Controversial LFC thread.

[dww]

the classical "sweeper" would be "kaiser" franz beckenbauer. I agree the "holding" midfielder has taken over from the sweeper in fashion but the 2 roles are very different. the sweeper needs great anticipation and awareness and unless there good enough to turn defence into attack with a quick pass or a run with the ball, the sweeper is a bit of a waste.

it was actually a really tough position to play technically.

if phil neville tried to do it hed win a comedy award

You see the description you give of the sweeper role perfectly describe what I believe holding players like Mascher do (particularly if you see him play for Argentina).

To me the Phil Neville approach to the role is effectively to be a CB 10 yards higher up the pitch and this is why he can get away with it. Everton have no ambition to be a better team and in that situation his way of playing the role works out. However this variation of how to play the role is quickly found out at top teams and international level.

I think that the former variation of the role remains a valid one to play as a top team but requires a highly specialist player.

thats a new term for me - is that distinct from a playmaker? ie implying a midfileder with the stated role (and presumed athleticism) to get up and support the attack?

if so its a good term for gerard, or rueben baraja of valencia - other examples might be lampard or scholes.

Thats my take on it but I have to rely on knowledge gained from English language websites so I may be wrong. I would be interested to see how say Pirlo would be classified in Brazil.

i guess my feelings re mascher are that when you compare him to the combination of say - keane and scholes, viera and petit, souness and mcdermott/case, essien/makelele and lampard, I feel that while gerard is a match for ANY "second volante" in that list, mascher isnt as good as the defensive players and if were spending £17million, i wish we could find somebody who is. that said, i wouldnt cry if we signed him at that price.

I have to say I'm torn on Mascher and would like to wait to see him play more in a confident team in the PL. His early form in this season implied he did indeed lack the extra quality to cope with being pressured at pace but in the last three games he seems to have found himself a bit more and coped well IMO with being targeted in the Fulham game. Although obviously they are only Fulham.

i think that benitez will, in time, revert to 4-2-3-1. masch/alonso/gerard are an excellent blend for that system. torres is also an excellent striker in it. the current problem in our squad is that absolutely none of our wide players are up to playing at the level you need to win titles in that setup.
harry kewell HAS played to that level at times but very rarely for lfc and i doubt hell ever get back to that level again. benayoun is a decent pro but short of that class and pennant is just not up to it.

I'd very much have liked us to sign simao sabrosa and seen him either in that system or in a 4-4-2

I completely agree with your assessment of the system. I would however rate Benayoun slightly higher than you.

I wanted Simao in the summer as he seems to be the sort of experienced and intelligent attacking player we lack.

[Howard_lfc]

i think that benitez will, in time, revert to 4-2-3-1. masch/alonso/gerard are an excellent blend for that system. torres is also an excellent striker in it. the current problem in our squad is that absolutely none of our wide players are up to playing at the level you need to win titles in that setup.
harry kewell HAS played to that level at times but very rarely for lfc and i doubt hell ever get back to that level again. benayoun is a decent pro but short of that class and pennant is just not up to it.

I'd very much have liked us to sign simao sabrosa and seen him either in that system or in a 4-4-2

4-2-3-1.

I'm not sure we'll see this anytime soon - although I do think it's Rafa's preferred system. The Albelda/Barraja axis at Valencia was pretty much a constant and I believe we have too many CM's in order to perfect this with a sustained/settled pairing in the middle. We also lack a No.10 (Aimar)- and these don't come cheap; Tevez would have been ideal but that's history now. And finally as well know - our wide players simply are not up to it either so I can't see this system being implemented and working as effectively as it did for Valencia.

[dww]

4-2-3-1.

I'm not sure we'll see this anytime soon - although I do think it's Rafa's preferred system. The Albelda/Barraja axis at Valencia was pretty much a constant and I believe we have too many CM's in order to perfect this with a sustained/settled pairing in the middle. We also lack a No.10 (Aimar)- and these don't come cheap; Tevez would have been ideal but that's history now. And finally as well know - our wide players simply are not up to it either so I can't see this system being implemented and working as effectively as it did for Valencia.

I'm not sure that when we play Kuyt and Torres we are that far from it to be honest. I think we can all agree that we need at least one more top quality addition to make the 3 good enough to win the league in all likelihood.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

Pointless debate.

Of course he's worth the money.

Sell Sissoko to help pay for it.

[Howard_lfc]

Pointless debate.

Of course he's worth the money.

Sell Sissoko to help pay for it.

Pointless? Really?

[The Glove]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IV5QZrXli2w

Worth the money.

[glynner]

Worth the money.

The team needs players of his calibre. His tackling and positioning are first rate, and his ball distribution will only get better imo - he can be a gem of a player for us.

[Alpha]

Pointless? Really?

It is absolutely pointless.

I'm not even going to bother putting forward my views on this subject because if Mascherano's obvious class isn't enough to convince people, nothing I can say is going to.

[ningnangnong]

It is absolutely pointless.

I'm not even going to bother putting forward my views on this subject because if Mascherano's obvious class isn't enough to convince people, nothing I can say is going to.

Spot on.

[CAD]

I understand your sentiments Les mate but it's the way of football now, huh.

United paid more for Carrick and Hargreaves, and he's better than either of them. In that sense, he'll be worth every penny.

My thoughts as well...

[Skillz]

Momo is no holding midfielder. He's a poor attacking midfielder. Rafa has always played him in front of Xabi / El Jefecito.

Maybe it's semantics, but his game is very different to, for example Makele or El Jefecito.

If you listen to Rafa himself I am almost certain he has made this clear. Momo and Stevie are the attacking midfielders and Xabi/Masch DM. Rafa'a team selections/formations support it as well.

So for the life of me why do people keep describing Momo as a DM?

[dww]

If you listen to Rafa himself I am almost certain he has made this clear. Momo and Stevie are the attacking midfielders and Xabi/Masch DM. Rafa'a team selections/formations support it as well.

So for the life of me why do people keep describing Momo as a DM?

To be honest either description is equally useless if you ask me. When you say defensive midfielder people associate it with some one who is tied to a deeper position - which Momo blatantly doesn't. An attacking midfielder would be associated with creating chances and hence be given greater positional freedom.

Momo does not create chances as a general rule and all his strengths are destructive (or to use a different word defensive). He doesn't stay in a set position so he doesn't fit into the stereotype of a defensive midfielder.

There is a truth to your original statement in that Rafa will rarely play Momo without a traditional defensive type of midfielder to give someone to bring the ball out of defence. Therefore in a way Momo competes most commonly with an attacking option in midfield - I'm far from convinced that makes him an attacking midfielder though.

[Howard_lfc]

If you listen to Rafa himself I am almost certain he has made this clear. Momo and Stevie are the attacking midfielders and Xabi/Masch DM. Rafa'a team selections/formations support it as well.

So for the life of me why do people keep describing Momo as a DM?

Momo is not an attacking CM as he couldn't score in a brothel.
He's a destroyer - plain and simple.

[Taffy]

I'm going to open this thread with a controversial statement regarding Masher:
I wouldn't like to pay more that £10m for a holding midfielder player. And I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near the reported £17m for him. For that kind of money I would want somebody who can hold,tackle,pass,score,dictate games, set up goals and is in general an all rounder (Xabi,Pirlo). £17m to 'hold'? No thanks.

I can also see where you are coming form mate, but paying the supposed £17m is around the going rate these days for the top players it seems.

If you look at our options here we have Stevie, Xabi, Momo, Lucas and Mascherano. Stevie is wasted in the holding role so it's down to the other four then. Xabi is the main man for me as he is the one who can really dictate the play for us with his passing and footballing ability. Then there's Lucas who is new to all this over here and will take time to settle although he's done all right so far and if full of potential. And then we have Momo.

Momo has dropped back with his performances and hasn't produced the goods of late, but he's never going to be the one to take the game by the scruff of the neck and dictate things for us is he! Yes, he's good at stopping the opposition from playing but the main problem with Momo is that he hasn't the natural ability to give a good pass when it's needed, and has lost possession on more than one occasion in games. For me it's time to sell Momo when we can get a good price for him as he's just not producing the quality we're used to from him before his injury setbacks. This amount can then also go towards the Mascher price.

Therefore, with Momo gone (provided he goes) we really do need Mascherano for what he offers in our defending third at those crucial times - the ability to break down the opposition, the ability to find a good pass and get us moving quickly, and the ability to get around the park hastling the opposition into mistakes. I'm sure the odd goal will come from him too in time, and he's now a crucial part of our machine if we want to succeed in the future. Alonso can do this to a degree but isn't as effective as Mascher in this department. Lucas will be given time to develop over here and may well turn out into another good option for this position in the future.

Myself I wouldn't want us to pay a huge sum for Mascher but if £17m is the price to sign him for a leangthy period then so be it - as long as we can afford it!

[Skillz]

Momo is not an attacking CM as he couldn't score in a brothel.
He's a destroyer - plain and simple.

Spot on....almost.

I prefer "box to box destroyer"