Jack Straw's comments

[Shaggy]

Thoughts?

[PTP]

don't know - er....... what he say?

[Reece]

He has a point no?

Maybe this thread isn't a good idea though....

[Rich]

It's a tough one - but how do you police and managed things like Driving Tests, if women wear the full head dress? Surely, it is open to abuse.

[Slammer]

politics???? haven't a clue what he's said, done or to a point who he is!

[Shaggy]

I think he has a point Reece and yes, this thread may be a little incendiary. Still, it’s a talking point innit.

*runs and takes cover*

[paulcooper4]

shall i.......

[Rocket]

this thread will kick off soon

especially when Fredo shows up.

[Bob]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm


Straw 'opposes all Muslim veils'

Jack Straw

Jack Straw on Today
Cabinet Minister Jack Straw has said he would prefer Muslim women not to wear veils at all.

The Commons leader said he did not want to be "prescriptive" but he believed that covering people's faces could make community relations more difficult.

Mr Straw has said he asks Muslim women at his Blackburn constituency surgeries if they would mind removing veils.

Some Muslim women called his remarks insulting, but other Muslims said they understood his concerns.

Mr Straw is Labour MP for Blackburn, where about 30% of residents are Muslim.

He sparked controversy when he told his local paper he asked female constituents visiting his surgery if they would uncover their faces - something they had all so far agreed to do.

Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he would rather the veils be discarded completely, Mr Straw replied: "Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather."


Mr Straw explained the impact he thought veils could have in a society where watching facial expressions was important for contact between different people.

"Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers - people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able pass the time of day," he said.

"That's made more difficult if people are wearing a veil. That's just a fact of life.

"I understand the concerns but I hope, however, there can be a mature debate about this.

"I come to this out of a profound commitment to equal rights for Muslim communities and an equal concern about adverse development about parallel communities."

'Separateness' fears

Mr Straw, seen as a potential candidate for Labour's deputy leadership, stressed it was a choice for women and he was making a request and not a demand.

"What I've been struck by when I've been talking to some of the ladies concerned is that they had not, I think, been fully aware of the potential in terms of community relations," he said.

"I mean, they'd thought of it just as a statement for themselves, in some cases they regard themselves as very religious - and I respect that - but as I say, I just wanted to put this issue on the table."

He said he was worried the "implications of separateness" and the development of "parallel communities".

Downing Street said Mr Straw was expressing a private opinion and Tony Blair thought it was reasonable to do so.

'Dangerous doctrine'

Mr Straw's comments have provoked a mixed response from Muslim groups.

The Islamic Human Rights Commission labelled the article "astonishing" and accused Mr Straw of discrimination.

The Protect-Hijab organisation said the "appalling" comments showed "a deep lack of understanding".

But Dr Daud Abdullah, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he could understand Mr Straw's discomfort adding that women could choose to remove the veil.

Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said it would be "dangerous doctrine" to tell people how to dress.

"If a person is making a statement about how they want to dress, I think it's pretty important we live in a country where you're allowed to do that," he said.

And Liberal Democrat president Simon Hughes accused Mr Straw of being insensitive.

"The experience of visiting their MP is difficult enough for many people without having to consider a dress code," said Mr Hughes.

Muslim Labour MP Shahid Malik applauded Mr Straw for being honest and said he was entitled to make his request as long as he respected the decision of people who refused the request.

Mr Malik said the remarks came on the trail of other media stories about Muslims and he appealed for calm.

"The problem is not necessarily what Jack is saying but the climate in which he's saying it," he said.

[Rich]

What other ways are there for identification purposes that can be used for official matters?

[warrenpeace]

A lot of communication is based on facial expression, body language etc, so I can absolutely see why old Jack would feel uncomfortable talking to someone dressed in lose robes and wearing a veil. I know I certainly wouldn't like it.

edit: just seen long cut and paste above. Nevermind.

[paulcooper4]

What other ways are there for identification purposes that can be used for official matters?
KK07 could sniff under there smocks to identify these ladies

[PTP]

ok, i just read about it on BBC - i see where he is coming from, and although I respect/understand muslims beliefs I agree with Straw - IMO he hasn't said anything wrong - just that he believes if muslim woman didn't cover their faces with veils it might help/benefit communication.

[Shaggy]

A lot of communication is based on facial expression, body language etc, so I can absolutely see why old Jack would feel uncomfortable talking to someone dressed in lose robes and wearing a veil. I know I certainly wouldn't like it.

Me neither.

Not one of the women Mr Straw asked refused to take off their veils. Maybe they’re not in a position to say no, I dunno, but I do think he has a point.

[Paul.S]

KK07 could sniff under there smocks to identify these ladies


Keep the thread serious yeah please mate :handshake:

I think it does distance those wearing the viels from other people. Its a hard one this.

[Slammer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm


Straw 'opposes all Muslim veils'

Jack Straw

Jack Straw on Today
Cabinet Minister Jack Straw has said he would prefer Muslim women not to wear veils at all.

The Commons leader said he did not want to be "prescriptive" but he believed that covering people's faces could make community relations more difficult.

Mr Straw has said he asks Muslim women at his Blackburn constituency surgeries if they would mind removing veils.

Some Muslim women called his remarks insulting, but other Muslims said they understood his concerns.

Mr Straw is Labour MP for Blackburn, where about 30% of residents are Muslim.

He sparked controversy when he told his local paper he asked female constituents visiting his surgery if they would uncover their faces - something they had all so far agreed to do.

Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he would rather the veils be discarded completely, Mr Straw replied: "Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather."


Mr Straw explained the impact he thought veils could have in a society where watching facial expressions was important for contact between different people.

"Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers - people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able pass the time of day," he said.

"That's made more difficult if people are wearing a veil. That's just a fact of life.

"I understand the concerns but I hope, however, there can be a mature debate about this.

"I come to this out of a profound commitment to equal rights for Muslim communities and an equal concern about adverse development about parallel communities."

'Separateness' fears

Mr Straw, seen as a potential candidate for Labour's deputy leadership, stressed it was a choice for women and he was making a request and not a demand.

"What I've been struck by when I've been talking to some of the ladies concerned is that they had not, I think, been fully aware of the potential in terms of community relations," he said.

"I mean, they'd thought of it just as a statement for themselves, in some cases they regard themselves as very religious - and I respect that - but as I say, I just wanted to put this issue on the table."

He said he was worried the "implications of separateness" and the development of "parallel communities".

Downing Street said Mr Straw was expressing a private opinion and Tony Blair thought it was reasonable to do so.

'Dangerous doctrine'

Mr Straw's comments have provoked a mixed response from Muslim groups.

The Islamic Human Rights Commission labelled the article "astonishing" and accused Mr Straw of discrimination.

The Protect-Hijab organisation said the "appalling" comments showed "a deep lack of understanding".

But Dr Daud Abdullah, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he could understand Mr Straw's discomfort adding that women could choose to remove the veil.

Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said it would be "dangerous doctrine" to tell people how to dress.

"If a person is making a statement about how they want to dress, I think it's pretty important we live in a country where you're allowed to do that," he said.

And Liberal Democrat president Simon Hughes accused Mr Straw of being insensitive.

"The experience of visiting their MP is difficult enough for many people without having to consider a dress code," said Mr Hughes.

Muslim Labour MP Shahid Malik applauded Mr Straw for being honest and said he was entitled to make his request as long as he respected the decision of people who refused the request.

Mr Malik said the remarks came on the trail of other media stories about Muslims and he appealed for calm.

"The problem is not necessarily what Jack is saying but the climate in which he's saying it," he said.


he's a very brave man or incredibly stupid............... i don't understand all this muslim stuff but if its part of their religion to cover up...who are we to tell them to take it off?

[Reece]

he's a very brave man or incredibly stupid............... i don't understand all this muslim stuff but if its part of their religion to cover up...who are we to tell them to take it off?

Not a muslim country.

[Bob]

"I understand the concerns but I hope, however, there can be a mature debate about this."

Fair enough, but my take on it is we shouldn't be telling Muslims what not to be doing/wearing. Just like they shouldn't be telling us not to celebrate Christmas etc. Live and let live i say - despite his reason for airing his views.

[BobTheCharmer]

If folk choose to come live over here then they should accept our way of life and the way our society is. Women dressed from head to toe in black is wrong. If they or their family don't like it. GO BACK HOME. Easy.

[PTP]

The thing is, he isn't TELLING anyone to take them off - he requests them to do so - IMO, due to the current climate surronding muslims etc, this has been blown out of proportion

[Shaggy]

Fair enough, but my take on it is we shouldn't be telling Muslims what not to doing/wearing. Just like they shouldn't be telling us not to celebrate Christmas etc. Live and let live i say - despite his reason for airing his views.

But it’s not the way over here. We readily accept that if we go to another country, like India for example, we have to embrace their customs and respect their way of life. Why doesn’t the reverse apply?

[PTP]

Shaggy - what have you started:o I hope you're happy now:crackoff:

[Reece]

Fair enough, but my take on it is we shouldn't be telling Muslims what not to doing/wearing. Just like they shouldn't be telling us not to celebrate Christmas etc. Live and let live i say - despite his reason for airing his views.

If a western girl goes somewhere in a muslim country, chances are they will be made to cover up, or faith the wraith of local women.

When in Rome etc.

I have no problem whatsoever with Muslim women covering up. But I think there will be certain times that they will be required to uncover (i.e. driving tests, police photo fits). This is nothing to do with religion, this is plain common sense.

[PTP]

surely tho on driving license and passports they can't cover up - I thought that has been the case for years

[Shaggy]

Shaggy - what have you started:o I hope you're happy now:crackoff:


:crackoff:

Very happy ta…thought I’d start this and then nip orf to the boozer. See ya later suckers! :crackoff:

[Bob]

We can't continue this thread without something to relate to...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/the_maestro/image0011.jpg

Groucho's find

[Shaggy]

:haha:

[Reece]

I was in a hospital once with my little brother who would have been about 6 at the time.
He asked me (rather loudly) why there were a load of ninjas in the hospital.

[Rich]

surely tho on driving license and passports they can't cover up - I thought that has been the case for years

I probably don't know what I'm talking about.... :handshake: :D

[PTP]

groucho's find :eyebrow:

[Red_hot]

I was in a hospital once with my little brother who would have been about 6 at the time.
He asked me (rather loudly) why there were a load of ninjas in the hospital.


:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Snigger]

I grew up in Africa, some of that time was spent in Muslim North African countries and as a guest of their country I was more than happy to abide by customes, rules and laws. For example Saudi is dry, and yes expats do drink there but they do it behind closed doors so as not to offend anyone. I expect the same courtesy from other cultures visiting or moving to my country and if they can't or won't then they shouldn't come. We are a multi cultural society that in the main works, however there is no room for extremism and for me - making a woman wear all that shit is not about Islam but close to abuse.

[PTP]

I was in a hospital once with my little brother who would have been about 6 at the time.
He asked me (rather loudly) why there were a load of ninjas in the hospital.

:haha:

[Shaggy]

I grew up in Africa, some of that time was spent in Muslim North African countries and as a guest of their country I was more than happy to abide by customes, rules and laws. For example Saudi is dry, and yes expats do drink there but they do it behind closed doors so as not to offend anyone. I expect the same courtesy from other cultures visiting or moving to my country and if they can't or won't then they shouldn't come. We are a multi cultural society that in the main works, however there is no room for extremism and for me - making a woman wear all that shit is not about Islam but close to abuse.

Hear fucking hear. :handshake:

[Dhav]

What is the principle behind wearing the veil? A Muslim person told it was so as not to arouse a man. Seems a bit dated and illogical to me, especially when you "lift the veil" and see what's behind it in most cases.

[Howard_lfc]

Fair enough, but my take on it is we shouldn't be telling Muslims what not to doing/wearing. Just like they shouldn't be telling us not to celebrate Christmas etc. Live and let live i say - despite his reason for airing his views.

My opinion differs vastly from yours Bob.

H

PS Straw wasn't telling the muslims what to wear - he was requesting that they remove it from their face for the duration of a one to one interview. There is a difference.

[paulcooper4]

What is the principle behind wearing the veil? A Muslim person told it was so as not to arouse a man. Seems a bit dated and illogical to me, especially when you "lift the veil" and see what's behind it in most cases.
:haha: :haha:

[PTP]

My opinion differs vastly from yours Bob.

H

PS Straw wasn't telling the muslims what to wear - he was requesting that they remove it from their face for the duration of a one to one interview. There is a difference.


exactly howard - see my posts further up - noone from our government has come out and said "all muslim women must not wear veils" - all gone overboard due to current circumstances in society.

[Chrono]

I grew up in Africa, some of that time was spent in Muslim North African countries and as a guest of their country I was more than happy to abide by customes, rules and laws. For example Saudi is dry, and yes expats do drink there but they do it behind closed doors so as not to offend anyone. I expect the same courtesy from other cultures visiting or moving to my country and if they can't or won't then they shouldn't come. We are a multi cultural society that in the main works, however there is no room for extremism and for me - making a woman wear all that shit is not about Islam but close to abuse.

Very well said :handshake:

[JRG]

I applaud Jack straw for raising this issue (no pun intended). I agree with some of the muslim commentators on TV last night who said that it is more a cultural affectation than a muslim one and that with time the use of the veil, not the Hijab, will probably dispappear. I have to say that I'm disgusted with those muslims who are using a reasonable request, and the opportunity to address an issue in a thoughtful way; as yet another opportunity to spout their hsyterical anti western bile. It now sounds like a broken record.

I think the point is that Muslim women should be given the choice of wearing a veil in this country, and it should be their choice alone. Islam, from what I know, does not set out to discriminate against women, rather the cultural intrepretation of the Q'uran has resulted in some muslim women wearing burqas and veils and being treated as their husband's chattels. Leave the choice with the women as they alone wear it.

[Neil Young]

What I heard yesterday:

Wearing the veil isn't a religious custom, it's a cultural norm in some parts of the Islamic world.

Some (as in not all and not none) women wear the veil entirely of their own choosing and it is not required by their husbands.

A "Muslim leader" expressed his outrage by saying that Jack Straw was asking women to "compromise" their beliefs.

Other Muslims interviewed were very moderate, even though many were concerned by what Jack Straw said.

My observations:

It was only a request although frankly Jack Straw needs to recognize that he is in a position of power when interviewing constituents who need his help.

I find doctrines or cultural norms which oppress women (according to my cultural norms) and use different standards from those applying to men to be objectionable and offensive.

It's a pity that that "Muslim leader" used "compromise" in its negative sense.

[PTP]

think about it tho - if yer wifes a minger you would definatly make her wear a veil:D

[Red_hot]

think about it tho - if yer wifes a minger you would definatly make her wear a veil:D

:haha:

[BobTheCharmer]

think about it tho - if yer wifes a minger you would definatly make her wear a veil:D

why would you have a minger for a wife? :confused:

[paulcooper4]

why would you have a minger for a wife? :confused:
keeps the burglars away:handshake:

[Diego]

What is the principle behind wearing the veil? A Muslim person told it was so as not to arouse a man. Seems a bit dated and illogical to me, especially when you "lift the veil" and see what's behind it in most cases.

if i remember correctly, this is not in the Qur'an, so it's not a direct religious law, but something enforced by the ruling class to show it's dominance...

[Rafanomenon]

Just out of interest, does anyone know if they are they allowed into petrol stations dressed like that as your not allowed in with a helmet on?!

IMO I think we are way too soft on other cultures over here, I'm not saying they shouldn't be here as I think it benefits the country but you go to Pakistan or somewhere similar and try building a church - can't see it happening myself.

[paulcooper4]

Just out of interest, does anyone know if they are they allowed into petrol stations dressed like that as your not allowed in with a helmet on?!

IMO I think we are way too soft on other cultures over here, I'm not saying they shouldn't be here as I think it benefits the country but you go to Pakistan or somewhere similar and try building a church - can't see it happening myself.
welcome to the site, dont be shy now, dive straight in:D :handshake:

[Red_hot]

welcome to the site, dont be shy now, dive straight in:D :handshake:

:haha:

[warrenpeace]

Just out of interest, does anyone know if they are they allowed into petrol stations dressed like that as your not allowed in with a helmet on?!

IMO I think we are way too soft on other cultures over here, I'm not saying they shouldn't be here as I think it benefits the country but you go to Pakistan or somewhere similar and try building a church - can't see it happening myself.


But we want to be judged on our own standards, not on the standards, or lack of them, of others.

[BobTheCharmer]

keeps the burglars away:handshake:

get a big dog instead. your wife has to be the apple of your eye or what is the point?

[Neil Young]

Just out of interest, does anyone know if they are they allowed into petrol stations dressed like that as your not allowed in with a helmet on?!

I doubt there's been many instances of people trying to rob petrol stations while wearing the veil.

[paulcooper4]

get a big dog instead.
theres a difference?:eyebrow:

[Red_hot]

I doubt there's been many instances of people trying to rob petrol stations while wearing the veil.

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[warrenpeace]

I doubt there's been many instances of people trying to rob petrol stations while wearing the veil.

Veils will be the new shell suits now you've put the idea out there.

[PTP]

why would you have a minger for a wife? :confused:

arranged marriages

[Dhav]

if i remember correctly, this is not in the Qur'an, so it's not a direct religious law, but something enforced by the ruling class to show it's dominance...

I dont doubt that - I have spoken to devoted Muslims about this some of whom think all this veil stuff is quite frankly bollocks. If Muhammed had said it then I'm sure every Muslim woman would be wearing one as opposed to the relatively few who do.

[BobTheCharmer]

theres a difference?:eyebrow:

there certainly will be in my case old boy. I've fully checked out the family history on my current filly. Mother is of acceptable size given her age, childhood photo's of my filly have given no reason for concern and she likes to keep her person well trimmed. If she goes all Vanessa Feltz on me after that I'll trade her in.

[Rafanomenon]

But we want to be judged on our own standards, not on the standards, or lack of them, of others.

Its a fair comment however we are always setting the standards, thats why I believe we are a haven for immigrants/assylum seekers from every country - they know we are too soft.

Assylum seekers are supposed to stop at the first friendly country, if thats the case we should only be letting in people from France, Belgium, Germany etc... There is a reason for this

[paulcooper4]

there certainly will be in my case old boy. I've fully checked out the family history on my current filly. Mother is of acceptable size given her age, childhood photo's of my filly have given no reason for concern and she likes to keep her person well trimmed. If she goes all Vanessa Feltz on me after that I'll trade her in.
splendid old bean:handshake:

[Rafanomenon]

welcome to the site, dont be shy now, dive straight in:D :handshake:

Thanks!! :D :handshake:

[Snigger]

Some of the get ups they wear you'd have no idea if it was man, woman or beast lurking behind the little slit for the eyes - great for a robbery. Anyone thinking that it's woman's choice to wear those things is dilusional - yes SOME do chose to wear it but many are made to and if you don't believe me go and have a chat with Rupert, the leader of the Taliban.

[Bob]

if i remember correctly, this is not in the Qur'an, so it's not a direct religious law, but something enforced by the ruling class to show it's dominance...
I read the woman section of an interpretation of the Qur'an, and to be honest I have no idea. I couldn't believe what i was reading it to be fair. It's so archaic, and degrading to my beliefs that i struggled to read it.

[Howard_lfc]

Just out of interest, does anyone know if they are they allowed into petrol stations dressed like that as your not allowed in with a helmet on?!

IMO I think we are way too soft on other cultures over here, I'm not saying they shouldn't be here as I think it benefits the country but you go to Pakistan or somewhere similar and try building a church - can't see it happening myself.

Amen to that. Welcome Rafa'.

[Neil Young]

Anyone thinking that it's woman's choice to wear those things is dilusional - yes SOME do chose to wear it

A rare moment of clarity for Archie as he recognizes he's delusional.

[warrenpeace]

Its a fair comment however we are always setting the standards, thats why I believe we are a haven for immigrants/assylum seekers from every country - they know we are too soft.

Assylum seekers are supposed to stop at the first friendly country, if thats the case we should only be letting in people from France, Belgium, Germany etc... There is a reason for this

There is more than one reason, all of which appear in the Daily Mail a couple of times a day.

[Rafanomenon]

Amen to that. Welcome Rafa'.

Cheers :handshake:

[PTP]

There is more than one reason, all of which appear in the Daily Mail a couple of times a day.

please elaborate - I don't read the mail.

[Snigger]

A rare moment of clarity for Archie as he recognizes he's delusional.

I recognised it years ago.

[Anfield Mole]

Thoughts?


I think he has as much right to ask a woman to remove the Niqab as a bank has to ask someone who rides a motorbike to remove their helmet.

[Lecter]

IMO I think we are way too soft on other cultures over here, I'm not saying they shouldn't be here as I think it benefits the country but you go to Pakistan or somewhere similar and try building a church - can't see it happening myself.

Couldnt agree more

Frankly I dont care who comes to this country as long as they abide by our laws its fine by me

One of the things that has amazed me in the last 12 months is the call from some Muslims living in the UK to be governed according Shariya (sp) law. I'm sorry but thats total bollocks you live in the UK you abide by the laws of the land, you want to be governed according to another set of laws find a country that governs according to those laws.

The UK imo has gone PC mad. Only yesterday there was an article in one of the papers about Christian schools being forced to allow Non-Christians to attend their schools, yet Muslim schools in the UK are refusing to allow pupils of other religious persuasions to attend their schools

You cant have one rule for one group of people and not apply the same rules to another

As for Jack Straws comments its only his opinion

[Red_hot]

Couldnt agree more

Frankly I dont care who comes to this country as long as they abide by our laws its fine by me

One of the things that has amazed me in the last 12 months is the call from some Muslims living in the UK to be governed according Shariya (sp) law. I'm sorry but thats total bollocks you live in the UK you abide by the laws of the land, you want to be governed according to another set of laws find a country that governs according to those laws.

The UK imo has gone PC mad. Only yesterday there was an article in one of the papers about Christian schools being forced to allow Non-Christians to attend their schools, yet Muslim schools in the UK are refusing to allow pupils of other religious persuasions to attend their schools

You cant have one rule for one group of people and not apply the same rules to another

As for Jack Straws comments its only his opinion

:handshake:

[Rafanomenon]

Couldnt agree more

Frankly I dont care who comes to this country as long as they abide by our laws its fine by me

One of the things that has amazed me in the last 12 months is the call from some Muslims living in the UK to be governed according Shariya (sp) law. I'm sorry but thats total bollocks you live in the UK you abide by the laws of the land, you want to be governed according to another set of laws find a country that governs according to those laws.

The UK imo has gone PC mad. Only yesterday there was an article in one of the papers about Christian schools being forced to allow Non-Christians to attend their schools, yet Muslim schools in the UK are refusing to allow pupils of other religious persuasions to attend their schools

You cant have one rule for one group of people and not apply the same rules to another

As for Jack Straws comments its only his opinion

Sounds like you are on my wavelength :handshake:

One of the things that pissed me off was during the world cup when there was all the hype about the St George cross offending people from other countries.........WTF! What a mad place we live in if we can't fly our own National flag in our own country!

If they don't like it then why did they come here, its give and take in a multicultural society but it seems to me they all just take!

Boils my piss!!

[Red_hot]

Sounds like you are on my wavelength :handshake:

One of the things that pissed me off was during the world cup when there was all the hype about the St George cross offending people from other countries.........WTF! What a mad place we live in if we can't fly our own National flag in our own country!

If they don't like it then why did they come here, its give and take in a multicultural society but it seems to me they all just take!

Boils my piss!!

Hear Hear! :handshake:

[Rich]

Sounds like you are on my wavelength :handshake:

One of the things that pissed me off was during the world cup when there was all the hype about the St George cross offending people from other countries.........WTF! What a mad place we live in if we can't fly our own National flag in our own country!

If they don't like it then why did they come here, its give and take in a multicultural society but it seems to me they all just take!

Boils my piss!!

Very funny.... :D

[BobTheCharmer]

To be fair I guess what these women wear is no different to the guy that played Bungle used to get away with back in the day.

We should all dress up. That would f**k the big brother CCTV rulers right up.

Imagine crimewatch. We're looking for a pantomine horse, a man in an ape suit and a scooby doo impersonator in the alledged rape of Little red riding hood.

[Red_hot]

hehehehe

[Los Rojos]

You've got to respect each other's religion but there should always be integration into the society you choose to live in.

I was very friendly with a muslim lad who worked with me for years until he got a better job in Yorkshire. His wife didn't cover her face with a veil and I bet my mate was glad she didn't. She was stunning.

[Shaggy]

I've got to agree with Shaggy and Snigger on this. You've got to respect each other's religion but there should always be integration into the society you choose to live in.

I was very friendly with a muslim lad who worked with me for years until he got a better job in Yorkshire. His wife didn't cover her face with a veil and I bet my mate was glad she didn't. She was stunning.


There’s a Muslim girl in my office who doesn’t wear a veil. I wish she fucking would – she mings to high heaven.

[Rafanomenon]

There’s a Muslim girl in my office who doesn’t wear a veil. I wish she fucking would – she mings to high heaven.

:haha: :haha:

[BobTheCharmer]

There’s a Muslim girl in my office who doesn’t wear a veil. I wish she fucking would – she mings to high heaven.

yes they do smell a little don't they? must be the curry.

[Los Rojos]

Fair enough, but my take on it is we shouldn't be telling Muslims what not to be doing/wearing. Just like they shouldn't be telling us not to celebrate Christmas etc. Live and let live i say - despite his reason for airing his views.

Last Christmas Lambeth council banned the use of the term 'Christmas lights' in case it offended the muslim community. :shake:

[Snigger]

Last Christmas Lambeth council banned the use of the term 'Christmas lights' in case it offended the muslim community. :shake:

stupid fuckers

[Rich]

Last Christmas Lambeth council banned the use of the term 'Christmas lights' in case it offended the muslim community. :shake:

Utterly ridiculous, the pc brigade are wankers, and are somehow running this bloody country.

[BobTheCharmer]

Utterly ridiculous, the pc brigade are wankers, and are somehow running this bloody country.

that is what happens when you let labour in I'm afraid. If only there were a happy medium.

[Rafanomenon]

I've been thinking about this a bit more and all of this PC madness is tantamount(sp) to Racism against the British people - by British people!

How stupid is that - we are racist towards ourselves just so we don't offend anyone else!

[paulcooper4]

I've been thinking about this a bit more and all of this PC madness is tantamount(sp) to Racism against the British people - by British people!

How stupid is that - we are racist towards ourselves just so we don't offend anyone else!
:handshake: blackboards are now chalkboards, black pudding is savoury pudding its going bananas. Can I even say bananas???

[Helios Creed]

I was in a hospital once with my little brother who would have been about 6 at the time.
He asked me (rather loudly) why there were a load of ninjas in the hospital.

My daughter thought that the extremely talented Hardeep fellow on Celeb MasterChef was a genie. :)

[Mumsafan]

My daughter thought that the extremely talented Hardeep fellow on Celeb MasterChef was a genie. :)


He's a Sikh not a Muslim!

[Snigger]

that is what happens when you let labour in I'm afraid. If only there were a happy medium.

here's one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/years/1996/gallery/340/mysticmeg.jpg

[Anfield Mole]

here's one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/years/1996/gallery/340/mysticmeg.jpg



BURN THE WITCH

[Red_hot]

Can't even use Surname and Christian name anymore. Has to be first and last night! Bloody stoopid!!!

[warrenpeace]

Is surname a problem? In fairness only Christians are going to have christian names

[Neil Young]

Can't even use Surname and Christian name anymore. Has to be first and last night! Bloody stoopid!!!

Why is it stupid? I'm not Christian - why should it be assumed I am?

Are you sure "surname" has a similar association?

Of course there are examples of being over-sensitive towards other groups but is it really always such a bad thing to be thoughtful about others who do not share your beliefs?

[Snigger]

Is surname a problem? In fairness only Christians are going to have christian names

yes - that was the point. Why should we have to change our language and beliefs to placate immigrants.

[Snigger]

Why is it stupid? I'm not Christian - why should it be assumed I am?

Are you sure "surname" has a similar association?

Of course there are examples of being over-sensitive towards other groups but is it really always such a bad thing to be thoughtful about others who do not share your beliefs?


So what do you call Christmas?

[Rich]

Why is it stupid? I'm not Christian - why should it be assumed I am?

Are you sure "surname" has a similar association?

Of course there are examples of being over-sensitive towards other groups but is it really always such a bad thing to be thoughtful about others who do not share your beliefs?

So if somebody asked you for your Christian Name, would you refuse to answer?

[Neil Young]

None of that answers my question.

[Tom]

Thoughts?

I'm not sure. Instinctively I feel he's wrong, but I'm open to persuasion.

Interestingly the veil is actually a christian, byzantine, orthodox invention that was taken up by the ottoman empire when it invaded Constantinople. From the ottoman empire it spread throughout the Islamic world.

Some historical context for you anyhow.

[Tom]

I've been thinking about this a bit more and all of this PC madness is tantamount(sp) to Racism against the British people - by British people!

How stupid is that - we are racist towards ourselves just so we don't offend anyone else!

eh?

[Snigger]

None of that answers my question.

the answer to your question is obviously no, but it can go too far.

Now, what do you call Christmas?

[Rafanomenon]

eh?

What - you don't think the surpression of our national symbols is in anyway racist?:o

Try telling a Pakistani that he can't fly his national flag - it would be all over the papers touted as racism.

Its the same thing just in reverse!

[Tom]

How is the union jack being supressed? Show me the law, that says it is not allowed to be flown.

[Tom]

the answer to your question is obviously no, but it can go too far.

Now, what do you call Christmas?

What do you call divali?
Whad do you call passover or ramadan?

They are specific religious festivals.
I call christmas, christmas, other people I know call it midwinter. What's the problem?

[Rafanomenon]

How is the union jack being supressed? Show me the law, that says it is not allowed to be flown.

I don't actually recall saying it was against the law :whatever:

What I did say is that there were suggestions that we should stop flying the St George flag (around world cup time I think) - anyone from the UK would be able to recall the PC madness at the time.

There are other instances where PC madness has suggested we ban things that are deemed too English - that to me is racist.

[Tom]

Neil's right, this is nothing to do with "racism against ourselves" whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. It's about being thoughtful about others who have different belief systems.

[Tom]

I don't actually recall saying it was against the law :whatever:

Well how is it being supressed then? By the tooth fairy? Who or what is this mysterious force that has the power to supress national symbols without recourse to legal process. When you've worked it out, I'd be interested to know. Last time I looked the flag was still flying off buck palace....


What I did say is that there were suggestions that we should stop flying the St George flag (around world cup time I think) - anyone from the UK would be able to recall the PC madness at the time.

Can you give me examples of this, that aren't based on tabloid anecdote. It's just that right wing tabloids often make stories like this up. When you dig a bit deeper you find that it's bullshit. Still it does work very well to stir up hotheads.....


There are other instances where PC madness has suggested we ban things that are deemed too English - that to me is racist.


Again some evidence would be nice.

[redlancer]

I've been thinking about this a bit more and all of this PC madness is tantamount(sp) to Racism against the British people - by British people!

How stupid is that - we are racist towards ourselves just so we don't offend anyone else!

this country has had for a very long time positive discrimination

back in the 80's a friend of my mum's had to employ a community nurse that was female and black. This was in the west midlands. In the end she had to employ someone who wasn't up to the job, so she left.

I lived in Wolves for a year, now mosk's to me look a blot on the land scape, would anyone get planning permission for something as ugly as them? WOuld a christian get permission to build a church in thier country. No but then we did do the crusades.
Its about time we forgave ourselves for the likes of the crusades and said you live here by our rules.

If a 9inch knife is ceremonial it can be carried around, yet i was out with my mate and 4 nurses and yet 4 lads carrying ceremonial knifes didn't seem very religious to me!!!!

I have no problems with anyones beliefs unless it effects my life in a negative or offensive way.

If i have to abide by other country's rules to avoid offence so should they.
Its showing respect to your hosts
But that's it, women in viels etc is classing them as 2nd class citizens and not an equal.

Imagine if we had ugly viels, come to think of it I work in Bolton and it would be a very very good thing, but these people have every right to show off thier ugly mug if they want to.

[zimbo]

I don't actually recall saying it was against the law :whatever:

What I did say is that there were suggestions that we should stop flying the St George flag (around world cup time I think) - anyone from the UK would be able to recall the PC madness at the time.

There are other instances where PC madness has suggested we ban things that are deemed too English - that to me is racist.

Yeah, 'cos let's face it, you didn't see any St George's flags around during the World Cup did you?

Not on cars, not flying out of people's windows, nowhere.

[Lecter]

What do you call divali?
Whad do you call passover or ramadan?

They are specific religious festivals.
I call christmas, christmas, other people I know call it midwinter. What's the problem?

I think you have hit the nail on the head though Tom.. most normal people (irrespective of religious persuasion) call whatever religious festival by its true name

Its only the PC lunatics on councils that find it offensive

The country at the moment is being drowned in Political Correctness to the point that the government arent able or are unwilling to create policy for fear of upsetting someone and being accused of being politically incorrect / racist

[Snigger]

What do you call divali?
Whad do you call passover or ramadan?

They are specific religious festivals.
I call christmas, christmas, other people I know call it midwinter. What's the problem?

If you'd bothered to read the thread you'd know.

[Tom]

this country has had for a very long time positive discrimination

back in the 80's a friend of my mum's had to employ a community nurse that was female and black. This was in the west midlands. In the end she had to employ someone who wasn't up to the job, so she left.

I lived in Wolves for a year, now mosk's to me look a blot on the land scape, would anyone get planning permission for something as ugly as them? WOuld a christian get permission to build a church in thier country. No but then we did do the crusades.
Its about time we forgave ourselves for the likes of the crusades and said you live here by our rules.

If a 9inch knife is ceremonial it can be carried around, yet i was out with my mate and 4 nurses and yet 4 lads carrying ceremonial knifes didn't seem very religious to me!!!!

I have no problems with anyones beliefs unless it effects my life in a negative or offensive way.

If i have to abide by other country's rules to avoid offence so should they.
Its showing respect to your hosts
But that's it, women in viels etc is classing them as 2nd class citizens and not an equal.

Imagine if we had ugly viels, come to think of it I work in Bolton and it would be a very very good thing, but these people have every right to show off thier ugly mug if they want to.

Jesus this is bigoted crap. I'm outta of this thread what a depressing range of responses.

[Tom]

If you'd bothered to read the thread you'd know.

I have read it, and your nasty little hate posts.

Would you ban jews from wearing skull caps? Would you ban sikhs from the turban? If not why not? Why make an exception for muslim women who chose the veil?

[Chrono]

Can you give me examples of this, that aren't based on tabloid anecdote. It's just that right wing tabloids often make stories like this up. When you dig a bit deeper you find that it's bullshit. Still it does work very well to stir up hotheads.....

Again some evidence would be nice.

Tescos made a formal apology in the press for requesting that their drivers and other members of staff do not display the flag of St. George.

I don't really see the necessity to wave a flag about all over the place but I do generally think that liberties are being lost to accomodate other faiths/cultures. It's funny that nobody ever considers accomodating atheists or agnostics to avoid getting caught up in all this backwards thinking religious balls.

[Snigger]

I have read it, and your nasty little hate posts.

Would you ban jews from wearing skull caps? Would you ban sikhs from the turban? If not why not? Why make an exception for muslim women who chose the veil?


ooooh look at Mr Sanctimonious. All I've said is that when I have lived in other countries I'm tolerant to their beliefs and laws and expect the same courtesy here. Would I ban jews from wearing skull caps etc...? of course fucking not but if hiding your identity behind anything be it a helmet or veil causes security concerns then there may be an issue. Local councils banning the word Christmas is as ludicrous as them banning any word for a religious festival.

[Anfield Mole]

From the BBC Website

The Commons leader said he did not want to be "prescriptive" but he believed that covering people's faces could make community relations more difficult


.....

He sparked controversy when he told his local paper he asked female constituents visiting his surgery if they would uncover their faces.


There are different types of veil for Muslim women depending on culture.

eg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils_and_headscarves/img/1.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils_and_headscarves/img/4.jpg

One might assume that Mr Straw was talking about the style below

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils_and_headscarves/img/2.jpg

[disco]

From the BBC Website

The Commons leader said he did not want to be "prescriptive" but he believed that covering people's faces could make community relations more difficult


.....

He sparked controversy when he told his local paper he asked female constituents visiting his surgery if they would uncover their faces.


There are different types of veil for Muslim women depending on culture.

eg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils_and_headscarves/img/1.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils_and_headscarves/img/4.jpg

One might assume that Mr Straw was talking about the style below

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils_and_headscarves/img/2.jpg


Isn't that last guy in Star Wars?



Sorry

[saveferris]

Some of the stuff in this thread is plain rude, I was under the impression that what made the UK a good place to live was the respect for cultural diversity (between all parties). I think there is also some massive over-reaction for what is a question that one person has asked others.

What Jack Straw asked was a question to whoever goes to see him wearing a veil, it wasn't a demand, it wasn't a threat just a simple question and the bbc article says that all the ladies comply with his request. Its their choice, they dont seem to have a problem with it. So why are people going on about Churches in Pakistan (where there are plenty, there are Christians there), how tourists are forced to cover themselves up when in Muslim country (a wacky thought here but maybe they wanted to show their own respect for where they are, plus no one told my mate in Egypt to cover up).

The veil is a cultural thing some wear it some dont, some wear hijabs some dont, why does it bother everyone else so much what a person is wearing, they aint bothering you.

There should be a respect for all religions, beliefs, races and I think each should be free to perform and celebrate as they see fit, by this I mean Christmas is what it is, thats its name, just like Eid, Ramadhan, Diwali, Hannukah this is where it gets silly.

Some of the posts on here have been quite offensive in my opinion and if we want est1892 to be a place for reasoned discussion then it would be good if it was eradicated as if it doesnt then its not enjoyable for anyone wanting to join in the discussion, things like this are a good opportunity to ask those in the know for education instead of making digs.:handshake:

[Hollowman]

I wonder what Straw would say if Kendo Nagasaki turned up for a meeting?

[swisshenchoz]

From the BBC Website
[i]


http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils_and_headscarves/img/2.jpg

Burqa's if worn in bright sunshine can lead to criss cross lines on the face when removed.

[Bob]

How is the union jack being supressed? Show me the law, that says it is not allowed to be flown.
Try wrapping it around your shoulders and walking down Garvaghy road ;)

[zimbo]

Some of the stuff in this thread is plain rude, I was under the impression that what made the UK a good place to live was the respect for cultural diversity (between all parties). I think there is also some massive over-reaction for what is a question that one person has asked others.

What Jack Straw asked was a question to whoever goes to see him wearing a veil, it wasn't a demand, it wasn't a threat just a simple question and the bbc article says that all the ladies comply with his request. Its their choice, they dont seem to have a problem with it. So why are people going on about Churches in Pakistan (where there are plenty, there are Christians there), how tourists are forced to cover themselves up when in Muslim country (a wacky thought here but maybe they wanted to show their own respect for where they are, plus no one told my mate in Egypt to cover up).

The veil is a cultural thing some wear it some dont, some wear hijabs some dont, why does it bother everyone else so much what a person is wearing, they aint bothering you.

There should be a respect for all religions, beliefs, races and I think each should be free to perform and celebrate as they see fit, by this I mean Christmas is what it is, thats its name, just like Eid, Ramadhan, Diwali, Hannukah this is where it gets silly.

Some of the posts on here have been quite offensive in my opinion and if we want est1892 to be a place for reasoned discussion then it would be good if it was eradicated as if it doesnt then its not enjoyable for anyone wanting to join in the discussion, things like this are a good opportunity to ask those in the know for education instead of making digs.:handshake:

Good points. Well made.

[Chrono]

Some of the stuff in this thread is plain rude, I was under the impression that what made the UK a good place to live was the respect for cultural diversity (between all parties). I think there is also some massive over-reaction for what is a question that one person has asked others.

What Jack Straw asked was a question to whoever goes to see him wearing a veil, it wasn't a demand, it wasn't a threat just a simple question and the bbc article says that all the ladies comply with his request. Its their choice, they dont seem to have a problem with it. So why are people going on about Churches in Pakistan (where there are plenty, there are Christians there), how tourists are forced to cover themselves up when in Muslim country (a wacky thought here but maybe they wanted to show their own respect for where they are, plus no one told my mate in Egypt to cover up).

The veil is a cultural thing some wear it some dont, some wear hijabs some dont, why does it bother everyone else so much what a person is wearing, they aint bothering you.

There should be a respect for all religions, beliefs, races and I think each should be free to perform and celebrate as they see fit, by this I mean Christmas is what it is, thats its name, just like Eid, Ramadhan, Diwali, Hannukah this is where it gets silly.

Some of the posts on here have been quite offensive in my opinion and if we want est1892 to be a place for reasoned discussion then it would be good if it was eradicated as if it doesnt then its not enjoyable for anyone wanting to join in the discussion, things like this are a good opportunity to ask those in the know for education instead of making digs.:handshake:

Fair point mate, my points were based on the Sharia(sp) law bit rather than anything to do with clothing.

What are your thoughts on that?

P.S. Not to go over old ground but "eradicating" a discussion is censorship and is equally offensive to me as the comments in this thread are to you :handshake:

[Red_hot]

Why is it stupid? I'm not Christian - why should it be assumed I am?

Are you sure "surname" has a similar association?

Of course there are examples of being over-sensitive towards other groups but is it really always such a bad thing to be thoughtful about others who do not share your beliefs?

No I agree we should be thoughtful but why should we have to change everything to suit others?? For example with the St George flags? Are we not allowed to have some type of national pride as well? PC has gone mad in this country.

[Bob]

I wonder what Straw would say if Kendo Nagasaki turned up for a meeting?
Am I Tom Cruise, and is this eyes wide shut?

[Kaip]

Burqa's if worn in bright sunshine can lead to criss cross lines on the face when removed.





:haha: :haha: :haha:

[saveferris]

Fair point mate, my points were based on the Sharia(sp) law bit rather than anything to do with clothing.

What are your thoughts on that?

P.S. Not to go over old ground but "eradicating" a discussion is censorship and is equally offensive to me as the comments in this thread are to you :handshake:

What I mean by "eradicating" is not referring to the discussion as a whole but some of the posts in it. All i mean is for people to take it easy, some posts were rude.

Look in terms of applying Shariah Law, that's their opinion. Anyone in the UK should abide by the laws in that country, which it also says in the Quran. Following your religions morals and beliefs should and can be incorporated into their personal lives. There is nothing to stop individuals to practice their own religion.

[Chrono]

What I mean by "eradicating" is not referring to the discussion as a whole but some of the posts in it. All i mean is for people to take it easy, some posts were rude.

Look in terms of applying Shariah Law, that's their opinion. Anyone in the UK should abide by the laws in that country, which it also says in the Quran. Following your religions morals and beliefs should and can be incorporated into their personal lives. There is nothing to stop individuals to practice their own religion.

You get intentionally offensive posts in every thread, just ignore it and anything else is just an opinion and is no less (?) valid than your own.

So you don't believe that Shariah law should be applicable over here in any respect?

[Helios Creed]

He's a Sikh not a Muslim!

I know, I was just sharing an amusing anecdote. :)

[Morph]

On a small asside, did anyone see the pictures in the echo this week, think it was the Liverpool Girls football team, and one of them was wearing a head dress, couldn't help but think there was no place for it on a football pitch. Surely there's safety questions, and would bring a whole new meaning to pulling someone back.

[BobTheCharmer]

There should be a respect for all religions, beliefs, races and I think each should be free to perform and celebrate as they see fit, by this I mean Christmas is what it is, thats its name, just like Eid, Ramadhan, Diwali, Hannukah this is where it gets silly.


This is England old boy.

[saveferris]

You get intentionally offensive posts in every thread, just ignore it and anything else is just an opinion and is no less (?) valid than your own.

So you don't believe that Shariah law should be applicable over here in any respect?

To be honest I don't know enough to say in any respect but my point is that the history of the UK is not Islamic like in countries where the law is applied. Being a good follower of any religion requires devotion and effort from individuals, but you must respect the laws and common practices where you live. I follow my religion as best I can but I am always learning and adapt my behaviour accordingly.

[Red_hot]

This is England old boy.

Well as Ferris says everyone should be able to practice their beliefs freely without abuse from others.

[saveferris]

This is England old boy.

Yes and have an enjoyable winter festival at the end of december:handshake:

[zimbo]

This is England old boy.


Which, as this thread shows, is full of Little Englanders.

[Snigger]

I know many non christians of various faiths and not one of them is offended by Christmas, in fact they celebrate the holiday if not the religious festival. Most of them are naturalised or born here and consider the Jack and Cross of St.George to be their flags as they consider themselves British, English, Scottish...whatever - If I asked one of them what their Christian name was they would tell me their first name as the English language evolves and words often lose the history behind their meaning - It's the PC tossers who make this into an issue

[saveferris]

yeah exactly its only the PC or the pedantic who get into a hoo ha over it

[Chrono]

Which, as this thread shows, is full of Little Englanders.

Whose a Little Englander?

At least make a point rather than a little hushed dig.

[MattBiscan]

Religion should be banned. It's very ignorant.

I'd like to think that through intellectual evolution it will one day be obsolete.

[Red_hot]

Oh fucking hell, here we go.

[Morph]

how is religion ignorant

[Red_hot]

how is religion ignorant

Don't encourage him mate! :handshake:

[swisshenchoz]

And we're off!

[Red_hot]

He must have some type of radar for this kind of post!

[JRG]

I know many non christians of various faiths and not one of them is offended by Christmas, in fact they celebrate the holiday if not the religious festival. Most of them are naturalised or born here and consider the Jack and Cross of St.George to be their flags as they consider themselves British, English, Scottish...whatever - If I asked one of them what their Christian name was they would tell me their first name as the English language evolves and words often lose the history behind their meaning - It's the PC tossers who make this into an issue

Good post, when Birmingham Council wanted to ban the use of the word christmas the sikh and muslim leaders I haerds speaking about it on Radio 4 said it was a ridicuous Idea as christmas doesn't offend anyone.

As for flags - look at the get up of Amir Khan's family in the olympics, his dad and uncle (jahangir I think) were dressed in unuon flag tuxedos. His mother wore a hijab I think but his sisters were dressed in a western manner. A great example of the blurring of the edges.

Integration is being hampered by the daily mail and the PC brigade as well as religious bigots on all sides.

Leave people to use their own common sense and have a bit of patience and all things even themselves out.

[swisshenchoz]

He must have some type of radar for this kind of post!

More like shitdar.

[MattBiscan]

how is religion ignorant

I just don't know how people can believe that a magic man in the sky zapped his mighty finger and made everything appear by magic and now he looks over us all like a big grandad and if we're 'good' (whatever the f*ck that means) we get to live with him in spaceland and if we're band we have to live with Uncle Satan in Skegness.

It's ridiculous, about as plausable as Santa Claus.

It is just used as a means of social control (sorry for the Marxist cliche but it's true)

[Red_hot]

More like shitdar.

:handshake:

[Snigger]

what do you mean no Santa Claus?

[Red_hot]

It's ridiculous, about as plausable as Santa Claus.



:cry:

[brikkis]

I just don't know how people can believe that a magic man in the sky zapped his mighty finger and made everything appear by magic and now he looks over us all like a big grandad and if we're 'good' (whatever the f*ck that means) we get to live with him in spaceland and if we're band we have to live with Uncle Satan in Skegness.

It's ridiculous, about as plausable as Santa Claus.

It is just used as a means of social control (sorry for the Marxist cliche but it's true)

Your fucked when you die

[swisshenchoz]

I just don't know how people can believe that a magic man in the sky zapped his mighty finger and made everything appear by magic and now he looks over us all like a big grandad and if we're 'good' (whatever the f*ck that means) we get to live with him in spaceland and if we're band we have to live with Uncle Satan in Skegness.

It's ridiculous, about as plausable as Santa Claus.

It is just used as a means of social control (sorry for the Marxist cliche but it's true)

There's no Santa Claus? :cry:

[Los Rojos]

Your fucked when you die

:haha:

[zimbo]

Whose a Little Englander?

At least make a point rather than a little hushed dig.

The statement was the point.
It was there for everyone to read. How is that hushed?

[BobTheCharmer]

Religion should be banned. It's very ignorant.

I'd like to think that through intellectual evolution it will one day be obsolete.

Seconded. Why can't people just live their lives through common sense and a willingness to be tolerant to others without having to resort to a book/scroll of faith?

[MattBiscan]

Your fucked when you die

:haha:

[Snigger]

Personally I believe more in Darwin than any man made religion - if there is a god it is the science that makes mother nature rather than a old man with a grey beard, however people are entitled to their beliefs without someone else coming over and shitting on them.lets face it there's a fuck a lot of people in the world who believe in a god of some sort, sadly some of them can't agree.

[MattBiscan]

Personally I believe more in Darwin than any man made religion - if their is a god it is the science that makes mother nature rather than a old man with a grey beard, however people are entitled to their beliefs without someone else coming over and shitting on them.lets face it there's a fuck a lot of people in the world who believe in a god of some sort, sadly some of them can't agree.

I agree with you partly and I agree that they are allowed to have that belief. But it's still ignorant and stupid.

I don't say that to their face though. I'm a coward.

[Morph]

I just don't know how people can believe that a magic man in the sky zapped his mighty finger and made everything appear by magic and now he looks over us all like a big grandad and if we're 'good' (whatever the f*ck that means) we get to live with him in spaceland and if we're band we have to live with Uncle Satan in Skegness.

It's ridiculous, about as plausable as Santa Claus.

It is just used as a means of social control (sorry for the Marxist cliche but it's true)

It's not just about that tho is it, it's about how it helps people during their time on earth. Some people have found religion and become a better person for it, some have been helped through troubled times by religion. Nobody knows whats going to happen when we finally bite the bullet, but if it makes your time on earth more comfortable, then whats the harm in it.

It might be that you don't believe there's God, but who else would you look to for help if you had no one else to turn to.

[Snigger]

I agree with you partly and I agree that they are allowed to have that belief. But it's still ignorant and stupid.

I don't say that to their face though. I'm a coward.

If you agree with me I must be wrong.

[Chrono]

The statement was the point.
It was there for everyone to read. How is that hushed?

So your statement was that a group of people, known only to you, are a group of Little Englanders based on something said at some point in the thread. Ok.

[swisshenchoz]

It might be that you don't believe there's God, but who else would you look to for help if you had no one else to turn to.

I find drink a great comfort.

:handshake:

[Snigger]

It's not just about that tho is it, it's about how it helps people during their time on earth. Some people have found religion and become a better person for it, some have been helped through troubled times by religion. Nobody knows whats going to happen when we finally bite the bullet, but if it makes your time on earth more comfortable, then whats the harm in it.

It might be that you don't believe there's God, but who else would you look to for help if you had no one else to turn to.

It also has the total opposite effect - 9/11 springs to ming.

[Morph]

Nah, drink just makes you more depressed

[Red_hot]

Well religion can be a good thing. It can give people hope. Fighting in the name of religion is wrong but I certainly have no problem with people having beliefs. There is nothing wrong with it and the only person on here who is ignorant and stupid is MB for coming out with the shite he constantly does.

[Morph]

It also has the total opposite effect - 9/11 springs to ming.

Yes but that's when things are twisted from the way's they were originaly intended to be taken. There's always going to be extremism in one way or another, but only those 9/11 pilots know if what they did was worth it.

[zimbo]

So your statement was that a group of people, known only to you, are a group of Little Englanders based on something said at some point in the thread. Ok.

Now you've got it!

[Snigger]

Yes but that's when things are twisted from the way's they were originaly intended to be taken. There's always going to be extremism in one way or another, but only those 9/11 pilots know if what they did was worth it.

indeed, but sadly it happens and has happened throughout the known history of this planet and the human race and those pilots would not have given up their lives unless they thought it was worth it.

[warrenpeace]

Yes but that's when things are twisted from the way's they were originaly intended to be taken. There's always going to be extremism in one way or another, but only those 9/11 pilots know if what they did was worth it.

But if I'm following this right aren't they dead and therefore fucked? :confused:

[Slim]

Religion should be banned. I'd like to think that through intellectual evolution it will one day be obsolete.

My God, Matt I actually partly agree with you on something! Coming from a country which has been ripped apart in the past by sectarianism I can honestly say I hate religion. Other people are entitled to their beliefs and I know not all people with a religious belief force it on others and a lot of religious people want to spread love and peace but personally it ain't for me.
The whole idea of there being a God etc is just superstitious nonsense for me and has no place in the 21st century. You might as well believe in Santa.
I don't wish to offend anybody though, its just my opinion.

[Morph]

Thing is i'd venture that religion has helped more people than it has harmed, however I don't know of any feasible way to quantify that.

[Reece]

I have read it, and your nasty little hate posts.


Woah, where exactly are these "nasty little hate posts"?

[Red_hot]

Thing is i'd venture that religion has more people than it has harmed, however I don't know of any feasible way to quantify that.

I would agree with you! :handshake:

[Mumsafan]

We're all dead and this is hell.

[Snigger]

Thing is i'd venture that religion has helped more people than it has harmed, however I don't know of any feasible way to quantify that.

Not if you are Jewish.

[swisshenchoz]

We're all dead and this is hell.

It's better than KopTalk, to be fair.

[Mumsafan]

I can't be bothered to read back the whole thread but someone said that the veil wearing malarky was nothing to do with Islam but was just a custom of Islamic countries. Well they've just had some Muslim scholar on from Blackburn (nice Blackburn accent there mate!) and he said it's definitely in the Qu'ran and is a teaching.

[warrenpeace]

It's better than KopTalk, to be fair.

If a little short on "grown-ups" :handshake:

[Morph]

I can't be bothered to read back the whole thread but someone said that the veil wearing malarky was nothing to do with Islam but was just a custom of Islamic countries. Well they've just had some Muslim scholar on from Blackburn (nice Blackburn accent there mate!) and he said it's definitely in the Qu'ran and is a teaching.

Most things can be twisted to be whatever you want them to be, seems like there isn't an answer to this question.

[warrenpeace]

I can't be bothered to read back the whole thread but someone said that the veil wearing malarky was nothing to do with Islam but was just a custom of Islamic countries. Well they've just had some Muslim scholar on from Blackburn (nice Blackburn accent there mate!) and he said it's definitely in the Qu'ran and is a teaching.


Nah, I remember when the Taliban were isisting on it, there was a big report in the Times or somewhere about how it was cultural and they were trying to make it out to be a religious obligation

[Mumsafan]

Nah, I remember when the Taliban were isisting on it, there was a big report in the Times or somewhere about how it was cultural and they were trying to make it out to be a religious obligation


Yu go and tell the fella in Blackburn then :D

[Snigger]

Nah, I remember when the Taliban were isisting on it, there was a big report in the Times or somewhere about how it was cultural and they were trying to make it out to be a religious obligation


Yes, but to be fair the Taliban are rather extreme.

[warrenpeace]

Yes, but to be fair the Taliban are rather extreme.

erm, I know.

[Morph]

The point still applies tho, it's a cultural thing rather than a religious thing, so I see no feasible why a person shouldn't be asked to remove the head dress for things like driving licenses etc.

[warrenpeace]

Yu go and tell the fella in Blackburn then :D

There is no way I'm going to f'in Blackburn :shake:

[Mumsafan]

The point still applies tho, it's a cultural thing rather than a religious thing, so I see no feasible why a person shouldn't be asked to remove the head dress for things like driving licenses etc.

So why is this fella allowed to say on national telly that it's in the Qu'ran?

[Snigger]

The point still applies tho, it's a cultural thing rather than a religious thing, so I see no feasible why a person shouldn't be asked to remove the head dress for things like driving licenses etc.

I don't think you'd be allowed to drive in the full kit.

[MattBiscan]

Thing is i'd venture that religion has helped more people than it has harmed, however I don't know of any feasible way to quantify that.

ignorance is bliss vs 100s of millions dying in the name of religion

You can do the math.

[warrenpeace]

So why is this fella allowed to say on national telly that it's in the Qu'ran?

Stone him

[Mumsafan]

I don't think you'd be allowed to drive in the full kit.


:haha:

[KK07]

ignorance is bliss vs 100s of millions dying in the name of religion

You can do the math.

Nobody can do the "Matt" like you mate :handshake:
Welcome back lad :D

[Mumsafan]

ignorance is bliss vs 100s of millions dying in the name of religion

You can do the math.


Lots of folk in Africa dying due to Catholicism and the ban on the use of condoms for safe sex leading to AIDS being rife. That's just one instance without mentioning war

[Slim]

I don't think you'd be allowed to drive in the full kit.

In Saudi Arabia women aren't allowed to drive at all!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,,1722501,00.html

[MattBiscan]

Nobody can do the "Matt" like you mate :handshake:
Welcome back lad :D

Cheers mate, it's ace to have nothing to do for 10 mins!! Got to run now though mate but will do my best to pop in when I can but rarely get a second now I've left work.

[Mumsafan]

In Saudi Arabia women aren't allowed to drive at all!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,,1722501,00.html


No drinking or driving?! What do they do all day!

[warrenpeace]

In Saudi Arabia women aren't allowed to drive at all!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,,1722501,00.html

Any crash statistics?

[Morph]

So why is this fella allowed to say on national telly that it's in the Qu'ran?

Well Bolton are allowed on national TV to call themselves a football team

[MattBiscan]

Lots of folk in Africa dying due to Catholicism and the ban on the use of condoms for safe sex leading to AIDS being rife. That's just one instance without mentioning war

Exactly. I should've said billions. And people have the audacity to say religion is a good thing

[Mumsafan]

Well Bolton are allowed on national TV to call themselves a football team

That's Lancashire for yer

[Chrono]

Exactly. I should've said billions. And people have the audacity to say religion is a good thing

:D You really like to wind it :D

[Anfield Mole]

In Saudi Arabia women aren't allowed to drive at all!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,,1722501,00.html


Oooh I am so tempted to respond to this one....................... but I won't.

:)

I delegate misogynistic comment this post deserves to someone else.

[Red_Polo]

My tuppence...

Not necesarily referring to what people have said on here but in response to some of the ridiculous views that have been aired since all this started.

1) Jack Straw as far as I can tell (and I haven't read all of his comments or heard exactly how he asked women to remove their veils) has said or done nothing wrong but the tabloid media have whipped people on both sides up into a frenzy of ignorant mud slinging. It is a fact that some veils seriously impinge on communication and I think Straw makes a very good point that community relations are built in part through chance meeting and communication of local people - a process some people are left out of if they wear certain types of veil.

2) Anyone who thinks the veil ought to be banned should be a little more tolerant, it's hardly something that's difficult to tolerate in any case! There is only a case for restricting others culture where it restricts our own. Does the veil restrict our culture? Certainly not significantly if at all, no, and banning the veil would undoubtedly do more harm than good. Also re the security issues of people wearing a veil? Seriously? :eyebrow:

By the same token anyone who thinks it is totally wrong of Straw to say he would prefer it if women didn't wear veils, also needs to see things from the other perspective and be a bit more tolerant.

3) I don't know whether to laugh or cry when people go on about how white middle England has been victimised by immigrants and other cultures. All because some issue somehow connected to race comes up. :o

Why are some people talking about us being a 'soft touch' on immigrants and asylum seekers? Not only is it irrelevant but it's the biggest pile of crap I've ever heard. We have an increasingly restrictive immigration policy and have more or less completely ignored international agreements and the UNHCR.

Affirmative action? What the fuck has that got to do with anything? Again another favourite topic of the racist, and totally irrellevant to the issue. Why do people say things like 'they come over here', and 'go home' when for some of the people who wear the veil this may well be the only country they've ever lived in? Sheer ignorance. Someone nick me a copy of The Daily Mail I need to take a dump on that fascist scum rag.



All in all it's more of the same crap, bitter disputes over relative non-issues, polarising people further still. Fucking bollocks to it all, sometimes I think we really do live in a stupid **** of a world. Then I slap on the porn and it's all ok. :crackoff:

[Hollowman]

Lots of folk in Africa dying due to Catholicism and the ban on the use of condoms for safe sex leading to AIDS being rife. That's just one instance without mentioning war


You honestly think that AIDS wouldn't have spread in Africa if the Vatican had said johnnies were alright? I think the Church's stance on rape is pretty unambiguous, and that hasn't stopped it becoming a cultural institution across the continent.

There are a few posts in this thread that appear to be confusing faith and religion. I see no problem with the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It's in organising those who feel the same that the problem lies. But man wouldn't need religion to kill himself. It's just a convenient excuse. We'd have just as easily found a different one in the absence of religion, and indeed have done on countless occasions.

[Bob]

I delegate misogynistic comment this post deserves to someone else.

There's not enough misogyny on these boards. Chris i can understand, but the rest...

[Red_Polo]

You honestly think that AIDS wouldn't have spread in Africa if the Vatican had said johnnies were alright? I think the Church's stance on rape is pretty unambiguous, and that hasn't stopped it becoming a cultural institution across the continent.

There are a few posts in this thread that appear to be confusing faith and religion. I see no problem with the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It's in organising those who feel the same that the problem lies. But man wouldn't need religion to kill himself. It's just a convenient excuse. We'd have just as easily found a different one in the absence of religion, and indeed have done on countless occasions.

We're all doomed, I tell you, doomed! :shake:

[Hollowman]

We're all doomed, I tell you, doomed! :shake:

Either that or we should all become Vikings or Serbs. They seem to think rape and pillage is a jolly. If you can't beat 'em...

[Snigger]

I wonder if the dinosaurs went through similar shit before they were wiped out - maybe the answer is to wipe out the human race and start again from apes......I mean Adam.

[Red_Polo]

Either that or we should all become Vikings or Serbs. They seem to think rape and pillage is a jolly. If you can't beat 'em...

...then it's no fun?

[Hollowman]

Tyrannosaurs were racist as fuck towards Diplodocus.
Waits for some sad **** to go on about Jurassic vs Cretaceous periods.

[Mumsafan]

You honestly think that AIDS wouldn't have spread in Africa if the Vatican had said johnnies were alright? I think the Church's stance on rape is pretty unambiguous, and that hasn't stopped it becoming a cultural institution across the continent.

There are a few posts in this thread that appear to be confusing faith and religion. I see no problem with the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It's in organising those who feel the same that the problem lies. But man wouldn't need religion to kill himself. It's just a convenient excuse. We'd have just as easily found a different one in the absence of religion, and indeed have done on countless occasions.

The post was a comment to get Matt going. I see it worked for you too :D

[der_Fuchs]

:handshake: blackboards are now chalkboards, black pudding is savoury pudding its going bananas. Can I even say bananas???
I've only just discovered that black coffee is now called Americano coffee.....but its much darker than Latin American skin colouring, so shouldn't it be called African-American coffee?

[Hollowman]

The post was a comment to get Matt going. I see it worked for you too :D


Racist.

[Mumsafan]

Racist.

:eyebrow:

[Hollowman]

:eyebrow:


Browist.

[Mumsafan]

Browist.


I've met Mike. Do you blame me?

[Snigger]

I've met Mike. Do you blame me?


not at all

[Shaggy]

Just seen on the local news that a Muslim woman in full burkha was attacked at a bus stop in Liverpool this morning by an elderly female OAP after a dispute regarding the veil "got out of hand". Oh dear.

[Mumsafan]

Just seen on the local news that a Muslim woman in full burkha was attacked at a bus stop in Liverpool this morning by an elderly female OAP after a dispute regarding the veil "got out of hand". Oh dear.


I thought all OAPs were elderly! :haha:

[Shaggy]

I thought all OAPs were elderly! :haha:

:o

The first couple of spliffs after work always go straight to my head.

[der_Fuchs]

I wonder what Straw would say if Kendo Nagasaki turned up for a meeting?
Interesting point. Knowing his own physical limitations and also that Kendo won't remove his mask unless defeated, I would expect Straw to stick to something fairly neutral, such as, 'Can I rely on your vote, Mr Nagasaki?'

[Bob]

:o

The first couple of spliffs after work always go straight to my head.
:D

The keenness of youth.

[Hollowman]

Or he'll use guile and chicanery. Pull the padding off the turnbuckle or some other underhand tactic to incapacitate Kendo and remove the mask.

Or just hold a tennis racket in front of his own face to be on an equal footing.

[Shaggy]

:D

The keenness of youth.

Youth?!?!?

[Red_Polo]

Or just hold a tennis racket in front of his own face to be on an equal footing.

:haha:

[Red_hot]

You honestly think that AIDS wouldn't have spread in Africa if the Vatican had said johnnies were alright? I think the Church's stance on rape is pretty unambiguous, and that hasn't stopped it becoming a cultural institution across the continent.

There are a few posts in this thread that appear to be confusing faith and religion. I see no problem with the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It's in organising those who feel the same that the problem lies. But man wouldn't need religion to kill himself. It's just a convenient excuse. We'd have just as easily found a different one in the absence of religion, and indeed have done on countless occasions.

:handshake:

[Mumsafan]

:handshake:


Got another one :haha:

[der_Fuchs]

Or he'll use guile and chicanery. Pull the padding off the turnbuckle or some other underhand tactic to incapacitate Kendo and remove the mask.

Or just hold a tennis racket in front of his own face to be on an equal footing.
Diabolically clever, but a man of integrity like Kendo Nagasaki would never vote for him after a low trick like that.

[Ketario]

Irresponsible timing on behalf of Straw, very disappointed in him.

[Neil Young]

Irresponsible timing on behalf of Straw, very disappointed in him.

Do you think it was an accident or just stupidity or do you think it has anything to do with the fact that that senior Labour Party figures are all jostling for position in the run-up to a leadership contest/new leader taking over?

If it was the latter I can't see what he was hoping to achieve. Can anyone?

[Ketario]

The latter - hence the irresponsible timing comment. Self serving comment with little regard of the implications.

[Ketario]

Sorry, I meant consequences, not implications.

[Ketario]

Apologies again, forgot I could edit posts!

[Neil Young]

I'm tempted to agree with you but I couldn't see what he thought he would achieve. I had thought it a typically misjudged attempt at populism but the only way I can understand is if I lower my opinion of Straw, something I hadn't thought possible. He's a careerist politician - always has been, always will be. Now however we can see that he is only interested in his own career and, you're right, he doesn't give a damn about the consequences as long as it serves his own personal interest.

He screwed up with his courting of Condoleeza Rice, he then followed it up with his less than fulsome praise of US foreign policy resulting in his being sacked by Blair (a useful way of distancing himself from the 'ancien regime') and now here he is reinventing himself as "Union Jack" Straw, man of the people, protector of British culture.

A nasty piece of work. How many people on here have swallowed his bullshit?

[Tom]

A nasty piece of work. How many people on here have swallowed his bullshit?


Plenty it seems. A dangerous rabble rouser is Jack Straw. Much evidence on here of unleashed, unpleasant and dangerous facist sentiment.

Cable street anyone?

[Hollowman]

I think Tom and Neil should lead an enlightened revolution.

[Anfield Mole]

Plenty it seems. A dangerous rabble rouser is Jack Straw. Much evidence on here of unleashed, unpleasant and dangerous facist sentiment.

Cable street anyone?


Have you bothered to read the article in the Lancashire Evening Telegraph that has sparked all of this?

Please read the article below before commenting further.
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/blog/index.var.488.0.i_want_to_unveil_my_views_on_an_im portant_issue.php

Jack Straw is as much a dangerous rabble rouser as I am a Toffee.

[paulcooper4]

Jack Straw is the piece of shit who promised a proper and fair enquiry into hillsborough if labour got voted in. I personally would like to rip the lying shits bollocks off and shove them down his throat

[Ketario]

Jack Straw is the piece of shit who promised a proper and fair enquiry into hillsborough if labour got voted in. I personally would like to rip the lying shits bollocks off and shove them down his throat

I'm sensing anger but, as always, stand to be corrected.

[Red_hot]

Flmao

[paulcooper4]

I'm sensing anger but, as always, stand to be corrected.
:handshake:

[Guest]

Should i kickstart this thread now ? :rolleyes:

[Red_Polo]

Should i kickstart this thread now ? :rolleyes:

I'd rather you just told me which PJ Live album is best tbh :D

[Guest]

I'd rather you just told me which PJ Live album is best tbh :D

:D

Live at Benaroya Hall. :rock:

[Red_hot]

:handshake:

Correct him!!!!! :miffed:

[Red_Polo]

:D

Live at Benaroya Hall. :rock:

Damn, should've asked before I actually got one. Well I'll have to make do with Live on Two Legs for a while :handshake:

[Guest]

Damn, should've asked before I actually got one. Well I'll have to make do with Live on Two Legs for a while :handshake:

Live on 2 Legs is actually very good. :handshake:

[Ketario]

Correct him!!!!! :miffed:

:miffed:

[Red_Polo]

Live on 2 Legs is actually very good. :handshake:

Yep. Enjoying it. :rock:

[Guest]

Yep. Enjoying it. :rock:

Have you listened to Lost Dogs ? It's a collection of some of their B-sides and some 'trashed' songs from their previous albums.

Sorry for the thread hijacking. :p

[Red_Polo]

Have you listened to Lost Dogs ? It's a collection of some of their B-sides and some 'trashed' songs from their previous albums.

Sorry for the thread hijacking. :p

Tbh I haven't had enough play out of the album tracks to delve into that yet, but I will do at some point.