A Reality check for deluded fans.

[dww]

Didn't someone (dww I think) give you a perfectly reasonable alternative explanation of your historical "analysis" in another thread? Perhaps you responded, triumphantly destroying the counter-argument and I missed it or maybe I'm just imagining it - age plays tricks with the mind you see.

Does anyone know the post/thread I'm referring to?

Not sure if it is what you are referring to but I did argue th e point with him here.

[mersey86]

That's very funny. You should leave some room on the left for Rashid, though.

[Neil Young]

Not sure if it is what you are referring to but I did argue th e point with him here.

That's the one, thanks.

I guess he didn't see your counter-argument since he didn't respond in that thread and has simply repeated what he said there in this one as though he hasn't felt a need to take into account what you say, let alone revise his opinion. It's strange though because he did respond to other people on that thread after you posted.

I thought you came up with a good alternative explanation that at least would complicate if not entirely undermine the "Ferguson isn't relevant any more" assertion. Perhaps we're both just wrong.

[CAD]

[dww]

That's the one, thanks.

I guess he didn't see your counter-argument since he didn't respond in that thread and has simply repeated what he said there in this one as though he hasn't felt a need to take into account what you say, let alone revise his opinion. It's strange though because he did respond to other people on that thread after you posted.

I thought you came up with a good alternative explanation that at least would complicate if not entirely undermine the "Ferguson isn't relevant any more" assertion. Perhaps we're both just wrong.

I'm sure it's been known

[sonsofthedesert]

That's very funny. You should leave some room on the left for Rashid, though.

Mate Radish is that far on the depression side it wouldn't fit on your screen.

[Johnny]

Mate Radish is that far on the depression side it wouldn't fit on your screen.

That side would be very full.

[sonsofthedesert]

That side would be very full.

Mate, I think everyone on here would be on that side but for varying reasons.

[Johnny]

Mate, I think everyone on here would be on that side but for varying reasons.

Not me.

[sonsofthedesert]

Not me.

Can't you back to being quincy, miss the avatar and have to remind myself that you've changed your name.

[CAD]

Can't you back to being quincy, miss the avatar and have to remind myself that you've changed your name.

AHHHH. Johnny used to be Quincy?!!!!! Now I understand

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

As Man Utd are our biggest rivals I thought I'd take a look at Alex Fergusons first years in charge. And there is no doubt, Rafa is far and way more successfull than Ferguson, in every way possible. Mind you, as Rafa has already bettered Fergies success in Europe in his first three seasons, thats not suprising. To be fair to Fergie, only first place got you in the top Euro competition when he took over, but lets not forget that Man Utd came second the season prior to winning it.

People always seem to forget the initial failings of Alex Ferguson though. Man Utd took a huge downward spiral when Fergie took over. Prior to him getting the job they had finished in the top 4 in the previous four seasons.

When he took over, despite spending big money he finished 11th in the league. The following season he finished 2nd and despite being considered title contenders, the following season they finished 11th.

His 4th season was the watershed, again they were poor in the league - in the relegation places at one point despite spending £6m on three players alone, one of which was a record transfer fee for a defender. In fact as it is famously known, Mark Robins saved Fergie from the sack with a vital FA cup goal, which they eventually went on to win (his first trophy). The following season they won the Euro Cup winners cup and the rest as they say is history.

So........ We've done better in the league, better in Europe, Won the FA cup before Fergie, and also made a league cup final, which Fergie didn't.

That, in my opinion, is the first years of the greatest club manager around today. And Rafa is right on track to bettering this.

I see no reason to rip it up and start again.

In no way shape or form do I want him replaced.

But I have concerns about him. I'm of the opinion that anyone who doesn't have doubts or concerns about Rafa are the deluded ones.

I have to question why you'd use the comparison with Demento to re-enforce your point. There's simply no need. Also it's assumptive to suggest that because Rafa has achieved more in the earlier years of his career in English football than Ferguson did, that in the future he'll continue to be successful.

I think the general frustration stems from our failure to progress from title hopefuls to title challengers. We see our excellent performances against the best in Europe, and then you wonder how we manage to drop points at home to Wigan.

Let's state the facts here; during Rafa's tenure we haven't challenged for the league title - of course this is dependent on the definition of a title challenge, still being in with a chance by Easter seems reasonable.

And this is where I have my concerns. I see him taking off Torres and Gerrard against Reading when there was still a chance of getting something from that game, and I wonder what message that sends, not to the fans but the players. This is speculation on my part, but I get the impression that Rafa doesn't believe he can win the league with this current squad of players (and he may be right), he's even hinted so, the problem is that I think the majority of players now believe this also. So to me it's no surprise that the team go into games against the scum lacking belief. If your manager doesn't believe in you why should you believe in yourself?

Then there's his strange obsession with using opaque tactical anomalies which simply cannot be rationally explained. Crouch on the left? Kuyt on the right? Even more frustrating is our style of football, or lack of it. Most worrying of all is that without Gerrard and Torres we seem to lack the courage and conviction to pass the football, and more importantly create and score goals. There are no excuses for that, aside from 5 players this squad was bought entirely by Rafa.

As far as I'm concerned you can buy all the world class players you like, but to win the league our manager has to improve and or change his methods. Either adapt and survive, or don't and you won't. It's that simple now for Benitez.

So it's all fine and well saying we shouldn't replace the manager, but surely we should criticize him for his failings which are currently apparent? Or would it be better if we were all superfans? In that case Houllier would still be here. Food for thought?

[CAD]

In no way shape or form do I want him replaced.

But I have concerns about him. I'm of the opinion that anyone who doesn't have doubts or concerns about Rafa are the deluded ones.

I have to question why you'd use the comparison with Demento to re-enforce your point. There's simply no need. Also it's assumptive to suggest that because Rafa has achieved more in the earlier years of his career in English football than Ferguson did, that in the future he'll continue to be successful.

I think the general frustration stems from our failure to progress from title hopefuls to title challengers. We see our excellent performances against the best in Europe, and then you wonder how we manage to drop points at home to Wigan.

Let's state the facts here; during Rafa's tenure we haven't challenged for the league title - of course this is dependent on the definition of a title challenge, still being in with a chance by Easter seems reasonable.

And this is where I have my concerns. I see him taking off Torres and Gerrard against Reading when there was still a chance of getting something from that game, and I wonder what message that sends, not to the fans but the players. This is speculation on my part, but I get the impression that Rafa doesn't believe he can win the league with this current squad of players (and he may be right), he's even hinted so, the problem is that I think the majority of players now believe this also. So to me it's no surprise that the team go into games against the scum lacking belief. If your manager doesn't believe in you why should you believe in yourself?

Then there's his strange obsession with using opaque tactical anomalies which simply cannot be rationally explained. Crouch on the left? Kuyt on the right? Even more frustrating is our style of football, or lack of it. Most worrying of all is that without Gerrard and Torres we seem to lack the courage and conviction to pass the football, and more importantly create and score goals. There are no excuses for that, aside from 5 players this squad was bought entirely by Rafa.

As far as I'm concerned you can buy all the world class players you like, but to win the league our manager has to improve and or change his methods. Either adapt and survive, or don't and you won't. It's that simple now for Benitez.

So it's all fine and well saying we shouldn't replace the manager, but surely we should criticize him for his failings which are currently apparent? Or would it be better if we were all superfans? In that case Houllier would still be here. Food for thought?

I feel you, CMS

[Neil Young]

No-one is deluded*. We just don't see it the same way.





* Apart from AF"Istudiedbodylanguageyouknow"II

[Craig_H]

I have to disagree; you compare Evra to Riise, Ronaldo/Giggs/Nani to ANY of the players we have on our wings, and either or Saha or Tevez compared to any one of our strikers bar Torres and they come up tops, every time. We need GENUINE quality in more areas across the pitch, we don't have it enough just yet.

Yeah but do you really need those top players to beat the likes of Wigan, Derby, Boro, Fulham, Sunderland, Brum, West Ham, Bolton and Reading?