Beginning of the end - long post!

[Bob]

I'm going to explore the impending dawn of large scale machines with theoretical large scale destruction (end of time) - a case of life imitating art, more specifically science-fiction.

Expected in November 2007 is the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), which will be the world's largest particle accelerator and collider located at CERN (Geneva). Well i say located at CERN, the collider is contained in a 27km circumference tunnel - all underground (+50 meters) so its actually mostly in France. Try and comprehend the size of this machine, impossible to capture the enormity in one snap, but this series from the BBC is the best i could find... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/sci_nat_the_large_hadron_collider/html/2.stm

More worryingly USA has entered into this large scale area (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/4e52af1f64fec010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html)
making the possibility of a particle physics race for new discoveries a distinct possibility. However they are stating in that article, that this machine will build upon the findings of the LHC. They have reassuringly released $500million to simply research the technology!! So at least they're not going into it hack-handily.

So what do they machines hope so achieve - well many unsolved problems (that i'm struggling to even fathom the theory of) in physics such as :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson (The theoretical existence of the Higgs boson particle that, if exists, gives matter its mass, thus explaining its origins i.e. the biblical Genesis?).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryogenesis (heavy reading).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis (hardly light reading either).
To bastardise it, they are into banging particles into each other really, really quickly and examining the results!

Plenty of reading above that explore the science of these machines, but this is supposed to be a sensationalist post i.e. the end of the world, sci-fi and all that jazz! So i conclude quickly with the dangers these machines bring to the world. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Safety_concerns)
Oddly enough on the web you can find more evidence for the LHC than against the potential destruction it can cause {CERN did create the WWW after all conspiracy theory in here}.

Creation of a stable black hole
Terry Pratchett fans sit up.....!
Creating a microscopic black hole isn't easy, it needs a reasonable amount of neutronium, but may possible by jamming large numbers of atomic nuclei together until they stick, aha... that's where the LHC comes into it! CERN say even if they are produced, they are expected to be harmless due to the Hawking radiation process(this is open to argument). Basically if the theory of the Black hole is correct then all you would have to do is simply place the black hole on the surface of the Earth and wait....

Black holes are of such high density that they pass through ordinary matter like a stone through the air. The black hole will plummet through the ground, eating its way to the center of the Earth and all the way through to the other side: then, it'll oscillate back, over and over like a matter-absorbing pendulum. Eventually it will come to rest at the core, having absorbed enough matter to slow it down. Then you just need to wait, while it sits and consumes matter until the whole Earth is gone.

Creating Antimatter using the LHC
Antimatter is the most explosive substance possible - can be manufactured in small quantities using any large particle accelerator! You need a lot of antimatter, a lot more alluded to in angels and demons for instance.

If it does prove possible to manufacture antimatter in the sufficiently large quantities you require - which is not necessarily the case - then smaller antimatter bombs will be around long before then.

A Stable Strangelet created using the LHC
Once a solution to keeping a Strangelet stable enough, it could theoretically absorb earth's mass into a mass of strange quarks, resulting in a huge glob of strange matter.

Process... (from wiki) One strangelet hits a nucleus, catalyzing its immediate conversion to strange matter. This liberates energy, and sends pieces (more strangelets) flying in all directions. These merge with other nuclei and convert them, leading to a chain reaction, at the end of which all the nuclei of all the atoms have been converted, and earth has been reduced to a hot cloud of strangelets.

Now don't panic this is just cobbled together information from the www and science-fiction books. The key point though for me is epitomised by John Nelson at Birmingham University. He stated of RHIC that "it is astonishingly unlikely that there is any risk - but I could not prove it."

We are entering into the unknown, of that there is NO doubt.

Discuss??? :eyebrow:

Just finished a terrible book Angels and Demons - so bad i can't even bring myself to comment on it - suffice to say it features the LHC in CERN and the potential destruction of the Vatican city, thus arousing my curiosity in this obscure field. It explores the use of unstable antimatter stolen from CERN - created in the LHC - as a weapon.

Nice article for further reading if you've got this far - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4524132.stm

[Red_hot]

:( I wont even begin to try to understand that.

Head explodes

[paulcooper4]

I'm going to explore the impending dawn of large scale machines with theoretical large scale destruction (end of time) - a case of life imitating art, more specifically science-fiction.

Expected in November 2007 is the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), which will be the world's largest particle accelerator and collider located at CERN (Geneva). Well i say located at CERN, the collider is contained in a 27km circumference tunnel - all underground (+50 meters) so its actually mostly in France. Try and comprehend the size of this machine, impossible to capture the enormity in one snap, but this series from the BBC is the best i could find... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/sci_nat_the_large_hadron_collider/html/2.stm

More worryingly USA has entered into this large scale area (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/4e52af1f64fec010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html)
making the possibility of a particle physics race for new discoveries a distinct possibility. However they are stating in that article, that this machine will build upon the findings of the LHC. They have reassuringly released $500million to simply research the technology!! So at least they're not going into it hack-handily.

So what do they machines hope so achieve - well many unsolved problems (that i'm struggling to even fathom the theory of) in physics such as :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson (The theoretical existence of the Higgs boson particle that, if exists, gives matter its mass, thus explaining its origins i.e. the biblical Genesis?).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryogenesis (heavy reading).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis (hardly light reading either).
To bastardise it, they are into banging particles into each other really, really quickly and examining the results!

Plenty of reading above that explore the science of these machines, but this is supposed to be a sensationalist post i.e. the end of the world, sci-fi and all that jazz! So i conclude quickly with the dangers these machines bring to the world. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Safety_concerns)
Oddly enough on the web you can find more evidence for the LHC than against the potential destruction it can cause {CERN did create the WWW after all conspiracy theory in here}.

Creation of a stable black hole
Terry Pratchett fans sit up.....!
Creating a microscopic black hole isn't easy, it needs a reasonable amount of neutronium, but may possible by jamming large numbers of atomic nuclei together until they stick, aha... that's where the LHC comes into it! CERN say even if they are produced, they are expected to be harmless due to the Hawking radiation process(this is open to argument). Basically if the theory of the Black hole is correct then all you would have to do is simply place the black hole on the surface of the Earth and wait....

Black holes are of such high density that they pass through ordinary matter like a stone through the air. The black hole will plummet through the ground, eating its way to the center of the Earth and all the way through to the other side: then, it'll oscillate back, over and over like a matter-absorbing pendulum. Eventually it will come to rest at the core, having absorbed enough matter to slow it down. Then you just need to wait, while it sits and consumes matter until the whole Earth is gone.

Creating Antimatter using the LHC
Antimatter is the most explosive substance possible - can be manufactured in small quantities using any large particle accelerator! You need a lot of antimatter, a lot more alluded to in angels and demons for instance.

If it does prove possible to manufacture antimatter in the sufficiently large quantities you require - which is not necessarily the case - then smaller antimatter bombs will be around long before then.

A Stable Strangelet created using the LHC
Once a solution to keeping a Strangelet stable enough, it could theoretically absorb earth's mass into a mass of strange quarks, resulting in a huge glob of strange matter.

Process... (from wiki) One strangelet hits a nucleus, catalyzing its immediate conversion to strange matter. This liberates energy, and sends pieces (more strangelets) flying in all directions. These merge with other nuclei and convert them, leading to a chain reaction, at the end of which all the nuclei of all the atoms have been converted, and earth has been reduced to a hot cloud of strangelets.

Now don't panic this is just cobbled together information from the www and science-fiction books. The key point though for me is epitomised by John Nelson at Birmingham University. He stated of RHIC that "it is astonishingly unlikely that there is any risk - but I could not prove it."

We are entering into the unknown, of that there is NO doubt.

Discuss??? :eyebrow:

Just finished a terrible book Angels and Demons - so bad i can't even bring myself to comment on it - suffice to say it features the LHC in CERN and the potential destruction of the Vatican city, thus arousing my curiosity in this obscure field. It explores the use of unstable antimatter stolen from CERN - created in the LHC - as a weapon.

Nice article for further reading if you've got this far - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4524132.stm
good post mate, I agree 100% with evrything you just said:handshake:

[Chrono]

I read about this a while ago. It seems quite insane that we are in a position that we are delving in to technology this powerful when we still can't cure a common cold.

I really don't think it should be messed with as the consequences of doing this on a small scale are still theoretical and nobody knows how this things start in the first place. I'm all for stem cell research, etc. but this one seems like a very very bad idea.

Fuck it, let's give it a shot. Everyone choose a side for when we meet our maker. Not like we are taking care of the world anyway. :rock:

[Mumsafan]

Bob is bored.

[Paul.S]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/sci_nat_the_large_hadron_collider/img/5.jpg

That picture hurts my eyes.

Tis a lot of money to spend for an event which theoretically will be over in milliseconds! :p

[Bob]

Bob is bored.
Holiday :rock:

To be fair it took me a good hour to put that together, and i was hoping for more than a three word sentence retort :o

[spud_gun]

Bob is bored.

boring..Surely?

[johnp]

I read about this a while ago. It seems quite insane that we are in a position that we are delving in to technology this powerful when we still can't cure a common cold.

I really don't think it should be messed with as the consequences of doing this on a small scale are still theoretical and nobody knows how this things start in the first place. I'm all for stem cell research, etc. but this one seems like a very very bad idea.

Fuck it, let's give it a shot. Everyone choose a side for when we meet our maker. Not like we are taking care of the world anyway. :rock:

Placing a large amount of anti-matter up the nostril will soon clear up your cold.
You need to start thinking laterally :handshake:

[Mumsafan]

Holiday :rock:

To be fair it took me a good hour to put that together, and i was hoping for more than a three word sentence retort :o


I bet you're wearing a stripey shirt

[Mumsafan]

boring..Surely?


That as well :D



Only kidding Robert!

[Red_hot]

Hehehehe

[Chrono]

Placing a large amount of anti-matter up the nostril will soon clear up your cold.
You need to start thinking laterally :handshake:

As long as you stay v e r y still or dip your nostril over the top and then bring it back up once cleared.

How about an anti-matter enema :handshake:

[anfieldanfield]

good post mate, I agree 100% with evrything you just said:handshake:

Translation;

'I didn't understand a fucking word of it, but please think I'm intelligent'

[Reece]

Although I didn't understand a lot of it, I still found it pretty interesting.

Thanks Bob.

[paulcooper4]

Translation;

'I didn't understand a fucking word of it, but please think I'm intelligent'
correct:handshake:

[Bob]

I read about this a while ago. It seems quite insane that we are in a position that we are delving in to technology this powerful when we still can't cure a common cold.

I really don't think it should be messed with as the consequences of doing this on a small scale are still theoretical and nobody knows how this things start in the first place. I'm all for stem cell research, etc. but this one seems like a very very bad idea.

Fuck it, let's give it a shot. Everyone choose a side for when we meet our maker. Not like we are taking care of the world anyway. :rock:
Good point, we're on a sinking ship - let's go out on a blaze of glory :rolleyes: ;)

It's amazing how much money goes into this, and really what will it solve, a few head-scratchers?! To be fair i'm being slightly facetious there - a lot of good could come out of this research, but at what cost(literally and theoretically)!! I mean $1/2 billion dollars for a glorified feasibility study :shake:

I'm all for stem-cell research.

I've read "theoretical" a thousand times today :(

[Mumsafan]

Lots of long words in this thread isn't there?

[Bob]

I bet you're wearing a stripey shirt

Actually no!

:rant: :rant: :rant:

Actually yes :grr:

[Paul.S]

$1/2 billion dollars for this, or the esitmated $87 billion Bush has spent on his "Terror war" ?

[bazza76]

So they think they could possibly create a black hole? and according to wiki it could even destroy the universe :haha:
Makes you think about the fact that there is a supermassive blackhole in the centre of our own galaxy. Yet the universe is still there.
So If a black hole was to bounce through the earth back and fourth till it solwed down, what happenes to the matter it has swallowed?

[paulcooper4]

So they think they could possibly create a black hole? and according to wiki it could even destroy the universe :haha:
Makes you think about the fact that there is a supermassive blackhole in the centre of our own galaxy. Yet the universe is still there.
So If a black hole was to bounce through the earth back and fourth till it solwed down, what happenes to the matter it has swallowed?
It becomes a 6 foot 4 scottish skinny twat called druncan

[bazza76]

It becomes a 6 foot 4 scottish skinny twat called druncan
:haha: Drunken Ferguson?

[Chrono]

Good point, we're on a sinking ship - let's go out on a blaze of glory :rolleyes: ;)

It's amazing how much money goes into this, and really what will it solve, a few head-scratchers?! To be fair i'm being slightly facetious there - a lot of good could come out of this research, but at what cost(literally and theoretically)!! I mean $1/2 billion dollars for a glorified feasibility study :shake:

I'm all for stem-cell research.

I've read "theoretical" a thousand times today :(

Well, it could actually change the entire planet if black holes or anti-matter were ever developed but it really is risky business.

It always amazed me that when a couple of astronaughts die the PR is such that they suspend a lot of space development for fear of a few more getting wiped out on take off but then they don't mind messing around with this. :confused:

[G_Man]

So If a black hole was to bounce through the earth back and fourth till it solwed down, what happenes to the matter it has swallowed?

It becomes compressed :handshake:

[Chrono]

So they think they could possibly create a black hole? and according to wiki it could even destroy the universe :haha:
Makes you think about the fact that there is a supermassive blackhole in the centre of our own galaxy. Yet the universe is still there.
So If a black hole was to bounce through the earth back and fourth till it solwed down, what happenes to the matter it has swallowed?

Black holes are slowly swallowing the galaxy and assuming that matter can never stop existing, this must be getting transferred somewhere. If a black hole moved through earth we would no longer be in this galaxy and possibly existence.

[brikkis]

what happenes to the matter it has swallowed?

Apparently the black hole does a big fart every now and again to release the pressure. :handshake:

[Mightycheese]

I used to work on VULCAN at the Rutherford labs in Oxfordshire. Still the worlds biggest laser (the Yanks are just about to finish a stupidly big one). The most worrying this about all of this is the people who run it. Students.
I was a student in control of the button that fires the worlds biggest laser. Who are they going to employ to run the CERN stuff.......students. Cheap labour. That concerns me.

[Mightycheese]

Black holes are slowly swallowing the galaxy and assuming that matter can never stop existing, this must be getting transferred somewhere. If a black hole moved through earth we would no longer be in this galaxy and possibly existence.

The matter isn't transferred anywhere. A "Classic" Blackhole is a collapsed Star. It's just the mass of the star but compressed. Anything that comes near it (even light) will be pulled in by the huge gravitational pull (or curvature of Space-Time if you want to be a fancy dan).

[bazza76]

I used to work on VULCAN at the Rutherford labs in Oxfordshire. Still the worlds biggest laser (the Yanks are just about to finish a stupidly big one). The most worrying this about all of this is the people who run it. Students.
I was a student in control of the button that fires the worlds biggest laser. Who are they going to employ to run the CERN stuff.......students. Cheap labour. That concerns me.
If they can afford 1.something billion to make it, i doubt they would emply cheap labour to run it.

[Mightycheese]

If they can afford 1.something billion to make it, i doubt they would emply cheap labour to run it.

Those places normally get a few head staff, but the monkeys pressing the buttons and aligning it every day are placement students. A lad from our course worked on the old particle accelerator at CERN, there were 4 of us running VULCAN. CERN are really cheap as well. You don't get a wage, you get an allowance. It's supposed to be a privilege to work there.

[Paul.S]

Cool.... I'd probably get thrown out for using the laser to cook dinner :D

[rushscored4]

a case of life imitating art, more specifically science-fiction.

Expected in November 2007 is the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), which will be the world's largest particle accelerator and collider located at CERN (Geneva). Well i say located at CERN, the collider is contained in a 27km circumference tunnel - all underground (+50 meters) so its actually mostly in France. Try and comprehend the size of this machine, impossible to capture the enormity in one snap, but this series from the BBC is the best i could find... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/sci_nat_the_large_hadron_collider/html/2.stm

Interesting... (honest!)

Dan Brown (the author of "the Da Vinci Code") also wrote a book called "Angels & Demons" which covers this very subject and is initially set in that tunnel at CERN in Geneva. I'm currently about 1/3 through the book so I don't know what else happens but the theme is that a religious (anti-religious?) sect called 'Illuminati' use a canister of anti-matter to create a bomb under the Vatican at the time of a papal conclave where all the Roman Catholic cardinals are meeting to vote in a new Pope...

[Bob]

Interesting... (honest!)

Dan Brown (the author of "the Da Vinci Code") also wrote a book called "Angels & Demons" which covers this very subject and is initially set in that tunnel at CERN in Geneva. I'm currently about 1/3 through the book so I don't know what else happens but the theme is that a religious (anti-religious?) sect called 'Illuminati' use a canister of anti-matter to create a bomb under the Vatican at the time of a papal conclave where all the Roman Catholic cardinals are meeting to vote in a new Pope...
Read the rest of the post :handshake:

[Bob]

Those places normally get a few head staff, but the monkeys pressing the buttons and aligning it every day are placement students. A lad from our course worked on the old particle accelerator at CERN, there were 4 of us running VULCAN. CERN are really cheap as well. You don't get a wage, you get an allowance. It's supposed to be a privilege to work there.
Indeed it is!

You see this is the kind of person i was hoping to attract in this thread. :lackofupyourssmiliepaul:

They are widely attributed to have invented the WWW, but their website is shit http://public.web.cern.ch/Public/Welcome.html

This cheapness is very worrying, Chernobyl anyone?

[rushscored4]

Read the rest of the post :handshake:

Oh yeah. Sorry Bob, I lost the will to live after the first paragraph and couldn't be arsed to read that far down! :D

I did read the rest of the replies though and couldn't see a reference to Angels & Demons so assumed it was a good idea to mention it... :o

Anyway, the reason I've only read 1/3 of the book is that it is pretty terrible and certainly not one that "you can't put down". :shake:

[bazza76]

Cool.... I'd probably get thrown out for using the laser to cook dinner :D
:rock:
Could also be used for buring hash :handshake:

[Bob]

Just adding to that last post - i happen to work at a research institute myself, and i see first-hand the level of cheapness in science. I mean if you want a big fuck off glasshouse over 2.5 mil then no problem... Recruiting someone to research a plant's interactions - let's grab a graduate luring them with the honour and experience they'll gain, while paying them min wage on a short term contract :rolleyes:

[Bob]

Oh yeah. Sorry Bob, I lost the will to live after the first paragraph and couldn't be arsed to read that far down! :D

:handshake:


Anyway, the reason I've only read 1/3 of the book is that it is pretty terrible and certainly not one that "you can't put down". :shake:


As i said i thought it was terrible. Especially the opening third. It does get better later on.

What struck me about it from the start - no matter what the crisis (impending doom to the world/rape/murder) Langdon can't help but admire the obscure symbology of some of the passing relics etc. That attention to detail never wavers throughout the book, and ruins the whole pace of the thing - terrible read i'm afraid - anyway hope you enjoy it ;)

[Chrono]

That attention to detail never wavers throughout the book, and ruins the whole pace of the thing - terrible read i'm afraid - anyway hope you enjoy it ;)

Spoil it! Spoil it! Spoil it! :rock:

[Mightycheese]

Just adding to that last post - i happen to work at a research institute myself, and i see first-hand the level of cheapness in science. I mean if you want a big fuck off glasshouse over 2.5 mil then no problem... Recruiting someone to research a plant's interactions - let's grab a graduate luring them with the honour and experience they'll gain, while paying them min wage on a short term contract :rolleyes:

Yup,
I was always buying things that accounted for my annual salary. Saying that though, it's one of the easiest jobs I've ever had. 2 hour shifts on the laser and you can only fire it every 20 minutes because the glass needs to cool down. Championship Manager anyone?

I think the US Laser has 147 beams and one of their capacitor banks is the same size as the entire VULCAN laser. Bloody Yanks.

Didn't they start building a particle accelerator? It wasn't a syncratron, but a linear one. They dug the hole, put down the foundations and then got the budget pulled. Think it has to be the most expensive hole in the ground. $2 Billion for nowt.

[Bob]

Yup,
I was always buying things that accounted for my annual salary. Saying that though, it's one of the easiest jobs I've ever had. 2 hour shifts on the laser and you can only fire it every 20 minutes because the glass needs to cool down. Championship Manager anyone?

I think the US Laser has 147 beams and one of their capacitor banks is the same size as the entire VULCAN laser. Bloody Yanks.

Didn't they start building a particle accelerator? It wasn't a syncratron, but a linear one. They dug the hole, put down the foundations and then got the budget pulled. Think it has to be the most expensive hole in the ground. $2 Billion for nowt.
Not sure of the details, but yes they did start building a particle accelerator and it did get pulled. CERN unsurprisingly struggled to finance theirs as well.

Firing big fuck off lasers has to be a pretty cool job. Being able to hit that big red button, "DO NOT TOUCH" has been a dream job of mine from an early age.

The USA are renowned for letting other folk invent things before taking them to another level, and claiming it for themselves. The WWW a case in point!

[Paul.S]

I liked Angels & Demons :o

[redlancer]

haven't read it all

but we have our very own particle speeder upper in the north west

the people who work there can be classed as social outcasts and are a breed apart.
Would i trust them to put the human race before science - no.

Some great stories of them.

The equivalent in the USA, think in California is built on a national park or something and they go and shoot Buffalo and Deer in their lunch break
What a job

[Mightycheese]

Firing big fuck off lasers has to be a pretty cool job. Being able to hit that big red button, "DO NOT TOUCH" has been a dream job of mine from an early age.


Aye, it was pretty fun.
I managed to shoot through 18 optics because of a bit of a miscalculation once. That was fun. Made a big bang.
Also, somebody in a target area left a can of coke in the beamline then blamed us for the loss of energy. We went in there to find the can slightly crumpled and all the paint stripped from it, and that was at a point where it wasn't focussed.

[Chrono]

Aye, it was pretty fun.
I managed to shoot through 18 optics because of a bit of a miscalculation once. That was fun. Made a big bang.
Also, somebody in a target area left a can of coke in the beamline then blamed us for the loss of energy. We went in there to find the can slightly crumpled and all the paint stripped from it, and that was at a point where it wasn't focussed.

Fucking hell :haha: :haha: :haha:

Just confirms your concerns about students working on these sortof projects. Did anyone get pissed on Cider and put a traffic cone in the line of the beam? :haha:

[Abro100]

Ok i wanna argue or debate, but what is the 'god particle' and why do they want to make a black hole? Couldnt they just spend this on clearing debt of 3rd world countires or something?

[Rafanomenon]

A very interesting read and at the same time very worrying!

There is however, one sentance I don't get:

"Basically if the theory of the Black hole is correct then all you would have to do is simply place the black hole on the surface of the Earth and wait...."

Now I might have got this wrong but from the rest of the article I understand that a black hole basically sucks everything into it and compresses it. If that is the case how do you just simply place it onto something - surely whatever touches it will be sucked into and therefore disappear or do they just test it by getting one of the graduates to try it??!!

And if that is the case how, once/if they have managed to create one, do they intend on stabalising it so it doesn't destroy everything around it?:confused:

Can anyone explain......??

[Rich]

I'm guessing using some very large magnets..... but I might be wrong.... ;)

[Abro100]

Youve just made me shit myself, i bet they employ some psyco who presses the wrong thing, this black whole comes out and boom where all sucked into a hole! The question is, if it sucks everything in, does it not expand and everything decompresses?

[Rich]

The magnetic field which envelopes the sun, which is related to the gavity of the object, has a happy knack of keeping much of the matter in check.

I'd expect an attempt to contain a black hole, would try and use a it's or a magnetic field to stop it from consuming all matter on Earth as we know it! :D

[paulcooper4]

The magnetic field which envelopes the sun, which is related to the gavity of the object, has a happy knack of keeping much of the matter in check.

I'd expect an attempt to contain a black hole, would try and use a it's or a magnetic field to stop it from consuming all matter on Earth as we know it! :D
prick, I pm you and you re-type it word for word:whatever:

[Abro100]

Could we make a black hole then say dump it on shitty planets like mercury?

[Rich]

Could we make a black hole then say dump it on shitty planets like mercury?
Sadly, it wouldn't just stop at Mercury - or Manchester, if we set one off in the centre circle of at Old Trafford!

[Abro100]

Isnt there black holes already out there?

[Flake]

Black holes would be a lot harder to control than mercury...:rolleyes:

[Rich]

Isnt there black holes already out there?

Yep, millions of the blighters!

[Abro100]

why arnt we in them?

[Rich]

Cos, the universe is 'fairly' big...

[Abro100]

'fairly' haha i laughed at that, because i know its scarcastic, i know but surely they have been there for millions of years

[Rich]

they have! But the Universe is pretty incomprehensibly big!!

[Bob]

Ok i wanna argue or debate, but what is the 'god particle' and why do they want to make a black hole? Couldnt they just spend this on clearing debt of 3rd world countires or something?

Firstly the God particle (Higgs boson) is a...

Mysterious sub-atomic fragment that permeates the entire universe and explains how everything is the way it is.

Simple :eyebrow: - read this http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1287710,00.html Oh, and i should add its all hypothetical :rolleyes:

You have a point, what price do we put on science? However, a lot of this will be funded by private money, and as PaulS said there are other things such as the war of terror at $70 billion dollars plus, that are surely more deserving of contempt.

[Bob]

A very interesting read and at the same time very worrying!

There is however, one sentance I don't get:

"Basically if the theory of the Black hole is correct then all you would have to do is simply place the black hole on the surface of the Earth and wait...."

Now I might have got this wrong but from the rest of the article I understand that a black hole basically sucks everything into it and compresses it. If that is the case how do you just simply place it onto something - surely whatever touches it will be sucked into and therefore disappear or do they just test it by getting one of the graduates to try it??!!

And if that is the case how, once/if they have managed to create one, do they intend on stabalising it so it doesn't destroy everything around it?:confused:

Can anyone explain......??

I'll put it as simply as i can - If Steven Hawkings was having us all on (as some people think) then we're all fucked!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation

This little blog, which i just found explains this aspect of my initial post quite well. Shame i didn't find it earlier :o

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/09/22/mini-black-holes-to-devour-the-world/

[Bob]

A very interesting read and at the same time very worrying!

There is however, one sentance I don't get:

"Basically if the theory of the Black hole is correct then all you would have to do is simply place the black hole on the surface of the Earth and wait...."

Now I might have got this wrong but from the rest of the article I understand that a black hole basically sucks everything into it and compresses it. If that is the case how do you just simply place it onto something - surely whatever touches it will be sucked into and therefore disappear or do they just test it by getting one of the graduates to try it??!!

And if that is the case how, once/if they have managed to create one, do they intend on stabalising it so it doesn't destroy everything around it?:confused:

Can anyone explain......??

Black holes are not easy to understand. Far from it, the idea of placing a black hole on earth is not something that it literally likely to happen.

Black holes are gravitational relics of dead stars. They are, quite literally, bottomless pits in space and time that are capable of swallowing any amount of material. Everything a black hole swallows gets compressed into an unimaginably tiny central region called a singularity. According to our current knowledge, this singularity is infinitely dense, and infinitely small.

[Bob]

Apparently the black hole does a big fart every now and again to release the pressure. :handshake:

What brikkis alluded to here was Hawkings radiation - his theory on how black holes, over time, radiate (fart) energy away, eventually disappearing in a final cataclysmic burst of radiation. Though handily for Hawkings the nearest black hole is light-years away :rolleyes:

This is where CERN and LCHs come to the rescue! :o

[fah-q]

Angels and demons is shit but still miles better than The Da Vinci Code.

Question though: If matter and anti matter clash they cancel each other out, what happens what pasta and anti-pasta meet?

[Guest]

Nanotechnology. For me, this is the next big thing. Imagine creating anything from nanoparticles .... A nanoparticle could take any form when in contact with anything. Molecular manufacturing can be disastrous in the long term, if this technology is dropped in wrong hands but at the same time could be fantastic for the advancement of science.

[fah-q]

Is that like an Ipod Nano?

[Guest]

Is that like an Ipod Nano?

:crackoff:

You've got your point though ... nano meaning small scale.

This is a very very interesting article from Bill Joy, one of Sun Microsystems co-founders and one of the most brilliant mind in the world of IT and one of his greatest achievement has been the implementation and design of TCP / IP.

This article depicts his fears about advancement in technology in general.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

[Bob]

Nanotechnology. For me, this is the next big thing. Imagine creating anything from nanoparticles .... A nanoparticle could take any form when in contact with anything. Molecular manufacturing can be disastrous in the long term, if this technology is dropped in wrong hands but at the same time could be fantastic for the advancement of science.
Balls, stem-cells all the way for me.

Can't be doing with all this jiggery pokery into stuff the greatest minds in the world can't understand never mind pleb like me. It just seems like a scientist's wet dream - a fucking sand pit to have a play in!!

And like you said, in the hands of nefarious people, or like Chernobyl II then we could all be royally fucked. This black hole pish is worrying - i know they're only intending on creating microscopic black holes, but what happens when someone leaves out a decimal place somewhere. :rant:

Live for the moment :rock:

[Guest]

Balls, stem-cells all the way for me.

Can't be doing with all this jiggery pokery into stuff the greatest minds in the world can't understand never mind pleb like me. It just seems like a scientists wet dream - a fucking sand pit to have a play in!!

And like you said, in the hands of nefarious people, or like the Chernobyl then we could all be royally fucked. This black hole pish is worrying - i know they're only intending on creating microscopic black holes, but what happens when someone leaves out a decimal place somewhere. :rant:

Live for the moment :rock:

Read this Bill Joy article i posted above mate. Fantastic from a truely great mind. :handshake:

[rnm]

both a great read, thanks - i love this shit

[G_Man]

Black holes are not easy to understand. Far from it, the idea of placing a black hole on earth is not something that it literally likely to happen.


Quote:
Black holes are gravitational relics of dead stars. They are, quite literally, bottomless pits in space and time that are capable of swallowing any amount of material. Everything a black hole swallows gets compressed into an unimaginably tiny central region called a singularity. According to our current knowledge, this singularity is infinitely dense, and infinitely small.


Surely "black holes" are just conceptual. You cannot have something "infinitely small" by definition, to be infinitely small it would have to not exist. :confused:

[Guest]

Surely "black holes" are just conceptual. You cannot have something "infinitely small" by definition, to be infinitely small it would have to not exist. :confused:

Wrong.

[G_Man]

Wrong.

Explain how something can be "infinitely small" using the standard definitions of 'infinitely' and 'small'

[animal magic]

Youve just made me shit myself, i bet they employ some psyco who presses the wrong thing, this black whole comes out and boom where all sucked into a hole! The question is, if it sucks everything in, does it not expand and everything decompresses?


No. A black hole has a "horizon," which means a region from which you can't escape. If you cross the horizon, you're doomed to eventually hit the singularity. But as long as you stay outside of the horizon, you can avoid getting sucked in. In fact, to someone well outside of the horizon, the gravitational field surrounding a black hole is no different from the field surrounding any other object of the same mass. In other words, a one-solar-mass black hole is no better than any other one-solar-mass object (such as, for example, the Sun) at "sucking in" distant objects.

[G_Man]

No. A black hole has a "horizon," which means a region from which you can't escape. If you cross the horizon, you're doomed to eventually hit the singularity. But as long as you stay outside of the horizon, you can avoid getting sucked in. In fact, to someone well outside of the horizon, the gravitational field surrounding a black hole is no different from the field surrounding any other object of the same mass. In other words, a one-solar-mass black hole is no better than any other one-solar-mass object (such as, for example, the Sun) at "sucking in" distant objects.

So is it infinitely small?

[Guest]

When defining something infinite, it means that we can't quantify it further. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist though.

[animal magic]

A team of astronomers have found a colossal black hole so ancient, they're not sure how it had enough time to grow to its current size, about 10 billion times the mass of the Sun.

Sitting at the heart of a distant galaxy, the black hole appears to be about 12.7 billion years old, which means it formed just one billion years after the universe began and is one of the oldest supermassive black holes ever known.

The black hole, researchers said, is big enough to hold 1,000 of our own Solar Systems and weighs about as much as all the stars in the Milky Way.

[G_Man]

When defining something infinite, it means that we can't quantify it further. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist though.

I've no problem with the definition of infinite, to a point, but I think the term 'infinitely small' is an oxymoron.

[Bob]

When defining something infinite, it means that we can't quantify it further. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist though.
Is a right answer - It is general relativity that predicts a singularity at the interior of a black hole i.e. a place where the curvature of spacetime becomes infinite and gravitational forces become infinitely strong.

However that's it to the best of our knowledge, CERN hope that future refinements of quantum gravity, or general relativity, will change what is thought about the nature of black hole interiors.

Remember, any amount of mass can make a black hole (matter and energy are equivalent E=MC2), as long as you squeeze it into a sufficiently small volume. This is what CERN hope to achieve with these massive particle accelerators i.e. physically crush matter to black hole densities - like a person into the size of an electron.

To put into context there are Stellar-Mass black holes with masses of a typical star (4–15 times the mass of our Sun) CERN hope to create black holes with the mass of just a few hundred protons. Black holes of this size will evaporate almost instantly, their existence detectable only by dying bursts of Hawking radiation (if in fact that's the case as Hawkings findings are just theoretical).

[Bob]

I've no problem with the definition of infinite, to a point, but I think the term 'infinitely small' is an oxymoron.
It's just an expression used by scientists to define something they can't quite grasp.

EDIT - Einstein couldn't believe in invisible Black holes either :handshake:

[G_Man]

Anyway,I'm still confused about that term, but getting back to these subatomic particles. What I find interesting is that (Gautama) Buddha predicted the existence of these particles 2500 years ago. :)

[fah-q]

What about a white hole?

CAT: So, what is it?
KRYTEN: I've never seen one before -- no one has -- but I'm guessing it's
a white hole.
RIMMER: A _white_ hole?
KRYTEN: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A black hole
sucks time and matter out of the universe: a white hole returns it.
LISTER: So, that thing's spewing time back into the universe? (He dons
his fur-lined hat.)
KRYTEN: Precisely. That's why we're experiencing these curious time
phenomena on board.
CAT: So, what is it?
KRYTEN: I've never seen one before -- no one has -- but I'm guessing it's
a white hole.
RIMMER: A _white_ hole?
KRYTEN: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A black hole
sucks time and matter out of the universe: a white hole returns it.
LISTER: (Minus the hat.) So, that thing's spewing time back into the
universe? (He dons his fur-lined hat, again.)
KRYTEN: Precisely. That's why we're experiencing these curious time
phenomena on board.
LISTER: What time phenomena?
KRYTEN: Like just then, when time repeated itself.
CAT: So, what is it?

They all stare at him.

CAT: Only joking.

[bazza76]

they have! But the Universe is pretty incomprehensibly big!!
There is no edge to the universe. IMO outside that you will find other universes, and the patern is repeated infinitely.

[rnm]

:haha: but what is it :haha:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=918lmJxJAAs

[Bob]

What about a white hole?

CAT: So, what is it?
KRYTEN: I've never seen one before -- no one has -- but I'm guessing it's
a white hole.
RIMMER: A _white_ hole?
KRYTEN: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A black hole
sucks time and matter out of the universe: a white hole returns it.
LISTER: So, that thing's spewing time back into the universe? (He dons
his fur-lined hat.)
KRYTEN: Precisely. That's why we're experiencing these curious time
phenomena on board.
CAT: So, what is it?
KRYTEN: I've never seen one before -- no one has -- but I'm guessing it's
a white hole.
RIMMER: A _white_ hole?
KRYTEN: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A black hole
sucks time and matter out of the universe: a white hole returns it.
LISTER: (Minus the hat.) So, that thing's spewing time back into the
universe? (He dons his fur-lined hat, again.)
KRYTEN: Precisely. That's why we're experiencing these curious time
phenomena on board.
LISTER: What time phenomena?
KRYTEN: Like just then, when time repeated itself.
CAT: So, what is it?

They all stare at him.

CAT: Only joking.

:haha: Whatever happened that movie they mooted a while back?!

Great little programme that!

[Mumsafan]

Charles was on our flight to Monaco a couple of seasons ago. He's short. but a good fella.

[Bob]

Charles was on our flight to Monaco a couple of seasons ago. He's short. but a good fella.
Is he a fan?! Or just a fellow yuppy?

[Abdul Alhazred]

The word is infinitesimal.

Move on.

[Bob]

The word is infinitesimal.

Move on.
Not according to the scientific fraternity :(

[Mumsafan]

Is he a fan?! Or just a fellow yuppy?


He's a red.

[Paul.S]

Well they were :D

Back on topic now please guys.... Thanks :)

http://harp.web.cern.ch/harp/Public/public_pictures/harp_exp_2001.jpg

What a wiring nightmare!

[Reece]

Have they not heard of wireless?

[Rich]

Well they were :D

Back on topic now please guys.... Thanks :)

http://harp.web.cern.ch/harp/Public/public_pictures/harp_exp_2001.jpg

What a wiring nightmare!

At least they are up to date with their fire safety!

Caco takes note of the tiny fire extinguisher!

[Neil Young]

I'm going to explore the impending dawn of large scale machines with theoretical large scale destruction (end of time) - a case of life imitating art, more specifically science-fiction.

Why is anyone worried about the end of the Universe? It's going to happen anyway.

[Rich]

Why is anyone worried about the end of the Universe? It's going to happen anyway.

How do you know?

[Neil Young]

How do you know?

fredo predicted it.

[Bob]

Why is anyone worried about the end of the Universe? It's going to happen anyway.
It was mentioned earlier...

Blaze of glory - not worried about the future generation Neil?!

Its all theoretical anyway ;)

[Neil Young]

It was mentioned earlier...

Blaze of glory - not worried about the future generation Neil?!

Its all theoretical anyway ;)

Yes, I am worried about the general balls-up my generation is making and the whirlwind we're sowing for the next generation. The chances of the world ending in the way you describe are, as you know, so remote though.

:handshake:

[Rich]

Yes, I am worried about the general balls-up my generation is making and the whirlwind we're sowing for the next generation. The chances of the world ending in the way you describe are, as you know, so remote though.

:handshake:

Exactly, there are plenty of ways of destroying the world, before we get good at creating a decent sized Black Hole.

All those E.T's out there, must be pissing themselves at the bollocks up we keep making!!! :crackoff:

[bazza76]

How do you know?
The known Universe will eventually rot away.
NBot to worry though, as there will be plenty other universes around.

[Mightycheese]

Going back to the waste of money issue, I think that these kinds of experiments can justify the cost because of the amount of stuff that comes hand in hand with research. As said before the WWW from CERN, but a lot of the groundbreaking research on microchips, aviation, medical devices, satellite communications was all done in these places. They tend to say "I need something to do this for my experiement, it doesn't exist, so I'll make it" then that becomes a product in itself.


The Black Hole stuff : Visible matter only account for 3-5% of the known Universe, so the rest has been termed Dark Matter. LHC will go a long way to finding out what the Dark Matter is and also the first few nanoseconds of the existence of the Universe (which should hopefully explain a lot since).

The stuff about a Black Hole having a singularity is all mathematical modelling as (obviously) nobody has gone in one. There's a good analogy that Sapce/Time is a snooker table with no slate underneath and each ball is a mass (planet). The bigger the mass, the bigger the dent in the table. If another ball comes near to it, it starts to fall into the dent (or curvature of space time). A really big mass (i.e. a Black Hole) would create a huge dent that everything would fall into, or (theroetically) rip the cloth, creating a worm hole.
Only a 2D basic analogy, but it helps get your head round the curvature of space time.

[Neil Young]

Going back to the waste of money issue, I think that these kinds of experiments can justify the cost because of the amount of stuff that comes hand in hand with research. As said before the WWW from CERN, but a lot of the groundbreaking research on microchips, aviation, medical devices, satellite communications was all done in these places. They tend to say "I need something to do this for my experiement, it doesn't exist, so I'll make it" then that becomes a product in itself.

There's also the argument that furthering human knowledge enriches us all or, to put it more prosaically, just knowing things is good.

[Bob]

Yes, I am worried about the general balls-up my generation is making and the whirlwind we're sowing for the next generation. The chances of the world ending in the way you describe are, as you know, so remote though.

:handshake:
Yes i hope i put that slant on it - it wasn't meant to be an irresponsible post, merely an exercise to discuss the unknown.

However, i do think anti-matter bombs are a distinct possibility in our generation - not necessarily on the scale to end civilisation though.

Especially given the Americans are discussing the possibility of manufacturing a LHC! I'm not sure all this funding is allocated for scientific advancement. :grr:

[Neil Young]

Yes i hope i put that slant on it - it wasn't meant to be an irresponsible post, merely an exercise to discuss the unknown.

However, i do think anti-matter bombs are a distinct possibility in our generation - not necessarily on the scale to end civilisation though.

Especially given the Americans are discussing the possibility of manufacturing a LHC! I'm not sure all this funding is allocated for scientific advancement. :grr:

Yes, you did, though there is a lot of scaremongering in the media about things like this.

Having said that, your last comment makes a fair point that we shouldn't overlook.

:handshake:

[Mightycheese]

There's also the argument that furthering human knowledge enriches us all or, to put it more prosaically, just knowing things is good.

Yeah.
If we thought that there's no point wasting money on Scientific Research then we'd have no medicine, electricity, communications etc.
It's just that we've done the basic stuff and it'll cost more money to do the in-depth stuff.

If we can crack something like Stable Nuclear Fusion, then we're laughing.

[rnm]

Charles was on our flight to Monaco a couple of seasons ago. He's short. but a good fella.


funny that, he was sat behind me on the way back from sri lanka last month

[Abro100]

Cool i get the God particle theory then, should of stuck with physics i got a A* in it, used to like it. But once they find it what can they achieve with the dark energy etc, just being able to sleep easy?

[Bob]

Cool i get the God particle theory then, should of stuck with physics i got a A* in it, used to like it. But once they find it what can they achieve with the dark energy etc, just being able to sleep easy?
nah A-level physics is nothing like this, or it wasn't when i did it. All vectors and that pish!

[Abro100]

Im doing chemistry and biology in my degree coruse now but its all food related, easy stuff really; density, volume, changes in particles when heated or cooled etc.

[Bob]

Im doing chemistry and biology in my degree coruse now but its all food related, easy stuff really; density, volume, changes in particles when heated or cooled etc.
Ah kinetic energy, in other words the reason the milk goes in last :handshake:

[Abro100]

Kind of but more on the chemical changed when we toast bread and its a chemicle change because the partuicle allignment in the sugar of the bread change, bu when we heat up a egg they stay the same.

[Bob]

Kind of but more on the chemical changed when we toast bread and its a chemicle change because the partuicle allignment in the sugar of the bread change, bu when we heat up a egg they stay the same.
Interesting shit, eh :shake:

[Abro100]

Lol i know, i wanna blow stuff up.

[Guest]

Never did A-level physics, my teachers thought i was too smart for that.

[Neil Young]

How wrong they were.

:handshake:

[Guest]

How wrong they were.

:handshake:

Wrong. :handshake:

[disco]

Never did A-level physics, my teachers thought i was too smart for that.

I dumped A-Level physics (which would have been a gimme A) for French thinking it would come in handy....... hmmm..... hardly spoken a fucking word of it since :haha:

[Mattshark]

[QUOTE=Chronowe still can't cure a common cold.[/QUOTE]
No such thing, tyhe cold is and will forever be incurable because it is a different virus each time and it has already pretty much shipped out when you feel the effects.

[Neil Young]

I dumped A-Level physics (which would have been a gimme A) for French thinking it would come in handy....... hmmm..... hardly spoken a fucking word of it since :haha:

Maybe if you went to France...?

[Red_Polo]

Wrong. :handshake:

Yeah, that's what he said :D

[Guest]

Yeah, that's what he said :D

You didn't do negation in Maths it seems. ;) He's wrong to say that it's wrong. :D

[Red_Polo]

You didn't do negation in Maths it seems.

...is ¬correct ;)

You have to use all that shit in programming I take it?

[Bob]

...is ¬correct ;)

You have to use all that shit in programming I take it?
!rubbish

[The_weatherman]

Aaaandd finished :handshake: Good post Bob.

[Mumsafan]

Aaaandd finished :handshake: Good post Bob.

:haha:

[Nicey]

I liked Angels & Demons :o

I thought it was alright, typical Dan Brown stuff, same characters different story but still kept me interested.

[Nicey]

I can’t help but feel that these hugely expensive particular accelerators are akin Monkeys cracking rocks together to see what’s on the inside. The next big thing or the thing of the day because its here now is nanotechnology and quantum computing, the price of science in certain quantitive areas should drop dramatically as our processing power increases exponentially, not just by moores law which incidentally is due to break down in the next few years due to physical size constraints but as we truly enter the age of quantum computing and nanotech combined, our ability to figure things out and make stuff will be more unimaginable than the universe it self. The societal implications are dramatic, not only will we soon live in the a world were which understand far better than today also we will live in a world were resources such as , as its topical, trees for instance would not be needed to chop down, the whole issue of “resources” would be turned on its head. We live very much in a resource society, what would happed if you did need stuff to make stuff, just technology. Anyways I am getting slightly off point, when this latest particle bad boy fires up we should be able to answer some very profound questions. I believe it should be able to shed light on various String Theories and also the idea of a Multi verse which is very much all the rage in physics at the moment. I believe the chances of anything untoward happening to the universe or our planet because of these experiments is so infidesimally small its not worth mentioning, but then again if you believe in the multiverse model then theoretically everything that can happen does happen somewhere, perhaps we are the unlucky Universe that triggers one of these experiments off in not the best way possible, regardless the entire Universe would vanish quicker than you could say Good B………….

Interesting thread mate:handshake: