the digler

[smither]

another point could be if we didnt sign kuyt last season then who could we have signed in his place that would've been better than him? granted berbatov had a good season, but he was as much a risky buy as kuyt was. i'd definately take dirk over defoe, bent and the like

[RedReet]

To be fair to him though, he did rattle the bar and went close with a volley after The Crow laid a ball for him. He just went awry and dropped deeper and deeper as the game wore on.

It was a very disjointed performance from the team last night. Not seen anything of note apart the fact that Stevie is very sharp, to make me think we're addressing issues we had last year away from home.

To be really fair, it was a great goal and an excellent finish, just the linesman missed it. He just needs a bit of luck Dirk. I think I read he hit the woodwork eight times last season, which if even half rebounded in would have given him a decent goals tally for the season.

[Neil Young]

He didn't score a goal, however you want to dress it up.

It's all well and good you and dww saying "ooh I wish you'd all stop having a go at poor hard working Dirk" - but why don't you explain why we're wrong?

Responding by saying "well The Guardian said he had a good game so THERE!" is a rubbish response.

OK, well I look forward to your posts about all the other players who didn't score a goal either.

My point about The Guardian is to illustrate that it was possible to see things in quite another way. I wasn't saying "so there" and I wasn't trying to trump your argument. However, I was trying to suggest that a more open-minded approach might be useful.

He did score - why do you keep omitting that?

[dww]

It's valid criticism.

Some of it. But criticising people for preseason performances just seems a little bit pointless to me. In a few weeks if people have under performed or the team is doing badly then fair enough. I'm just a bit dismayed that people are so down on seemingly the entire squad.

Did Kuyt score more than 23 goals last season for us?? Last time I looked it was 13 in all comps...

Also, Berbatov had 16 assists in all comps where Kuyt had 4.

Arguable playing in the UEFA cup as opposed to the CL may have given him the edge in those stats. The fairest barometer is in the same competition, where despite playing deeper Kuyt scored more at a slightly better (although in real terms all but identical but I'm making a point so forgive me) goal/minute rate.

Kuyt is not a goal threat like Dogbreath, Van Persie, Shrek and Berbatov, and that is where the problem lies, does he worry/occupy a centre back when he's grafting for the team in the midfield? If he's occupying and pulling the centre backs all over the place this makes space for the like of Gerrard, Babel, Kewell etc to run in to.

None of our attacking midfielders tend to make the runs that would exploit the space any way. I think Kuyt actually does a decent job of moving around defenders and if Torres plays of him in a more natural way to Gerrard does when played their then I think the partnership will be very effective.

[Shaggy]

OK, well I look forward to your posts about all the other players who didn't score a goal either.

No need to be facetious.

I see no counter-argument. No justification for the time he spends outside the box.

He didn't score yesterday - look in the paper. That said, that's barely relevant. I'm more concerned about the grand scheme of things and his inability to scare opposition defences.

[dww]

He didn't score a goal, however you want to dress it up.

It's all well and good you and dww saying "ooh I wish you'd all stop having a go at poor hard working Dirk" - but why don't you explain why we're wrong?

Responding by saying "well The Guardian said he had a good game so THERE!" is a rubbish response.

He has a goals/minute ratio comparable to Rooney and Berbatov who seem to be players other people would like in our team (in fact it is better than Berbatov and worse than Rooney but both play in more attacking teams so the comparison IMO remains fair). It was his first season so an improvement may well come (same goes for Berbatov).

I've said before his awareness brings other people into the game. I think we tend to under utilise this as our front 4 leave big gaps between each other - whether through design or instinct. This is not an individuals fault and 3 of the probably first choice 4 are new so it may alter over time.

[Shaggy]

He has a goals/minute ratio comparable to Rooney and Berbatov who seem to be players other people would like in our team (in fact it is better than Berbatov and worse than Rooney but both play in more attacking teams so the comparison IMO remains fair). It was his first season so an improvement may well come (same goes for Berbatov).

I've said before his awareness brings other people into the game. I think we tend to under utilise this as our front 4 leave big gaps between each other - whether through design or instinct. This is not an individuals fault and 3 of the probably first choice 4 are new so it may alter over time.

I agree that his awareness is very good, and he's good at bringing others into play, with lay-offs or little 'round-the-corner' balls.

I'm concerned about his often brutal first touch, his lack of pace, his lack of killer instinct and his finishing. He's also rubbish in the air. I hope he proves me wrong and he's got 10 months to do so.

If there's no progression by May then I fancy he'll be on his bike.

[Neil Young]

No need to be facetious.

I see no counter-argument. No justification for the time he spends outside the box.

He didn't score yesterday - look in the paper. That said, that's barely relevant. I'm more concerned about the grand scheme of things and his inability to scare opposition defences.

Why is my point facetious? You choose to slam Kuyt for not scoring (even though he did) as though that's his job alone and his only job.

Having said that, I can do without a fractious debate at this time on a Monday morning. You are of course perfectly entitled to choose to see it whatever way you want. I don't think you're taking all the data into account and I think you approach the analysis with an agenda but, as I said, that charge could probably be levelled at all of us.

[Pablo]

No need to be facetious.

I see no counter-argument. No justification for the time he spends outside the box.

He didn't score yesterday - look in the paper. That said, that's barely relevant. I'm more concerned about the grand scheme of things and his inability to scare opposition defences.

Shaggy you are making yourself look silly re "the goal", we all know it was a goal whether the paper states it or not. We all know it wasnt a penalty as well! Personally I thought he had a good game, certainly much livelier than he has been in all the other pre-season games. He scored one (although it was ludicrously missed) and set another up on a plte for Voronin (who already seems immune from criticism). He will go on to have a good season and will score more goals than last year. He is a £10 million striker not a £20 million one, I think for the return we will get on him he will eventually prove to be a shrewd buy.

Also where was Crouch yesterday? He's been appalling in pre-season for far? We may as well all criticise him know hadnt we? Oh how things change...

[MrMichael]

Disagree mate. Hard work doesn't win you games. Hard work won't score you goals. Hard work should be a given and I expect it from everyone.

Sorry Shaggy, but that's a bit silly.

Hard work is exactly what wins you games. It also scores you goals, or allows others to score them. Hard work is not a given, certainly not at the level it is put in by Kuyt. Hard work in training is also what will lead Kuyt to improve, and to ensure he carries out the instructions fo his manager to the letter. Nobody's saying they wouldn't like to see a bit more regular finishing from the lad, but overall I thought he did pretty well in his first season in England, and see no reason why he won't get better reward this year.

I'm almost incredulous that people are advocating either playing Voronin, whom nobody has seen kick a ball in anger for us so far, or even Crouch, who has been gash in pre-season, and recently seems to have as many completely anonymous games as he does good ones, ahead of him.

[Harv]

Did Kuyt score more than 23 goals last season for us?? Last time I looked it was 13 in all comps...

Also, Berbatov had 16 assists in all comps where Kuyt had 4.

I was talking about the premier league.....Uefa Cup goals dont really count do they

[Shaggy]

Why is my point facetious? You choose to slam Kuyt for not scoring (even though he did) as though that's his job alone and his only job.

Having said that, I can do without a fractious debate at this time on a Monday morning. You are of course perfectly entitled to choose to see it whatever way you want. I don't think you're taking all the data into account and I think you approach the analysis with an agenda but, as I said, that charge could probably be levelled at all of us.

Because Kuyt is a striker and one of the criticisms I level at him is that he doesn't score enough goals.

No agenda whatsoever, you couldn't be more wrong. I just think he's lacking, that's all, and I'm waiting to be proven wrong.

Would Kuyt get ANYWHERE NEAR the team at United, Chelsea or Arsenal? No.

He needs to improve on his first season, much like Crouch improved on his first season.

[Shaggy]

Also where was Crouch yesterday? He's been appalling in pre-season for far? We may as well all criticise him know hadnt we? Oh how things change...

WTF?

Crouch has had a shocking pre-season and I said as much on Friday, but wtf has that got to do with this thread? Crouch scored 18 goals last season, in case you've forgotten.

[Neil Young]

Because Kuyt is a striker and one of the criticisms I level at him is that he doesn't score enough goals.

No agenda whatsoever, you couldn't be more wrong. I just think he's lacking, that's all, and I'm waiting to be proven wrong.

Would Kuyt get ANYWHERE NEAR the team at United, Chelsea or Arsenal? No.

He needs to improve on his first season, much like Crouch improved on his first season.

Your "agenda" is that you think he's lacking.

You may be right. I just don't think there was enough evidence yesterday to support that contention.

[JPK]

Because Kuyt is a striker and one of the criticisms I level at him is that he doesn't score enough goals.

No agenda whatsoever, you couldn't be more wrong. I just think he's lacking, that's all, and I'm waiting to be proven wrong.

Would Kuyt get ANYWHERE NEAR the team at United, Chelsea or Arsenal? No.

He needs to improve on his first season, much like Crouch improved on his first season.

Would Crouch gets in any of them teams?