The wingers question...

[Johnny]

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the quality of player in the box was better at the end of Beckham's crosses than at the end of Pennant's. I have and I am convinced that therein lies the problem. A cross from deep is every bit as dangerous as a cross from the byline if you have capable bodies in the box to attack.

[keniget]

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the quality of player in the box was better at the end of Beckham's crosses than at the end of Pennant's. I have and I am convinced that therein lies the problem. A cross from deep is every bit as dangerous as a cross from the byline if you have capable bodies in the box to attack.

There is a point in that, as Crouch is horrendous in the air and both Kuyt and Bellamy have been guilty of missing chances this season. However, without the need for stats or debate, we've seen often enough that the quality of Pennants crossing has not quite been good enough. Finnan on the other hand... is very consistant at delivering quality balls into the box.

Problems with our relying on this approach?

1) The defence always know what's coming. It's predictable and there is no alternative route.

2) We often don't get enough players into the box. You can put in brilliant cross after brilliant cross, but if it's always gonna be a 1 vs 4 situation, you're going to find it very hard to score.

[keniget]

I`d agree with Garcia staying if he didn`t give the ball away so much.All other aspects of his game are fine/great.

He scores goals and makes thing happen. I wouldn't necessarily look to start him, but having a player that can come off the bench and do what he does is invaluable. We simply can't afford to get rid of any player that has a knack for scoring.

[Neil Young]

Yeah, that was rude. I withdraw the comment.

[Craig_H]

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the quality of player in the box was better at the end of Beckham's crosses than at the end of Pennant's. I have and I am convinced that therein lies the problem. A cross from deep is every bit as dangerous as a cross from the byline if you have capable bodies in the box to attack.

Another problem is that we dont have enough bodies in the box full stop, whether they're great in the air or not.

But i've been going on about bodies in the box for ages and that's another thread.

[Johnny]

There is a point in that, as Crouch is horrendous in the air and both Kuyt and Bellamy have been guilty of missing chances this season. However, without the need for stats or debate, we've seen often enough that the quality of Pennants crossing has not quite been good enough. Finnan on the other hand... is very consistant at delivering quality balls into the box.

Problems with our relying on this approach?

1) The defence always know what's coming. It's predictable and there is no alternative route.

2) We often don't get enough players into the box. You can put in brilliant cross after brilliant cross, but if it's always gonna be a 1 vs 4 situation, you're going to find it very hard to score.

We seem to play 4-4-1-1 with Kuyt behind Bellers or Crouch instead of 4-4-2 with Kuyt beside Bellers/Crouch which limits our chances if the ball is crossed in early.

[keniget]

We seem to play 4-4-1-1 with Kuyt behind Bellers or Crouch instead of 4-4-2 with Kuyt beside Bellers/Crouch which limits our chances if the ball is crossed in early.

Well tactics or no tactics, the natural game of both Bellamy and Kuyt seems to be to pull out wide, drop deep and so forth. Kuyt is particularly "guilty" of this. Hence the desperate need to buy a goalscorer, someone who will stay in the box, but yeah, we all know that.

When we play the likes of Pennant, Riise, Aurelio out on the wings, then we'll only really ever have one or two players in goalscoring positions. Not really good enough.

[Jack D Rips]

Another problem is that we dont have enough bodies in the box full stop, whether they're great in the air or not.

But i've been going on about bodies in the box for ages and that's another thread.

I totally agree with you. Ken says above that Finnan is a better crosser of the ball than Pennant. But how many scores do we get from his crosses?

Its all about numbers and quality in the box. If Drogba played for us we would have a 20 goal a season striker on our books and it wouldnt matter if the crosses were from the edge of the box or the byline.

Many years ago I was a right winger (obviously at a much lower level, but everythings relative), and I can assure you that an early cross has a better chance of catching a defender out than one from the byline.

[Craig_H]

Many years ago I was a right winger (obviously at a much lower level, but everythings relative), and I can assure you that an early cross has a better chance of catching a defender out than one from the byline.

Dont agree personally. When the ball's in the 'Finnan' position, defenders are set in their positions and ready & waiting to deal with it.

When you get to the byline at pace, the defenders will often be running back and facing their own goal, they'll have been dragged out of position and their organised unit will be less organised.

As with lots of things in football, when you make people do things quickly, they're more prone to getting it wrong.

[keniget]

Assists in all comps:

Pennant - 7 (3 in EPL)
Finnan - 6 (4 in EPL)

I don't really understand why there is a debate anyways. No one is saying that you should never cross early or deep, but you should have options at your disposal. Currently, we're somewhat lacking in the "rape the fullback and tear their defence open" option

[Jack D Rips]

Dont agree personally. When the ball's in the 'Finnan' position, defenders are set in their positions and ready & waiting to deal with it.

When you get to the byline at pace, the defenders will often be running back and facing their own goal, they'll have been dragged out of position and their organised unit will be less organised.

As with lots of things in football, when you make people do things quickly, they're more prone to getting it wrong.

Exactly. And thats my very point. I'm not talking about dilly dallying around the edge of the box and then scooping it over. I'm talking of doing ist quickly and with pace a la Beckham. Invariably that will catch defenders on the back foot.

[willa1975]

I think that, plain and simple, we need our wingers to be better, or we need to buy better wingers. The only player who got out wide and made United worry at all yesterday was Bellamy. Sure, we can lament not having a goalscoring machine up front, but poor wing play can hurt us just as much.

I think wing play has been the biggest difference between us and United this year. We've only allowed one more goal than they have, and Rooney and Saha have only combined for two more goals than Kuyt and Bellamy. And, when it comes to CM, I'd take Gerrard/Alonso/Sissoko (and now Mascherano) over Scholes/Carrick/Fletcher any day. But, there's a massive difference between Giggs/Ronaldo and Gonzalez/Pennant.

Moreover, you can make a strong argument that the quality of Chelsea's wing play had a big part in their two championship seasons, neither of which featured a prolific striker.

We just haven't got anyone out wide who makes opposing defenders worry, we've got nobody who can consistently take on defenders, and this makes their job easy. I don't care who's crossing the ball, we're not going to accomplish much crossing it from deep--we've certainly done it enough times this season without getting the desired result.

Having a winger who can beat a man would create a lot more chances for us--I absolutely agree with Keniget about defenses becoming less organized when a winger gets to the byline. When balls are crossed in from deep, they just aren't very dangerous unless someone's gotten behind the defense, and the likes of Kuyt and Crouch don't have the pace or the tendency to play far enough up the pitch to get behind the defense on a regular basis.

Any team with defenders in the box shouldn't have any problem defending against a cross put in from 30-40 yards out--their line should still be organized and facing forward, allowing them to see where both the opposing attackers and the ball are going.

But, when someone gets to the byline, things become a lot more difficult for the defense. For one thing, defenders have now got to turn and face their own goal, and take their eyes off opposing attackers. Furthermore, they've now got to break their shape in order to tend to the player who's gotten free of his marker, opening up space for another player to run into. And, while the likes of Crouch and Kuyt aren't blessed with blistering pace or terrifying aerial abilities, they are clever enough to get into space when it opens up.

It also wouldn't have hurt to have had a decent RW in yesterday's game, so that we didn't have to depend on Momo to play the attacking CM role. Nothing against Momo, but he's just not cut out for it. I think we would have at least managed a couple more chances had Stevie gotten the ball in some of the positions Momo found himself in yesterday.

It's been a frustrating year, although a good result on Tuesday would make me feel much better. As long as we stay in the top 4...well done Rovers.

[Craig_H]

Assists in all comps:

Pennant - 7 (3 in EPL)
Finnan - 6 (4 in EPL)

I don't really understand why there is a debate anyways. No one is saying that you should never cross early or deep, but you should have options at your disposal. Currently, we're somewhat lacking in the "rape the fullback and tear their defence open" option

NAIL ON THE FECKING HEAD.

[bazza76]

Another problem is that we dont have enough bodies in the box full stop, whether they're great in the air or not.

But i've been going on about bodies in the box for ages and that's another thread.

So you think Rafa should abandon everything that has made him the successfull manager that he is and just commit more boies into the box to suit you, because you could do the job better?.

[Craig_H]

[/B]

Exactly. And thats my very point. I'm not talking about dilly dallying around the edge of the box and then scooping it over. I'm talking of doing ist quickly and with pace a la Beckham. Invariably that will catch defenders on the back foot.

You wouldnt agree though, that dealing with a low, fast cross from the byline, while racing back and facing your own goal, is as dangerous a cross as you'd probably have to deal with?