The greatest raid

[disco]

Did anyone watch this on BBC 2 last night - British Commandos and Navy on a suicide raid of a strategic dry dock in France.

Absolutely incredible courage.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_stnazaire2.html

[Jimthered]

Did anyone watch this on BBC 2 last night - British Commandos and Navy on a suicide raid of a strategic dry dock in France.

Absolutely incredible courage.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_stnazaire2.html

Fantastic stuff.

Reminds me of those comics I used to read as a kid about the commandos. I was convinced that the entire German army could only speak two sentences during the war, "ach mein gott" and " achtung Tommy "

[nebbers]

Fair play to Clarkson, he can tell a story can't he.

Fair play to that German destroyer captain who made sure some of the British got the recognition they deserve too.

Was taking to my wife about whether that sort of thing could be done these days. She was the opinion that the soldiers would fall over something and sue the army for it.

I am confident that the British army at least could still pull something like this off. Especially the Marines or SAS.

Could the Americans? Ha :haha:

[disco]

That's the incredible thing - the SAS could probably do it (although I'm not convinced you could ever sanction a sorty which basically guaranteed a 50% death rate!) - but these were ordinary hard working people who'd signed up for the commandos :handshake:

[nebbers]

The difference in that I suppose is that WW2 was a 'proper' war, where the future of our country depended on it.

Asking soldiers to give their life for political (with a small p) wars is another issue... and another thread.

[disco]

The difference in that I suppose is that WW2 was a 'proper' war, where the future of our country depended on it.

Asking soldiers to give their life for political (with a small p) wars is another issue... and another thread.

Yes, crossed my mind :handshake:

Still, I'd be surprised if we'd do it today even in a 'proper' World War, but nowadays we could probably hit the gate from the air. :handshake:

[nebbers]

Still, I'd be surprised if we'd do it today even in a 'proper' World War, but nowadays we could probably hit the gate from the air. :handshake:

It would be the wrong gate though!

[JRG]

The men in Kilts on that raid were from The Liverpool Scottish and was the last time a coherent body of men wore the Kilt in action. The bravery of those men beggars belief, the slaughter was terrible.
This is the kind of raid the Royal marines would be tasked with these days, too big to be a specila forces op, it requires a lot more firepower than the usual SF raid is taked for.

[warrenpeace]

The part where they had to get over an exposed bridge under machine gun fire to get off the island, so they just got together in a big bunch and ran for it was amazing and humbling to watch. It's the sort of thing where noone could say if they would have the bottle for it or not until they got there. I guess team spirit and peer pressure must have been enormous.

[Helios Creed]

Did anyone watch this on BBC 2 last night - British Commandos and Navy on a suicide raid of a strategic dry dock in France.

Absolutely incredible courage.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_stnazaire2.html

Don't tell me how it ends, I recorded it.... did we win? :)

[mick the click]

Don't tell me how it ends, I recorded it.... did we win? :)

Yes. It has been celebrated quite widely for some time. It is also the reason I am not typing this in Kraut. :handshake:

[Helios Creed]

Yes. It has been celebrated quite widely for some time. It is also the reason I am not typing this in Kraut. :handshake:

Yay! :rock:

[SouthAfricaRed]

The Real Heroes were in WW1. Trench Warfare were the pits. They were ordered to storm the Enemy trenches to keep the Enemy busy whilst reinforcements were landing on the Beaches, knowing that everyone would be killed :rolleyes:

I wonder How many would obey those orders today?

[Helios Creed]

The Real Heroes were in WW1. Trench Warfare were the pits. They were ordered to storm the Enemy trenches to keep the Enemy busy whilst reinforcements were landing on the Beaches, knowing that everyone would be killed :rolleyes:

I wonder How many would obey those orders today?

Yeah, trenches were the pits. :handshake:

[nobbylad]

I watched this with my youngest son. He is constantly amazed by the bravery and selflessness shown by one of the greatest bands of heroes in history.

WW2 vets rock :rock: and should always be remembered and regarded in the highest order...FACT!


:handshake:

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

I have some relatives who fought in WWII, but were all on the other side, due to my family having reserved occupations and the wrong kind of surname anyway.

[tomasjj]

I have some relatives who fought in WWII, but were all on the other side, due to my family having reserved occupations and the wrong kind of surname anyway.

Really?
Do you know much about what they did during the war?
Did they survive?

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Really?
Do you know much about what they did during the war?
Did they survive?

You won't be too happy with at least one of them. :shake:

Otto von Bargen Nordland Division Hauptsturmführer, born in Kiel and survived the war permanently on the Ostfront and the last days in Berlin. Died in the 60's and got his details from a possible veteran in Norway. The guy was understandably coy about his history, considering the amount of Waffen SS nutters on the net these days.

http://scouseontoast.blogspot.com/2007/01/otto-von-bargen.html

Hans von Bargen Jagdbomberfloeger, born Bad Malente Schleswig Holstein round the corner from me. Died July 1944 somewhere over Italy (?) after being awarded the Knight's Cross.

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/person/d/air/00957.jpg

Werner von Bargen, born in Wischhafen Niedersachsen. Allgemeine SS member and active in Brussels before and during the war as foreign ambassador for Germany. Got through the Nürnberg trials and emerged unscathed to become the Federal government's ambassador to Libya. Died in the 1980's at his home after becoming a local historian. There is also a transcript from the trials linking maybe him, or another relative with the 'soap' scandal. Since I'm not a member of the historical society that published them, I can't find the full script.

Due to the family name, my dad's part of the family suffered during the war in their Bootle home. All the German artefacts were either buried or burnt during the war and never found again.

[tomasjj]

You won't be too happy with at least one of them. :shake:

Otto von Bargen Nordland Division Hauptsturmführer, born in Kiel and survived the war permanently on the Ostfront and the last days in Berlin. Died in the 60's and got his details from a possible veteran in Norway. The guy was understandably coy about his history, considering the amount of Waffen SS nutters on the net these days.

http://scouseontoast.blogspot.com/2007/01/otto-von-bargen.html

Hans von Bargen Jagdbomberfloeger, born Bad Malente Schleswig Holstein round the corner from me. Died July 1944 somewhere over Italy (?) after being awarded the Knight's Cross.

http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/person/d/air/00957.jpg

Werner von Bargen, born in Wischhafen Niedersachsen. Allgemeine SS member and active in Brussels before and during the war as foreign ambassador for Germany. Got through the Nürnberg trials and emerged unscathed to become the Federal government's ambassador to Libya. Died in the 1980's at his home after becoming a local historian. There is also a transcript from the trials linking maybe him, or another relative with the 'soap' scandal. Since I'm not a member of the historical society that published them, I can't find the full script.

Due to the family name, my dad's part of the family suffered during the war in their Bootle home. All the German artefacts were either buried or burnt during the war and never found again.

Thanks for that, mate.
Interesting. The soap scandal is not nice though... :shake:

My family history is not as exciting when it comes to WW2.
They were all Norwegian farmers. Dull.

However, my wifes family is partially from Germany.
Her paternal grandmother is from the Hanover region, and her family were friends with Keitl amongst others. :o
Apparently then also were friends of someone behind the assasination attempt in 44, but she didn't recall the names. (She is 95 or so now.)

My wifes great grandfather was an officer in the Cavalry and fought at Verdun and more. This is probably why they had all these friends high up in the army. Apparently, the Cavalry/riding school near Hanover was very renowned.

Also her maternal grandfather fought in the Gudbrandsdalen in the Norwegian Army during the German invasion. He drove the ambulance. He never told me much about it when I have visited, only that the Germans were too strong to hold back.

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

I met Moritz von Stauffenberg a few times before he died in a car crash in Hamburg. His family still lives around Blankenese, descendents of the surviviors after the '44 plot. A girl I taught from Norway had a grandfather (Rustad) who flew with the RAF as a navigator. He was honoured by the government after the war's end. Kid's in my last school would bring in their grandfather's photo albums and there were some amazing shots in them if you have an interest in that kind of thing. One guy's grandfather would host Dönitz when he was in Hamburg. And where I am living/working now was the seat of Dönitz government before capitulation. The Schloß was also a NAPOLA during the war, and the Kunsthistoriker has some decent photos of the daily life of the future leaders of the 1000 year Reich!

[tomasjj]

Sounds interesting with all those old photoalbums.
I am quite surprised at how many of the Germans I have heard about had some sort of connection to big shot Nazi/Army people.

When I lived in Brest, France, I met an old timer who had fought at Narvik in the battle there. He was part of the French troops there.
Sadly, I didn't get to speak to him properly.

[JRG]

Once met a former Cpatian (Hauptsturmfuhrer) from the !st SS Liebstandarte in Kassel. He made no bones about his past but he and his friends got very agitated when I told them that in my opinion thet ware not soldiers, ratyher that they were a stain on the noble profession of arms. I served in two regimenst in the Army, both of which had men murdered by SS troops in WWII. When I told them about this and mentioned a few atrocities committed by the 1st SS they shut up. Howvere at least he had the guts to admit he had served with the Waffen SS.

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Once met a former Cpatian (Hauptsturmfuhrer) from the !st SS Liebstandarte in Kassel. He made no bones about his past but he and his friends got very agitated when I told them that in my opinion thet ware not soldiers, ratyher that they were a stain on the noble profession of arms. I served in two regimenst in the Army, both of which had men murdered by SS troops in WWII. When I told them about this and mentioned a few atrocities committed by the 1st SS they shut up. Howvere at least he had the guts to admit he had served with the Waffen SS.

The British Army has a strange affair with the history of the Waffen SS. On one hand, during the Normandy invasion and Operation Goodwood several cases of murdered prisoners on both sides have been reported. The Canadians also fought a raging battle with elements of the 12. SS. Pz.Div. and both sides had a spate of shooting prisoners. After the war, the Ardennes Offensive has been studied as a model for an effective tank batallion manouvere, and veterans such as Willi Fey and Herbert Walther struck up friendships with their battlefield rivals. Even Kurt Meyer was paid the respect due an Officer during his capture and incarceration. Regardless of the Nürnberg Process finding the Waffen SS an illegal army, how many of the eventual 900,000 were NSDAP members? Further, how many were forced into conscription to fill holes in depleted divisions from regular Heer or Marine divisions? Even the Leibstandarte before June '44 was fielding recruits way below the standards imposed pre war.

[JRG]

Absloutely right about NSDAP membership and conscripts in the late war but look at the atrocities committed in that stage of the war (Malmedy and the slaughter of belgian civilians in the Ardennes) it is still no excuse. Their prowess on the battle field still doesn't make up for their murderous attitude, nor the profligate waste of men on the battlefield.

No not Soldiers for me despite Paul Hausser's plea that they were soldiers like all the rest.

[tomasjj]

Well, I guess that not all Waffen SS "soldiers" were monsters, even if many, if not most, were. It wouldn't be naive to think there were some genuine soldiers in their units, who behaved according to solidiers honourable codes.

[JRG]

Well, I guess that not all Waffen SS "soldiers" were monsters, even if many, if not most, were. It wouldn't be naive to think there were some genuine soldiers in their units, who behaved according to solidiers honourable codes.

I believe the phrase you need is "The exception that proves the rule."

The 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisons did show some homourable behaviour in ARnhem when the British Paratroopers fought like lions. However the same bravery from helpless civilians or Russian soldiers would have resulted in summary executions at best.

No, the apologists argument in any form does not wash with me I'm afraid.

[tomasjj]

I believe the phrase you need is "The exception that proves the rule."

The 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisons did show some homourable behaviour in ARnhem when the British Paratroopers fought like lions. However the same bravery from helpless civilians or Russian soldiers would have resulted in summary executions at best.

No, the apologists argument in any form does not wash with me I'm afraid.

No, I was not looking for the exception what proves the rule. I just thought that kendogs pointed out some facts above that sort of ruled out a generalisation of the kind you put forward. That does not mean that I believe SS didn't commit atrocities on a large scale though.

[Jimthered]

I believe the phrase you need is "The exception that proves the rule."

The 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisons did show some homourable behaviour in ARnhem when the British Paratroopers fought like lions. However the same bravery from helpless civilians or Russian soldiers would have resulted in summary executions at best.

No, the apologists argument in any form does not wash with me I'm afraid.

I know this is the serious forum, but hell thats funny.



As you were.

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

My view is that the SS, being a paramilitary army were prone to attracting elements who would besmirch the honour of their Prussian counterparts the Reichswehr. The fluid nature of transfers between divisions and companies did nothing to favour the elan of the first 5 divisions. Later ad hoc divisions would drag even more unsuitable soldiers into a very high profile private army. Each division from the 38/39 available at the war's end had its own accusation of having carried out atrocities, with the exception of 2 or 3 younger divisions. The Waffen SS was the only army during WWII to see its own soldiers mutiny. Of the near million combatants, a small percentage were responisble for the atrocities. The results of the Nürnberg process condemned all Waffen SS combatants to the same fate. Yet certain actions of the liberating armies against Waffen SS soldiers went unpunished. Discussing the actions of the Waffen SS objectively does not an apologist make. Understandably Corps honour runs thick in the blood, but it is my understanding that many high ranking British soldiers also objectively admired the elan of their Waffen SS counterparts.

[Jimthered]

Fantastic stuff.

Reminds me of those comics I used to read as a kid about the commandos. I was convinced that the entire German army could only speak two sentences during the war, "ach mein gott" and " achtung Tommy "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6599139.stm

Superb stuff...

Must call home and get someone to pick me up a copy . :)

[Colemere]

They have a documentary on the History channel like every other month...

Not that i watch the history channel:source: