FLMAO@America spreading democracy

[Abdul Alhazred]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cuba/story/0,,1948445,00.html

Cuban dissidents who were given millions of dollars by the US government to support democracy in their homeland instead blew money on computer games, cashmere sweaters, crabmeat and expensive chocolates, which were then sent to the island.

A scathing congressional audit of democracy-assistance programmes found “questionable expenditure” by several groups funded by Washington in opposition to President Fidel Castro’s rule on the communist Caribbean island.

The Miami-based Acción Democrática Cubana spent money on a chainsaw, Nintendo Game Boys and Sony PlayStations, mountain bikes, leather coats and Godiva chocolates, which the group says were all sent to Cuba. “These people are going hungry. They never get any chocolate there,” Juan Carlos Acosta, the group’s executive director, told the Miami Herald.

He also defended the purchase of a chainsaw he said he needed to cut a tree that had blocked access to his office in a hurricane, and said that the leather jackets and cashmere sweaters were bought in a sale. “They [the auditors] think it’s not cold there,” Mr Acosta said. “At $30 [£16] it’s a bargain because cashmere is expensive. They were asking for sweaters.”

The audit analysed $65m of spending by the US Agency for International Development (USAID) from 1996 to 2005 and concluded that poor management was to blame for the waste. “There were weaknesses in agency policies and in programme office oversight, and internal control deficiencies,” the report states.

None of the 36 groups that received money were identified in the report, but others admitted to the Miami Herald in advance of its publication today that they had been investigated.

Frank Hernandez Trujillo, executive director of Grupo De Apoyo a la Democracia (Group for the Support of Democracy), said his organisation received more than $7m from USAID, a programme that has formed a central piece of President George Bush’s policy on Cuba.

“I’ll defend that until I die,” Mr Hernandez Trujillo said of his decision to spend part of his group’s allocation on boxes of computer games. “That’s part of our job, to show the people in Cuba what they could attain if they were not under that system.”

Most of the items were distributed to dissidents in Cuba by US diplomats in Havana, who were sometimes unaware what was in the shipments.

David Snider, a spokesman for USAID, said he was awaiting a final copy of the report, but admitted that an investigation was under way into three cases highlighted by the audit.

The US government has previously accused the Cuban government of hijacking consignments sent to its Havana mission.

To paraphrase Uncle George:

"Freedom is the freedom to own a games console. When that is granted, all else follows"

[JRG]

Total idiots - they deserve each other

[Spionkop69]

So how do the opposites of the US spread democracy?

Please tell, because I'd like to flmao at them as well. You've no axe to grind with the USA obviously.

[Hollowman]

Point being that the US claims to be a democracy, where as Iran and Syria...not so much.

[Spionkop69]

Point being that the US claims to be a democracy, where as Iran and Syria...not so much.

My point being that I'm fed of people knocking the US when the opposite sides of the coin are no better.

The US may "claim" to be a democracy but I'd rather live there than in your two examples. I'm sure there are others who think different.

[Red_Polo]

My point being that I'm fed of people knocking the US when the opposite sides of the coin are no better.

The US may "claim" to be a democracy but I'd rather live there than in your two examples. I'm sure there are others who think different.

So they're beyond criticism?

The US is being judged on it's own merits.

[carheex]

My point being that I'm fed of people knocking the US when the opposite sides of the coin are no better.

The US may "claim" to be a democracy but I'd rather live there than in your two examples. I'm sure there are others who think different.


Well said. Unfortunately, it's very "trendy" to criticise the US at the moment but the majority of comments you hear are by people who really aren't politically in the know, and are never likely to be. Everyday I hear some student or do-gooder spouting shite about america as if they've formed their own opinions based on research. the reality is that they've heard someone else say it and are jumping on the bandwagon. Rather sad really, but there you go.

[Spionkop69]

So they're beyond criticism?

The US is being judged on it's own merits.

That's not what I said - that's a journo like twist RP! I just got the impression the original poster had an axe to grind and has done it. There are plenty of things to criticise about the US and equally plenty to criticise of its rivals.

I would suggest the original poster (from his userid) is Islamic. Islamic countries are reknowned for their lack of democracy as well - and whether they make no pretence to be democratic is beside the point. Its a glass houses and stones moment IMHO of course.

[Red_Polo]

That's not what I said - that's a journo like twist RP! I just got the impression the original poster had an axe to grind and has done it. There are plenty of things to criticise about the US and equally plenty to criticise of its rivals.

I would suggest the original poster (from his userid) is Islamic. Islamic countries are reknowned for their lack of democracy as well - and whether they make no pretence to be democratic is beside the point. Its a glass houses and stones moment IMHO of course.

I don't think it's a journo like twist at all. You seemed to be suggesting the US shouldn't be criticised whilst there are worse countries out there. I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable that the US should be judged by it's own criteria.

As for the second paragraph, what a pile of shite. You assume the poster is Muslim, then you take that assumption and beat him with it by effectively saying 'all your Muslim countries are way worse so stfu', which is seriously lame. Glass houses and stones? So just because he might be Muslim you think he loses all right to criticise the US out of some ridiculous prejudice which suggests any Muslim fully supports the actions of Muslim countries? :shake:

[PeachSalsa]

Why don't we just have a I hate America thread. Or I hate Americans. Or I hate American politics. Or...just fuck America thread and get it over with.

[Abdul Alhazred]

So how do the opposites of the US spread democracy?

Please tell, because I'd like to flmao at them as well. You've no axe to grind with the USA obviously.

:chill:

No axe to grind at all, just found it extremely funny. You know, laughter. Best medicine and all that.

:handshake:

[Abdul Alhazred]

I would suggest the original poster (from his userid) is Islamic. Islamic countries are reknowned for their lack of democracy as well - and whether they make no pretence to be democratic is beside the point. Its a glass houses and stones moment IMHO of course.


wets self

I'm as Islamic as a ham bagel.

My username is Arabic.*

















* actually it's a Nazi-sympathising horror writer's atempt at an authentic Arab name

[Spionkop69]

I don't think it's a journo like twist at all. You seemed to be suggesting the US shouldn't be criticised whilst there are worse countries out there. I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable that the US should be judged by it's own criteria.

As for the second paragraph, what a pile of shite. You assume the poster is Muslim, then you take that assumption and beat him with it by effectively saying 'all your Muslim countries are way worse so stfu', which is seriously lame. Glass houses and stones? So just because he might be Muslim you think he loses all right to criticise the US out of some ridiculous prejudice which suggests any Muslim fully supports the actions of Muslim countries? :shake:

A pile of shite in your opinion RP?:handshake:

I didn't say he had no right to criticise the US. I'm no fan of the US or its politics but it irks me when the it appears (and the orginal poster has corrected me!) that someone with an axe to grind posts anti-US stuff.

I understand your perception of what you think I was saying but that wasn't the way it was meant to come across - equally the same way as I took my perception of the original poster was wrong.

Anyone can criticise anyone in my world, but pretty much everyone nowadays is on thin ice when criticising one nation when coming from another. The moral high ground is no longer a safe place to sit, wherever you come from.:handshake:

I suppose the moral of the story, from my perspective, is that every country is as bad as one another - except the Swiss of course as they remain neutral counting their Nazi gold:finger:

[Neil Young]

A pile of shite in your opinion RP?:handshake:

I didn't say he had no right to criticise the US. I'm no fan of the US or its politics but it irks me when the it appears (and the orginal poster has corrected me!) that someone with an axe to grind posts anti-US stuff.

I understand your perception of what you think I was saying but that wasn't the way it was meant to come across - equally the same way as I took my perception of the original poster was wrong.

Anyone can criticise anyone in my world, but pretty much everyone nowadays is on thin ice when criticising one nation when coming from another. The moral high ground is no longer a safe place to sit, wherever you come from.:handshake:

I suppose the moral of the story, from my perspective, is that every country is as bad as one another - except the Swiss of course as they remain neutral counting their Nazi gold:finger:
The moral high ground certainly isn't a safe place to sit which is why America (and Britain among others) shouldn't be so quick to claim it as cover for their ill-judged foreign policy.

[Red_Polo]

A pile of shite in your opinion RP?:handshake:

I didn't say he had no right to criticise the US. I'm no fan of the US or its politics but it irks me when the it appears (and the orginal poster has corrected me!) that someone with an axe to grind posts anti-US stuff.

I understand your perception of what you think I was saying but that wasn't the way it was meant to come across - equally the same way as I took my perception of the original poster was wrong.

Anyone can criticise anyone in my world, but pretty much everyone nowadays is on thin ice when criticising one nation when coming from another. The moral high ground is no longer a safe place to sit, wherever you come from.:handshake:

I suppose the moral of the story, from my perspective, is that every country is as bad as one another - except the Swiss of course as they remain neutral counting their Nazi gold:finger:

I think the moral of the story is you should act on rational analysis of fact rather than personal preconceptions and presumptions. :D

I am interested to know what 'axe to grind' you think people on this forum have other than the unveiling of truth, and a bit of humour.

'Anyone can criticise anyone in my world, but pretty much everyone nowadays is on thin ice when criticising one nation when coming from another.'

I don't see why. Coming from a country does not mean condoning or agreeing with all that country's acts. Nor does one country's wrongs excuse anothers.

[Nicey]

I am staying well clear of this thread ... : )

[Red_Polo]

Come on Nicey get involved mate :D

'Open your eyes and your mind will follow'....is that the one? :rock:

[hertsred]

It seems to me that America needs to be challenged to live up to the high standards it claims to represent, and often does represent. From the sometimes comical attempts by the CIA to overthrow Fidel, to the 'renditions' for torture of terrorism suspects (often on only the flimsiest evidence) to multiple coups, America has caused a lot of death, misery and suffering.

However, the US also sets a very high standard of ideal behaviour in terms of democracy, free speech, welcoming of refugees etc If it sometimes, even often, fails to meet that high standard, then criticism is deserved. But credit is also due for the attempt.

Many other countries have much worse records on the same score, on the other hand they claim less. So they deserve criticism for their poor records on human rights etc too, and also need pressure to improve the standard by which they wish to be judged.

The UK doesn't have a spotless record. We deserve a lot of criticism too.

So why does the US attract so much criticism from across the world. Obviously because as the world's only superpower it does a lot of bad stuff and when it screws up, it does so royally - Iraq springs to mind.

It is possible to like America and Americans, and hate American foreign policy, especially under Bush. I am married to an American who does just that. And that's where I fall too. I don't hate Americans, but I have made a career analysing and criticising their foreign and military policies.

Just shouting someone down everyone they criticize the US seems immature, so does knee-jerk American-bashing. Any serious debate should be more nuanced.