things?
I hope you're talking to Nicey not to me. If not there's been a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.

:handshake:

dww
03-03-07, 11:06 AM
I hope you're talking to Nicey not to me. If not there's been a misunderstanding somewhere along the line.

:handshake:

Yep, I quoted you initially to give him context. Wrote a really long post about the nature of proof and Popperian ideas of science and the Vienna Circle. Then Firefox crashed and it turned out I couldn't be bothered to type it all in again but the second quote from you was still reasonably relevant so I didn't delete it.