How many

[Craig_H]

Points ahead and at what stage in the title race would it be possible to rule Man Utd out of it? Or is that something you couldnt ever do?

Reason i ask is that we're currently 8 points ahead (albeit having played one extra game) and their next two games are away at Villa and away at City, either side of a trip to Villarreal.

People often talk about us being 10-15 points behind by December and say we're out of it, reasoning that the leaders wont lose 4 or 5 games in the 2nd half of the campaign.

Would the same apply to Man Utd if, for example, they only took 1-3 points from the next two games, while us and Chelsea won both?

I'd be interested in people's views.

[Red_Polo]

I think people get too carried away with saying a team is in or out of the title race - each result at this stage can only really make things a lot harder or a little easier.

If they drop more points in the coming games then they will certainly be facing a much harder task than they ought to have been, I'm not sure how anyone could really rule them out though.

[-V-]

I hope we can maintain this lead over them by the time we move into late december. If the World Club Championships cause them some fatigue with travelling and playing those games then they might well struggle through the xmas and new year fixtures and thus leaving us with a big enough lead to rule them out.

Personally i think Chelsea have an extremely strong squad and it will be extremely difficult for us to beat them to the title. By January i think and i hope it will be a two horse race between us and Chelsea with Man Utd playing catch up

[pondus]

I read an article on Teamtalk, where it was mentioned that the scum face all the 10 highest finishers in the league from last year, away from home, before Christmas. Don't think we could rule them out even if they were 12 points behind after the Christmas period.

[Craig_H]

I think people get too carried away with saying a team is in or out of the title race - each result at this stage can only really make things a lot harder or a little easier.

If they drop more points in the coming games then they will certainly be facing a much harder task than they ought to have been, I'm not sure how anyone could really rule them out though.

I know what you mean and i'd tend to agree, it's a very dangerous to rule them out and arguably not possible.

Going back to the theory of how likely it is for us and/or Chelsea to lose, say, 4 games out of the final 20 however, you could foresee a situation whereby you'd say that it would take a catastrophe to give Man Utd a realistic chance of winning it. For that to happen though, they'd need to lose a couple of games between now and Christmas, or draw 3.

[Craig_H]

I read an article on Teamtalk, where it was mentioned that the scum face all the 10 highest finishers in the league from last year, away from home, before Christmas. Don't think we could rule them out even if they were 12 points behind after the Christmas period.

On paper, i agree with you but it's very difficult to close a big gap, regardless of having 'easier' games left to play because that kind of points gap does two very significant things.

Firstly, it puts enormous pressure on the side doing the chasing, because they basically have no margin for error left, and everyone knows that one mistake could be fatally costly.

Secondly, for the teams in pole position, there is a greater impetus to keep their momentum going, knowing that every win could be the one which puts the chasing team out of reach. That's the kind of mentality that wins titles IMO, the one which starts to see the finish line far ahead in the distance and then goes for the kill by winning game after game.

[Craig_H]

Just for reference purposes, Man Utd's next 8 league games:

Stoke (h)
Villa (a)
City (a)
Sunderland (h)
Spurs (a)
Stoke (a)
Middlesbrough (h)
Chelsea (h)

That takes them upto mid January and there's a couple of potential banana skins in that lot. Villa, City and Spurs are 3 tricky away games.

[Guest]

Too early to say anything.

The title race is never over until a team is mathematically ruled out.

[slimbimjim]

I would say Chelsea Middlesborough, Spurs and Villa are the tougher games there.

I think they can deal comfortably with Delap's throw-ins but they have been a bit comical with their defensive approach the past few games.

I'd go with Fredo and say no one can be ruled out until it's mathematically impossible. Go ask Kevin Keegan about leading the league by a big margin...

[The_weatherman]

I read an article on Teamtalk, where it was mentioned that the scum face all the 10 highest finishers in the league from last year, away from home, before Christmas. Don't think we could rule them out even if they were 12 points behind after the Christmas period.

But before Christmas? That's almost half of the season, so of course they will have met most of the strong teams, they will have met most of the teams.

[Neil Young]

But before Christmas? That's almost half of the season, so of course they will have met most of the strong teams, they will have met most of the teams.
The key words are "away from home".

[Elvoz]

they always win at villa and citeh are shite right now

i personally think its a two horse race but i wouldnt rule them out til march

[Matt]

they always win at villa and citeh are shite right now

i personally think its a two horse race but i wouldnt rule them out til march

:handshake:

Can never rule out the scum - they know exactly what it takes to win and are easily capable of going on a massive unbeaten streak.

I still think the title is Chelsea's to lose though.

[Neil Young]

Even secretly harbouring hopes that Man United won't challenge is a triumph of hope over experience.

The reason there are doubts about Arsenal's challenge is that they haven't won anything for years and they've already lost to Hull, Stoke and someone else (Bolton?). So the doubt is that if they're capable of losing those games then how many others might they lose - answer: pretty much any game.

Man United are current champions and, while they have dropped points against us, Arsenal and Chelsea, they still have all three home matches to come. They're five points behind if they win their game in hand.

I hate to say this but fredo is right.

[Rich]

United have played their 3 worst away fixtures already - even if they did shite in them.

They know that if they beat us, Arsenal, and Chelsea at Old Trafford they'll be in the mixer.

I wouldn't be happy that United are out of it until there is a good 15 points margin! :D

[Matt]

Even secretly harbouring hopes that Man United won't challenge is a triumph of hope over experience.

The reason there are doubts about Arsenal's challenge is that they haven't won anything for years and they've already lost to Hull, Stoke and someone else (Bolton?). So the doubt is that if they're capable of losing those games then how many others might they lose - answer: pretty much any game.

Man United are current champions and, while they have dropped points against us, Arsenal and Chelsea, they still have all three home matches to come. They're five points behind if they win their game in hand.

I hate to say this but fredo is right.

I think you need a strong coffee and a sit down.

[Neil Young]

I think you need a strong coffee and a sit down.
:haha:

[Craig_H]

United have played their 3 worst away fixtures already - even if they did shite in them.

They know that if they beat us, Arsenal, and Chelsea at Old Trafford they'll be in the mixer.

I wouldn't be happy that United are out of it until there is a good 15 points margin! :D

Likewise though us, Chelsea and Arsenal also know that if we go to Old Trafford and come away with something, it'll make it incredibly difficult for Man Utd.

Your 15 points thing is kinda the point i was making, along with pointing out that if a couple of things go against them in the next few weeks, that 15 point gap isnt totally beyond the realms of possibility.

[Kenneth]

If they're 10 points behind with 3 games to go, I'll write them off.

[pondus]

If they're 10 points behind with 3 games to go, I'll write them off.

Naah, this is manu were talking about, I guess the FA could pull some strings to make sure they won it anyway.

[Neil Young]

Right, after several coffees administered intravenously I'm pleased to be able to announce fredo is wrong. You can write off Man United before it's mathematically impossible for them to win.

If they're, say, 20 points behind with 7 games left then they won't win it. I'd happily stake fredo's 'life' on it.

[Matt]

Right, after several coffees administered intravenously I'm pleased to be able to announce fredo is wrong. You can write off Man United before it's mathematically impossible for them to win.

If they're, say, 20 points behind with 7 games left then they won't win it. I'd happily stake fredo's 'life' on it.

:haha:

Welcome back!

[Darth Marty]

Even if we were 30 points ahead i wouldnt rule out the scum or the possibility that we would then go on to lose all of our remaining games!! Looking at the fixtures I honestly think that by Feb 1st when we play the chavs at ours we will be 6 points clear from anyone else. Thats gotta put us in the mix.

[Joe King]

The reason there are doubts about Arsenal's challenge is that they haven't won anything for years and they've already lost to Hull, Stoke and someone else (Bolton?). So the doubt is that if they're capable of losing those games then how many others might they lose - answer: pretty much any game.


Fulham :handshake:

As experience and just general common sense shows, you can never write them off. All you need is a certain Steve Bennett and their season will drastically change.

[Ferrrrnando]

i personally think its a two horse race but i wouldnt rule them out til march


The bookies would disagree

[Craig_H]

The bookies would disagree

Funny that, cos i'm sure he said 'I PERSONALLY THINK'.

What do the bookies have to do with anything?

Take your pathetic manc WUMery elsewhere.

[Elvoz]

The bookies would disagree

good lad

bookies are never wrong

hull are down arent they :confused:

[Red Chilli]

They have to play the other "big 4" teams at home yet.

They can still close the gap.

the reason a team like SCUM is tough to rule out is that they have the confidence and belief that they can win every game. Being joint European and Premier league champions gives them that belief. We shouldn't worry about them though, keep picking up 3 points and the titel will look after itself :handshake:

[Craig_H]

They have to play the other "big 4" teams at home yet.

They can still close the gap.

the reason a team like SCUM is tough to rule out is that they have the confidence and belief that they can win every game. Being joint European and Premier league champions gives them that belief. We shouldn't worry about them though, keep picking up 3 points and the titel will look after itself :handshake:

I hear what you're saying but my point was, if the gap becomes something like 12 points, can they really expect Chelsea or us to lose 4 games in the 2nd half of the season?

They could beat us, Chelsea and Arsenal at OT but we'd still need to lose another 3 games elsewhere.

[The_weatherman]

The key words are "away from home".

:shake: I really have to start reading the whole posts before I answer.

But all we can do is look at the table today, and the points accrued now. That says that ManU have played 11 games, 5 at home and 6 away. Their away record is 2 -2 -2 and home record is 4-1-0. If they keep that away record up until christmas they won't be in such a good position, I know they lost to us and Arsenal but they have two draws as well.

In november ManU. have to play Aston Villa and Man City away. And Tottenham away in december before they go off to Japan or wherever that competion is this year.

Though it shouldnt matter when they play the away games, in the end we all play the same amount of games home and away, we should focus on our games.

For the record:
Chelsea have a perfect away record but a mediocre home record 3-2-1.
We have 5-1-0 at home and 4-1-1 away.

[JohnnyLambert]

Never Never Never discount them horrible cunts from the Tiltle Race!!

[Woobus]

Rafa must have been reading this thread

Rafa plays down gap 11/11/08

RAFAEL Benitez has warned Liverpool fans about gloating too soon over the Anfield side’s eight-point lead over champions Manchester United.

For many Anfield fans, such an advantage over their greatest rivals with the season almost a third over, is cause for celebration.

But boss Benitez said: “I don’t think I will be celebrating until the gap is 20 points.”

“We were aware before we played West Brom on Saturday that Manchester United had lost, but it was not something that we allowed to affect how we played.

“If you spend the whole time with a calculator considering what others are doing, it will drive you crazy.

“You must concentrate on what you are doing. United may be trailing us, but we are not looking at what they are doing, only ourselves.”

Benitez, who welcomed back striker Fernando Torres against the Baggies after a hamstring injury, continued: “Manchester United still have a game in hand and the ability to make up points in just two other games is not that difficult for them.

“We have confidence and are playing well, so we know we can be up there at the top. We know it is a long race and must keep going.”

[pondus]

Rafa must have been reading this thread

Rafa plays down gap 11/11/08

RAFAEL Benitez has warned Liverpool fans about gloating too soon over the Anfield side’s eight-point lead over champions Manchester United.

For many Anfield fans, such an advantage over their greatest rivals with the season almost a third over, is cause for celebration.

But boss Benitez said: “I don’t think I will be celebrating until the gap is 20 points.”

“We were aware before we played West Brom on Saturday that Manchester United had lost, but it was not something that we allowed to affect how we played.

“If you spend the whole time with a calculator considering what others are doing, it will drive you crazy.

“You must concentrate on what you are doing. United may be trailing us, but we are not looking at what they are doing, only ourselves.”

Benitez, who welcomed back striker Fernando Torres against the Baggies after a hamstring injury, continued: “Manchester United still have a game in hand and the ability to make up points in just two other games is not that difficult for them.

“We have confidence and are playing well, so we know we can be up there at the top. We know it is a long race and must keep going.”

Didn't you know, he is constantly on here checking to see how much he can rotate, thank God he takes the advice from some on here and learns from them.

[Marky]

Never Never Never discount them horrible cunts from the Tiltle Race!!

:handshake:

[Parm]

hmm, thing is, we have always made a strong run in the second half of the season, only to be undone by:

1. a shit first half of the season
2. Us choking it when we play Utd/Chavs etc in the second half of season
3. lack of belief/experience.

I dont think utd have had a shit first half but they have stumbled and we have by and large been quite consitent so far.
utd have choked it so far in the big games, lets hope they can do so again.
They have belief and experience.

So by my reckoning no one can rule them out as also rans. They have the ability and experience to put together a strong run and that will put pressure on us. I think the key element will be whether we can handle the pressure.

[slimbimjim]

Have ManUre had any disruptive injuries so far this season (not including Hargreaves)?

[Parm]

Have ManUre had any disruptive injuries so far this season (not including Hargreaves)?

Ronaldo was out for some time, Van der Saar has missed a few games and didnt Rooney have a knock earlier this season?

[slimbimjim]

Ronaldo was out for some time, Van der Saar has missed a few games and didnt Rooney have a knock earlier this season?

So really they have weathered a storm too then? That is why we can't discount them.

[Dessy]

Just for reference purposes, Man Utd's next 8 league games:

Stoke (h)
Villa (a)
City (a)
Sunderland (h)
Spurs (a)
Stoke (a)
Middlesbrough (h)
Chelsea (h)

That takes them upto mid January and there's a couple of potential banana skins in that lot. Villa, City and Spurs are 3 tricky away games.

You'd expect Man U to be taking near enough maximum points every time there up to the Chelsea game. However, this season it has to be said they don't look as invincible as they have in previous seasons. Even so I can't see them dropping too many more points against teams outside the top 4 which makes it imperative that we continue to focus on our own games and do likewise.

[Woobus]

You'd expect Man U to be taking near enough maximum points every time there up to the Chelsea game. However, this season it has to be said they don't look as invincible as they have in previous seasons. Even so I can't see them dropping too many more points against teams outside the top 4 which makes it imperative that we continue to focus on our own games and do likewise.

Villa, City and Spurs away will be tricky matches. If they come away with 9 points from those 3 games I would be surprised.

[cadmium]

We'll have a clearer idea of how the scum are set up to challenge for the title when they return from the world club championships, hopefully with several injuries

[Dessy]

Villa, City and Spurs away will be tricky matches. If they come away with 9 points from those 3 games I would be surprised.

Tricky by whose standards? Our own from past experience maybe. Utd don't usually struggle (City aside maybe it beina a Derby and all that) in these games.

Yes I know Spurs are rejuvenated under Harry....but, ready to maybe be brought back down to earth soon? And Villa? Honestly, improved yes but not all they're cracked up to be and not quite 4th place material just yet. City might prove tricky it being a Derby and all but you'd still have to fancy the Scum to come out on top?

I think the bottom line is that Utd are more than 'capable' of taking the points here and will be favourites to do so in each and every game.

[Woobus]

Tricky by whose standards? Our own from past experience maybe. Utd don't usually struggle (City aside maybe it beina a Derby and all that) in these games.


Tricky by most sides standards. Villa are a good side this year and will give United a very good game at home, Spurs are playing out of there skin will really depend on what side turns up on the day with the Derby you never know what is going to happen.
United dont look the same side as previous years, there away form has been terrible this season and dont seem to travel well this season.

[Neil Young]

Tricky by most sides standards. Villa are a good side this year and will give United a very good game at home, Spurs are playing out of there skin will really depend on what side turns up on the day with the Derby you never know what is going to happen.
United dont look the same side as previous years, there away form has been terrible this season and dont seem to travel well this season.
You could be right but it could equally be wishful thinking. If you exclude the three away games against us, Chelsea and Arsenal (as I think you have to for the purposes of this exercise), then Man United have got 7 points out of 9 in away matches in the League.

[slimbimjim]

I think the best way to find out is to wait until the end of the season. Although you might be right about some predictions, others are out of left field.

[Woobus]

You could be right but it could equally be wishful thinking. If you exclude the three away games against us, Chelsea and Arsenal (as I think you have to for the purposes of this exercise), then Man United have got 7 points out of 9 in away matches in the League.

Draws with Celtic, Everton and Chelsea and defeats to us and Arsenal. While not the easiest of matches I see Celtic and Everton as easier matches than the Villa, Spurs and Man City for United.
I wont deny it might be wishful thinking as you never can be sure with those bastards, just dont think they will be as easy to overcome for United as some make out.

[Dessy]

Draws with Celtic, Everton and Chelsea and defeats to us and Arsenal. While not the easiest of matches I see Celtic and Everton as easier matches than the Villa, Spurs and Man City for United.
I wont deny it might be wishful thinking as you never can be sure with those bastards, just dont think they will be as easy to overcome for United as some make out.

Not saying it'll be easy just saying realistically you still have to fancy Utd to beat these teams.

Anyhoos, lets stop looking over our shoulders at whose there and concentrate on whose up next, 3 points and move on or nearer to no. 19 than they are to no. 18.

[Woobus]

Not saying it'll be easy just saying realistically you still have to fancy Utd to beat these teams.

Anyhoos, lets stop looking over our shoulders at whose there and concentrate on whose up next, 3 points and move on or nearer to no. 19 than they are to no. 18.

Not really expect them to get 7 points from those 3 games, think they are likely to draw at least one of them.
Agree with the second point as long as we get more points than Chelsea or United from now till the end of the season and it wont matter.