A Reality check for deluded fans.

[Craig_H]

If we cannot learn from history, then we are unlikely to make solid progress. History tells us that anything worth building takes time. Sure there are short cuts, but they require a huge influx of money (Blackburn, Chelsea). Arsenal are at a point where long-term policy is paying off. Liverpool are close.

So do most people. I think, if we're honest, most of us are very disappointed with recent weeks. Some of us just automatically shout for change, some determine to see it through. I think Rafa has made mistakes - I think he has learned from most of them. I think he is a good manager. I think our hopes of winning the league in the next three years lie with him.

History tells us that not having a stable system and team wins you no league titles. It also tells us that it's incredibly hard to win the CL and the league in the same season, which means you need to make the league the number one priority if you want to win it. It also tells us that places like Portsmouth arent ones where you're likely to win without your top players.

As for seeing it through - what part of the no league improvement suggests to you that Rafa's going to win the league?

And the next THREE years now, is it?

So when he was appointed, we were looking at a seven year wait? I dont remember many of us saying that.

[Skillz]

Quite right actually we did. It equals Rafa's very own 5th place finish, doesnt it?

Seems the 'fact' about Rafa's league achievements being so similar to GH's was even more accurate...

Well sort of. Something about 04/05 was different for me though.

EDIT: and the fact Rafa has never finished 4th

[johnp]

Quite right actually we did. It equals Rafa's very own 5th place finish, doesnt it?

Seems the 'fact' about Rafa's league achievements being so similar to GH's was even more accurate...

Time to change your sig DJS?

[Craig_H]

Well sort of. Something about 04/05 was different for me though.

Well yes naturally.

Nobody can use Rafa's european record as any kind of criticism against him, he has no peers in that department.

Sadly though, the league is very important and he has shown little sign IMO that he can sustain a genuine challenge.

[Craig_H]

Time to change your sig DJS?

No need to change it, it was still a classic interview and quote...and it will be one of many wonderful memories when the time comes for Rafa to move on.

I hope that time isnt for ages, because it'd mean he'd sorted things and lead us to success.

People seem to think i dont like Rafa. This saddens me, i love the fella.

I just love the club more.

[johnp]

No need to change it, it was still a classic interview and quote.

People seem to think i dont like Rafa. This saddens me, i love the fella.

I just love the club more.

Sorry that I saddened you

[Craig_H]

No problem.

[Pacman]

Well yes naturally.

Nobody can use Rafa's european record as any kind of criticism against him, he has no peers in that department.

Sadly though, the league is very important and he has shown little sign IMO that he can sustain a genuine challenge.

We've been beaten twice this season in the league that is **** all. We've had too many draws but you turn a couple of those draws (which we should have won) into wins and we are right up there.

For example we should have beaten Wigan they had one shot and one goal and we should have beaten City. Win those 2 games and we are right up there. It's fine lines and you can't honestly tell me with one or 2 top signings in the summer added to what we've already got we wont be challenging for the title.

[jack sonnelle]

Why do i give a monkey's about what ferguson did 20 years ago?

It's not relevant, i want LFC to challenge for the title and i feel after the money we've spent, it's not asking that much.



You seem keen to pick and choose which 'facts' are valid and which arent.

After nearly £150m and approaching 4 years, Rafa hasnt improved our league standing at all, from what Houllier achieved.

Before Rafa came in, GH had us finishing 3rd or 4th, with one 2nd place. Rafa has us finishing 3rd or 4th (without a 2nd, but with a 5th).


There's a fact for you.

I don't know why you'd be interested in what Ferguson did 20 years ago. Just that the point of the original post was to compare Rafa's period in charge to date with Ferguson's tenure during his early years, and Rafa comes out very favourably.

I don't think I'm being particularly choosy about my facts either. Houllier went from 4th to 3rd to 2nd and then 5th. Chelsea were hardly in the frame at the time so the only real contenders were Arsenal and Man U. The only time we managed to split them was during the last week of a season where they were the only realistic challengers and Arsenal won at Man U to win the league, leaving us to come up on the rails and steal second. Up until that defeat Utd were the main challengers to Arsenal and we weren't in with a shout.

Regardless of all this anyway, let me ask you a question. Who would you like to replace Rafa who you seriously think would get us nearer the title? Because if you've got no-one in mind it's all just hot air anyway.

Rafa is a decent man and a great manager. His record at Valencia - and yes, at Liverpool - speaks for itself. He is close to getting it right. I just hope the Sky generation give him the chance to fulfill his vision for the club.

[mersey86]

As for seeing it through - what part of the no league improvement suggests to you that Rafa's going to win the league?

And the next THREE years now, is it?

So when he was appointed, we were looking at a seven year wait? I dont remember many of us saying that.

Because we did not .. and you are just being argumentative. We would all have hoped to win the league sooner. It has not happened, but the manager still has forward momentum - he is a proven winner and has developed the team. I think he'll get it right. Bring someone else in - anyone you can name - I think we take several steps backward.
We want the best for Liverpool. If you have a better alternative, spell it out.

[jack sonnelle]

History tells us that not having a stable system and team wins you no league titles.

Actually, if you're taking Utd and Chelsea as examples, no it doesn't. Just the opposite in fact.

During each of the last three seasons Benitez made EXACTLY the same number of changes as the manager's of the title winning sides (Mourinho twice, then Ferguson). So, given that we rotated more towards the end of each season when we were looking forward to cup finals and so resting key individuals, it's probably safe to assume that Rafa would otherwise have rotated less than the title winning side - but surprisingly still not won the league!

[Craig_H]

We've been beaten twice this season in the league that is **** all. We've had too many draws but you turn a couple of those draws (which we should have won) into wins and we are right up there.

For example we should have beaten Wigan they had one shot and one goal and we should have beaten City. Win those 2 games and we are right up there. It's fine lines and you can't honestly tell me with one or 2 top signings in the summer added to what we've already got we wont be challenging for the title.

Ifs and shoulds though pacman, we've been uttering them year in, year out.

It's always ifs and buts, ifs and shoulds etc. Ultimately it doesnt translate into points.

Had we been talking about isolated moments of underperformance or poor results, there'd be no problem. But we've won HALF of our games in the league this season. Just half.

That means, every other game we play, we fail to win. That's FAR too regular.

As for 2 top signings - i wouldnt even be convinced that rafa would even PLAY them on a regular basis, let alone in their correct positions.

Babel's a top signing for me, but he isnt being allowed to make the impact he's capable of, half the time because the woeful kuyt is preferred and the other half of the time, he's left out in order to play Kewell!

I really do despair...

[Craig_H]

I don't know why you'd be interested in what Ferguson did 20 years ago. Just that the point of the original post was to compare Rafa's period in charge to date with Ferguson's tenure during his early years, and Rafa comes out very favourably.

I don't think I'm being particularly choosy about my facts either. Houllier went from 4th to 3rd to 2nd and then 5th. Chelsea were hardly in the frame at the time so the only real contenders were Arsenal and Man U. The only time we managed to split them was during the last week of a season where they were the only realistic challengers and Arsenal won at Man U to win the league, leaving us to come up on the rails and steal second. Up until that defeat Utd were the main challengers to Arsenal and we weren't in with a shout.

Regardless of all this anyway, let me ask you a question. Who would you like to replace Rafa who you seriously think would get us nearer the title? Because if you've got no-one in mind it's all just hot air anyway.

Rafa is a decent man and a great manager. His record at Valencia - and yes, at Liverpool - speaks for itself. He is close to getting it right. I just hope the Sky generation give him the chance to fulfill his vision for the club.

If you've been reading 10% of my posts, you'd know who i feel will take us closer to the title.

As for Rafa, yes he is a wonderful fella and i love him to bits. Same could be said for my old man, but i'm not about to put him forward for the job. As for valencia, yes he did great there. Doesnt mean a jot in the Premier League though.

[Craig_H]

Because we did not .. and you are just being argumentative. We would all have hoped to win the league sooner. It has not happened, but the manager still has forward momentum - he is a proven winner and has developed the team. I think he'll get it right. Bring someone else in - anyone you can name - I think we take several steps backward.
We want the best for Liverpool. If you have a better alternative, spell it out.

I've already spelled out the alternative i feel would take us to a higher level.

Rafa has indeed developed the team, but the ultimate thing which counts (league performance) is more or less the same as what GH achieved.

[Craig_H]

Actually, if you're taking Utd and Chelsea as examples, no it doesn't. Just the opposite in fact.

During each of the last three seasons Benitez made EXACTLY the same number of changes as the manager's of the title winning sides (Mourinho twice, then Ferguson). So, given that we rotated more towards the end of each season when we were looking forward to cup finals and so resting key individuals, it's probably safe to assume that Rafa would otherwise have rotated less than the title winning side - but surprisingly still not won the league!

You've not read any of my posts about intelligent rotation, have you?