21 points

[Guest]

Been looking at the Premiership table this morning and we are currently 27 points off the relegation zone and 21 points off from the top ! We should have been at least 18 points better than what we have right now ... It's incredible how much points have been lost when we should have won or to a lesser extent drawn some games.

I've drawn up a list of these games:

Chelsea 0-1 - Dominated possession and created 3 clear cut chances and lost (3 pts)
Bolton 0-2 - Lost because of a bad ref decision and again couldn't convert our chances (3 pts)
Blackburn 1-1 - Again dominated and should have won (2 pts)
Boro 0-0 - Same as above (2 pts)
Pompey 0-0 - Same old story (2 pts)
Blackburn 0-1 - A travesty we didn't win this game (3 pts)
Newcastle 1-2 - Again should have buried them (3 pts)
United 0-1 - Should have won easily (3 pts)
Aston Villa 0-0 - Poor game had plenty of possession and weren't at the races (2 pts)

All in all 23 points lost and I take into account the fact that some would disagree with some of the matches I selected. It's a travesty we are 21 points behind United after finishing 1 point off them last term. These are 9 games when IMO we should have won them all.

[WILF]

I don't think blaming bad refereeing is valid, it happens to all clubs

So what are the reasons for dropping these points?

Obviously in some matches poor finishing has let us down, we could have taken the lead had our strikers/attacking players been more clinical.

Rafa's tactics/team selections, I feel we are sometimes set up too defensively away from home against teams we should beat.

In some matches, Utd away, Villa, Pompey fro example we just looked so disinterested and didn't play at all.

Solutions

Buy some new strikers/attacking players and hope that /Crouch/Kuyt/Bellamy/Pennant/Gonzo/Kewell/Garcia (depending on who is still at the club next season) produce more, and more consistently than this season.

Rafa still has to learn about winning away from home in the Prem. Just compare our home and away form over the last 3 years compared to Chelsea/Utd.
But will Rafa change and look at dominating the opposition away from home instead of worrying about their strengths?

The players attitude problem I really don't understand. The Utd away game especially was totally perplexing, a massive fixture in which every player should be really fired up, and yet we showed no fight at all, why ???

I agree that we "should" be closer to the top, but remember, the table never lies

[desertscouser]

Fredo, every team would say the same. 'We should be x points better off because we should've beaten team x'. I couldn't be arsed to cast my mind back, but are there other games that we may have won where we didn't deserve to? Probably

Imo we are where we are because that's where we deserve to be. Overall this season domestically we've been very poor. Our football has been crap and the only highlight has been our CL run.

[Guest]

Fredo, every team would say the same. 'We should be x points better off because we should've beaten team x'. I couldn't be arsed to cast my mind back, but are there other games that we may have won where we didn't deserve to? Probably

Imo we are where we are because that's where we deserve to be. Overall this season domestically we've been very poor. Our football has been crap and the only highlight has been our CL run.

I agree that we've been poor but my point was even though being 'poor' these games listed in my post, should have been won because we were the better team on the day ... Poor as we may have been.

There's a fine line between success and failure and we still haven't been able to bridge that gap since the Houllier years (It was one of his favorite quotes ). As WILF pointed out, we should be more dominant away from home and try to replicate our home form away. By being more positive and playing at a higher tempo, we would create far more chances and even if we can't take all of them, we should at least be good enough to win them most.

That's what stand Manure apart imo. We aren't inferior quality wise or offensively wise, but we need a better mentality away from home.

[desertscouser]

Fredo, United are FAR FAR better than us offensively. To say any different is delusional.

They have Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs, Scholes and Saha, we have...erm Gerrard.

[Biff]

The teams who are above us are above us because over the course of the season their 'top' players have been on fire and delivered......

We can't say the same.

[Guest]

Fredo, United are FAR FAR better than us offensively. To say any different is delusional.

They have Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs, Scholes and Saha, we have...erm Gerrard.

How come we finished one points off them last season ? Fluke ? They are probably better because their attacking players have delivered this season and ours haven't. We had to bed in Pennant, Gonzales, Bellers etc ... By the time we started to play, United were out of sight.

United are on a roll because of their confidence etc ... blah blah.

'FAR FAR better' is the delusional part really mate.

[desertscouser]

How come we finished one points off them last season ? Fluke ? They are probably better because their attacking players have delivered this season and ours haven't. We had to bed in Pennant, Gonzales, Bellers etc ... By the time we started to play, United were out of sight.

United are on a roll because of their confidence etc ... blah blah.

'FAR FAR better' is the delusional part really mate.

Fredo, honestly, you are a fanatasist.

Rooney, Saha, Ronaldo, Giggs and Scholes would walk into our side. How can you mention Bellamy and Pennant in the same breathe as Ronaldo and Rooney? They're leagues apart.

We finished 1 point behind them last season because we scored our HIGHEST premiership points tally due almost entirely to Gerrard's goals and the fact we had the second best DEFENSIVE record in the country. We are talking about who is the better offensive side and that is United...last season they scored 15 goals more than us.

This season they have already scored 26 goals more than us. Therefore, OFFENSIVELY, they are embarrassingly better than us.

I rest my case.

[Cleo]

Fredo, every team would say the same. 'We should be x points better off because we should've beaten team x'. I couldn't be arsed to cast my mind back, but are there other games that we may have won where we didn't deserve to? Probably

Imo we are where we are because that's where we deserve to be. Overall this season domestically we've been very poor. Our football has been crap and the only highlight has been our CL run.

Man Utd haven't dropped too many points but even their fans will probably point to the Arsenal away game and say that they had deserved three points there.
The same goes for all teams so we just have to face the facts - we haven't been good enough!

The main problem for me is that we haven't had one player who on a regular basis has been able to take on a defender and actually get past him - we are dependent on crosses (most of them delivered from a bad position) or have had to pass the ball all the way over the line (away to West Ham and Watford we produced marvellous goals that way but off course that's not gonna work in every game)

[Guest]

Fredo, honestly, you are a fanatasist.

Fantasist or fanatic ? Please don't do a DJS on me.

Rooney was ****e this season, so he should not be bracketed in the same breathe as the others. Gonzales and Pennant are still adapting to their surroundings whereas United had the more settled side. Pennant has shown that he's capable in glimpses this season and we should give him more time.

Crouch was dubbed not good enough, and I've seen some in here eat their words already.

I don't despise the fact that United are better than us this season, but you can't throw statistics at them being better than us because they have the best attacking force ... We had other strengths and still can't be 21 points poorer than them ! (Even if the points show a different reality)

I said in a thread yesterday how magnificent United were during their second half against Blackburn, because they showed composure and continued their attacking when some other teams would have lost their nerve. They play to their strengths and they are far more clinical than us. That's the difference.

I also rest my case.

[desertscouser]

Man Utd haven't dropped too many points but even their fans will probably point to the Arsenal away game and say that they had deserved three points there.
The same goes for all teams so we just have to face the facts - we haven't been good enough!

The main problem for me is that we haven't had one player who on a regular basis has been able to take on a defender and actually get past him - we are dependent on crosses (most of them delivered from a bad position) or have had to pass the ball all the way over the line (away to West Ham and Watford we produced marvellous goals that way but off course that's not gonna work in every game)

Absolutely.

On top of that, our inability to create clear goalscoring chances in the final third mean that we have to resort to taking long shots at goal or from crap angles hence why people go on about us having the most shots on target (Houllier's favourite stat).

[Guest]

Man Utd haven't dropped too many points but even their fans will probably point to the Arsenal away game and say that they had deserved three points there.
The same goes for all teams so we just have to face the facts - we haven't been good enough!

The main problem for me is that we haven't had one player who on a regular basis has been able to take on a defender and actually get past him - we are dependent on crosses (most of them delivered from a bad position) or have had to pass the ball all the way over the line (away to West Ham and Watford we produced marvellous goals that way but off course that's not gonna work in every game)

Many of our 'main attacking' players were either bedding in or were out of form at the start of the season, so that could explain why we're so far off. Rafa hopefully won't do the same mistakes three times in a row.

[desertscouser]

Fantasist or fanatic ? Please don't do a DJS on me.

Rooney was ****e this season, so he should not be bracketed in the same breathe as the others. Gonzales and Pennant are still adapting to their surroundings whereas United had the more settled side. Pennant has shown that he's capable in glimpses this season and we should give him more time.

Crouch was dubbed not good enough, and I've seen some in here eat their words already.

I don't despise the fact that United are better than us this season, but you can't throw statistics at them being better than us because they have the best attacking force ... We had other strengths and still can't be 21 points poorer than them ! (Even if the points show a different reality)

I said in a thread yesterday how magnificent United were during their second half against Blackburn, because they showed composure and continued their attacking when some other teams would have lost their nerve. They play to their strengths and they are far more clinical than us. That's the difference.

I also rest my case.

Fredo, you're case has just been thrown out of court.

There's nothing to argue here. Rooney and Saha are better than any of our strikers. Ronaldo and Giggs are better than any of our wingers. United were a better attacking side than we were last season and they're MUCH better than us this season.

Now stop arguing me so I can stop sticking up for United and their players. It's making me feel very dirty.

[Guest]

Fredo, you're case has just been thrown out of court.

There's nothing to argue here. Rooney and Saha are better than any of our strikers. Ronaldo and Giggs are better than any of our wingers. United were a better attacking side than we were last season and they're MUCH better than us this season.

Now stop arguing me so I can stop sticking up for United and their players. It's making me feel very dirty.

Yes they were better than us.

But I still can't accept they are 21 points better off.

[desertscouser]

Yes they were better than us.

But I still can't accept they are 21 points better off.

Out of court settlement.

I agree with you, they're not 21 points better than us.