chatroom poison

[Redlife]

It's a good post.



I don't take most of the ranting seriously anymore. Some people are reasonable and knowledgeable about football and it's a plesure to read what they have to say.



However an awful lot of it is just nonsense. Such and such a player is **** (before he's even signed or played for us, or the poster has even properly seen him play), such and such needs to be dropped - he's ****, Rafa will never win the league - FACT!!!, that 0-0 draw in September has WRECKED our chances of the league, etc, etc.




I think it's the certainty and extremity with which people people post their half-arsed opinions which causes most arguments and bad feeling.

[MrMichael]

I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before that changes. A lot of people here seem to be really reluctant to imagine that they have any responsibility for any real consequences outside. I think there is a connection - we help create a climate where anger and abuse is seen as a normal part of our passion for our teams. It matters

Interesting thread, well made thesis, I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment.

When Venton says that "However I don't think it has any effect at all on the real world.", I do find it interesting that some of the posts on here are reflected in the views you hear on phone-in shows like 606, which are often used in turn by the lazy media as a representation of the feelings of fans. I do think it does have an impact, maybe not as great as other things like ticket sales or negative atmosphere at grounds, but I do agree that it helps create a wider "climate".

[Imy]

Interesting thread, well made thesis, I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment.

When Venton says that "However I don't think it has any effect at all on the real world.", I do find it interesting that some of the posts on here are reflected in the views you hear on phone-in shows like 606, which are often used in turn by the lazy media as a representation of the feelings of fans. I do think it does have an impact, maybe not as great as other things like ticket sales or negative atmosphere at grounds, but I do agree that it helps create a wider "climate".

But fan's opinions have always had some effect, prior to the Internet days there was the fanzines, when a manager was crap (mostly at other clubs) their would be a sack the manager chant or campaign, same with the sack the board etc.

[RedProf]

I'd like to know what % of fans are internet forum users.............I'd imagine the majority are not and thus we're only talking about a small segment of the fanbase.

[MrMichael]

But fan's opinions have always had some effect, prior to the Internet days there was the fanzines, when a manager was crap (mostly at other clubs) their would be a sack the manager chant or campaign, same with the sack the board etc.

True, but access, ability to whip up furore and so on, has never been so widespread, or participated in by so many of varying degrees of perspective. Plus, the point that was made earlier in the thread, the sensationalist attitude of the prime viewing vehicle for many these days, Sky, and their demand for immediacy, has never been so great.

[Imy]

the sensationalist attitude of the prime viewing vehicle for many these days, Sky, and their demand for immediacy, has never been so great.

It's because there is so much football available, when i was growing up (1980's) there was MOTD on Saturday night and a live game on ITV/BBC, there was no Internet, no radio/tv phone-ins, the financial rewards for winning was not as high as today.

Now we have football on a all the time, there are dedicated Sport channels that need programming, Sly sports is like the gutter press they need a story to sell the games, clubs in crisis are always a good selling point.

Football is now so freely viewable everyman and his dog has an opinion and so where do these people vent their frustration/jubilation the place which brings the world together- the Internet.

[Venton]

True, but access, ability to whip up furore and so on, has never been so widespread, or participated in by so many of varying degrees of perspective. Plus, the point that was made earlier in the thread, the sensationalist attitude of the prime viewing vehicle for many these days, Sky, and their demand for immediacy, has never been so great.

I was thinking about all the stuff in the press at the moment and looking at the way some of the journalists write their pieces, especially when talking about the reaction of the fans etc, then I remembered this thread.

I retract my original opinion about it not mattering Diggeragain. You were right

[Diggeragain]

I was thinking about all the stuff in the press at the moment and looking at the way some of the journalists write their pieces, especially when talking about the reaction of the fans etc, then I remembered this thread.

I retract my original opinion about it not mattering Diggeragain. You were right

Hi Venton

surprised to see my post back up there amid all this. What in particular made you think about it again - especially when in some respects our esteemed owners might be proving YOUR point about us having no power at all?

[disco]

Good post. I think the internet has certainly contributed to the insta-success culture, where managers of some clubs get sacked very quickly if they don't perform.

It also fuels the media (and is fuelled by the media), so no doubt the press have got worse off the years.

[Venton]

Hi Venton

surprised to see my post back up there amid all this. What in particular made you think about it again - especially when in some respects our esteemed owners might be proving YOUR point about us having no power at all?

Hi again mate.
I was just looking through a lot of the press articles and it is obvious that a lot of their assessments of the mood of the fans comes from reading the online forums of sites such as these. They then write up the articles which confirms and reinforces the original mood, especially when the articles are posted in their entirety back on forums themselves - they become self-referential.
I initially thought that forums usually represented more examples of the extremes of opinions than you would get in the real world but that the effects of posting them would normally be confined to the forums themselves rather than leaking out into general behaviour. I was wrong though - these forums are far more potent in affecting the outside world than I thought, especially when they are used by the press which gives them much wider circulation.
Of course when you have owners that don't care about the general mood at all, whether out there or in here, then it's a bit academic, isn't it?

[Jacko]

this has been building up with me for a while. and it is how much damage chat rooms like ours do. those of us who can't get to the matches regularly get more and more of footie fix from the Internet. Some of its fun, some of it is blowing off steam, too much of it is poison. The constant slagging of individual players, Rafa, Rick and other teams fans too. It's getting to me. this is not about being an out-of-towner. It is knowing how to be a proper supporter. I've always been ultra loyal to Liverpool managers and refused to slag off a player unless he wasn't trying. Now I too sit and scream at the telly at individual players, shout at Rafa for baffling decisions (he'd often baffled me by the way but he's more than not right), and compose long posts in my head about my current pet hate - mine at the moment is Voronin. I haven't seen him live - I have no real right to pass judgement. But the chat room poison is telling all of us that we are not properly passionate supporters if we don't treat every match as a matter of life and death. It is just because we care that we are allowed to get every moronic grumble off our chests.

Do not think that this Internet licence does not matter. It does. It will get managers sacked, turn once good players into quivering jellies and will destroy good will between fans and players, and fans of different teams. Just witness some of the horrible chanting that we hear now. A few season ago at Millwall I was sitting there and shocked at the hideous Hillsborough chants from Millwall. At the time we noted that not even ManU fans chanted that stuff. They do now.
Many of you will think the fan sites are good for the game. Some of you will think you have a birthright to get any knee-jerk reaction off your chest any time you want. You may think it is harmless enough to shout your mouth off on a safe fans-only site. When we end up with Rafa sacked, good players destroyed and hooliganism creeping back into the game - I wonder will you take any responsibility then?

I agree with some of your points but the ones about hooliganism and fans not going ape **** are completely wrong.

First of all it's not just fans on this sight that don't go the game (which i'm sure you mentioned in your post- fair play) and because of this along with out recent piss-poor performances the people who do go the game have more places to vent their splien- thats fair enough, anyone who was stupid enough to go to Derby or/and City over Christmas (and yes I was stupid enough) has every right to come on here voice their concerns after spending x amount of pounds watching what is essentially sh!te.

Secondly- Internet forums don't create football hooligansim. Take it from me or anyone else who's had a hiding at Old Trafford, been chased at City or been on the recieving end of an attempted robbery and slicing abroad in say Barcelona then internet forums are full of mouthy little cunts who have as much spine for a rumble as a freshly made jelly.

Football hooliganism, never went away in the first place. It got slightly quieter but right through the nineties and the so called "naughties" but there's been fights going off all round the country. Only now it's nobheads dressed to the nines in burberry and aquascootem with bad attitudes thinking cause they give it a bit of mouth they're hard. The Chelsea fans outside Stamford bridge in 2006 can probably testify to that. After numerous chants of "wheres your famous headhunters?!" All's we got in return was some fat, loud mouthed cockney bitch telling us we had no jobs and then a few things got thrown at buses.

Your right though- this type of behaviour in itself does happen on internet forums (i.e. the cocky, mouthy posts that come through cause they're hidden by a computer screen) and it does ruin the fun that forums bring.

hooliganism though doesn't come from internet forums, it comes from fans who can't stand each other either taunting each other enough for one side to snap and have a pop or a revenge mission- often cause by the first example.

Unfortunately dude- forums are here now, for better or worse and along with the "freedom of speech" (blame those ******* yanks again ) not a lot of sensoring can be done.

You just need to decide which post are worth listening to and what posts are largely sh!te





Mine are generally the second

[Diggeragain]

Hi again mate.
I was just looking through a lot of the press articles and it is obvious that a lot of their assessments of the mood of the fans comes from reading the online forums of sites such as these. They then write up the articles which confirms and reinforces the original mood, especially when the articles are posted in their entirety back on forums themselves - they become self-referential.
I initially thought that forums usually represented more examples of the extremes of opinions than you would get in the real world but that the effects of posting them would normally be confined to the forums themselves rather than leaking out into general behaviour. I was wrong though - these forums are far more potent in affecting the outside world than I thought, especially when they are used by the press which gives them much wider circulation.
Of course when you have owners that don't care about the general mood at all, whether out there or in here, then it's a bit academic, isn't it?

RE: the media taking it up - yes, you're dead right and this whole saga has been a case in point. Cuts a few ways this time - I'm not in Liverpool now - I'm exiled near Arsenal and you can imagine how great that feels at the moment. But I've been relying heavily of forums - this and RAWK in particular to try to get a sense of the mood. Journos will be doing exactly the same and I'm not unhappy with that at the moment.

cheers mate - a lot of food for thought in all this- although at the moment it does seem a bit of (welcome) academic distraction

[Exiled_red]

I don't think chat rooms are a problem I say the same things on here as I used to at the game, with my mates down the pub on the phone via text etc.

While there is such an interest in football more and more people will want to express their views, pundits, journalists and fans, the difference is that now there are more ways to express your views in public phone ins and forums.

[mersey86]

The Hillsborough chant comment struck me. I remember in the eighties the Kop always used to sing about Munich when we played the Mancs. Disgusting of course, but for many of them the horror of the event was a distant memory ... if that. Maybe now Hillsborough has reached that stage. People's memories are fading and a new generation of supporters is here who have no memory of that awful day and its aftermath. If Liverpool fans stopped singing about Munich it was because they had seen up close just how much the game was less important than the people.
Maybe hatred is on the rise again but it has long been there - my first experience of the Kop against United was an eye-opener - a seething mass of hatred would not be too dramatic an expression. I went with a mate, normally a very quiet and civil person. We got separated early on as the crowd swayed back and forth. Then we scored and I turned as several rows of fans came swarming down in the "celebration", my mate amongst them, 'V' signs from both hands, mouth frothing with obscenity.
For many people the match, and now the internet forums, are a way to release the stresses of day to day life - job going badly, take it out on the opposition, or your own team if they don't win.

[Jazzmaster]

I don't blame the internet for it all to be honest although it may add oil to the fire , I blame Sky Sports and it's overhyped immediacy.

Every game is deemed as "vital" and "must win" and questions are asked about manager's suitability on the say so of a once average footballer who turned down the chance at management and a hairy Coventry fan who used to work for Radio City.

That is a very accurate post. Under the sky school of thought (although the BBC arent blameless here either - im looking at you John Motson) every goal conceded by any team is a disaster but more to the point, every goal conceded is somebodys fault, whereas anyone that has ever played the game knows damn well that some things just happen. It can be down to a bounce of a ball, a gust of wind, a freaky bounce etc. **** just happens. I mean to blame paul robinson for that fresh air kick for England or to blame David Seaman for the Ronaldinio Goal illustrates the point well. These things happen is football but when some idiot pundit says 'this man is to blame for that goal' or 'this managers selection is to blame' then the public buys into it and, to a large extent, is convinced by it.

They are so quick to point fingers at who is poor but praise only seems to be reserved for the top teams and/or the 'flavour of the month' players.

I certainly dont think internet forums have anywhere near the influence of the tv stations and cannot attribute much blame to them if any at all.