A Reality check for deluded fans.

[DannyMan2006]

As Man Utd are our biggest rivals I thought I'd take a look at Alex Fergusons first years in charge. And there is no doubt, Rafa is far and way more successfull than Ferguson, in every way possible. Mind you, as Rafa has already bettered Fergies success in Europe in his first three seasons, thats not suprising. To be fair to Fergie, only first place got you in the top Euro competition when he took over, but lets not forget that Man Utd came second the season prior to winning it.

People always seem to forget the initial failings of Alex Ferguson though. Man Utd took a huge downward spiral when Fergie took over. Prior to him getting the job they had finished in the top 4 in the previous four seasons.

When he took over, despite spending big money he finished 11th in the league. The following season he finished 2nd and despite being considered title contenders, the following season they finished 11th.

His 4th season was the watershed, again they were poor in the league - in the relegation places at one point despite spending £6m on three players alone, one of which was a record transfer fee for a defender. In fact as it is famously known, Mark Robins saved Fergie from the sack with a vital FA cup goal, which they eventually went on to win (his first trophy). The following season they won the Euro Cup winners cup and the rest as they say is history.

So........ We've done better in the league, better in Europe, Won the FA cup before Fergie, and also made a league cup final, which Fergie didn't.

That, in my opinion, is the first years of the greatest club manager around today. And Rafa is right on track to bettering this.

I see no reason to rip it up and start again.

[paulcooper4]

As Man Utd are our biggest rivals I thought I'd take a look at Alex Fergusons first years in charge. And there is no doubt, Rafa is far and way more successfull than Ferguson, in every way possible. Mind you, as Rafa has already bettered Fergies success in Europe in his first three seasons, thats not suprising. To be fair to Fergie, only first place got you in the top Euro competition when he took over, but lets not forget that Man Utd came second the season prior to winning it.

People always seem to forget the initial failings of Alex Ferguson though. Man Utd took a huge downward spiral when Fergie took over. Prior to him getting the job they had finished in the top 4 in the previous four seasons.

When he took over, despite spending big money he finished 11th in the league. The following season he finished 2nd and despite being considered title contenders, the following season they finished 11th.

His 4th season was the watershed, again they were poor in the league - in the relegation places at one point despite spending £6m on three players alone, one of which was a record transfer fee for a defender. In fact as it is famously known, Mark Robins saved Fergie from the sack with a vital FA cup goal, which they eventually went on to win (his first trophy). The following season they won the Euro Cup winners cup and the rest as they say is history.

So........ We've done better in the league, better in Europe, Won the FA cup before Fergie, and also made a league cup final, which Fergie didn't.

That, in my opinion, is the first years of the greatest club manager around today. And Rafa is right on track to bettering this.

I see no reason to rip it up and start again.

good post

[jack sonnelle]

Spot on Dannyman!

Who remembers the banner in the Stretford End during Fergies fourth season in charge? "3 Years of Excuses and it's still crap. Ta-ra Fergie".

Perhaps we could come up with one for Rafa - "3 years of cup finals, including one European Cup Win, one FA Cup win, and our highest ever points total in a single season. See ya boss!"

Doesn't quite scan does it? Mind you, the same muppets who want Rafa out will want the next incumbent out after next to no time when he doesn't win every game playing champagne football.

I truly despair!

[Colemere]

Good points and something that you have missed out, the united team of the 90's was made up of players coming through their youth, and what has Rafa done quite a bit of buying youth, given a few more years for them players to develop and we could be back up there in the 20teens

[Ben_Itez]

The doom mongers are really starting to get on my tits. Since when did we have the divine right to win the league every year. The end of the season is when (and the liverpool way) to make a judgement.

Even if we did finish 4th and went out in the next round of the CL there would be no reason to sack Rafa. We're still in transition and getting better all the time. The future's bright.

[Jazzmaster]

The doom mongers are really starting to get on my tits. Since when did we have the divine right to win the league every year. The end of the season is when (and the liverpool way) to make a judgement.

Even if we did finish 4th and went out in the next round of the CL there would be no reason to sack Rafa. We're still in transition and getting better all the time. The future's bright.

How long are we to accept 'being in transition' as a valid excuse? We are substandard, and have been for a while now. I defy you to name more than 2 matches this season when you have come away saying, yeah that was altogther positive. Marseille and Derby are the only two i can think of that were comprehenisvely good performances. I thought we would build on those throughout the season but it hasnt happened. The very fact that you refer to 'transition' speaks volumes about how far we havent come.

[Imy]

i was having a similar discussion with my brother about how Reading did not see the FA cup as their priority survival in the Premiership was. I was arguing why do Reading exist as a football club? surely a sporting teams objective is to win things, silverware and so forth, Survival or just being able to compete is horse ****, this just proves that a club is a business.

Liverpool FC do not have a divine right to win things BUT surely the aim is to win the League, surely as fans we have some expectations of winning. Why else exist to finance a debt?

[bobbyfallon]

How long are we to accept 'being in transition' as a valid excuse? We are substandard, and have been for a while now. I defy you to name more than 2 matches this season when you have come away saying, yeah that was altogther positive. Marseille and Derby are the only two i can think of that were comprehenisvely good performances. I thought we would build on those throughout the season but it hasnt happened. The very fact that you refer to 'transition' speaks volumes about how far we havent come.

we played some **** to beat besiktas 8-0 if i remember rightly

[tsb]

I was thinking this exact same thing the other day. The only difference is due to the level of media exposure and the culture of instant gratification nowadays, managers don't get the time they should do.

[mersey86]

How long are we to accept 'being in transition' as a valid excuse? We are substandard, and have been for a while now. I defy you to name more than 2 matches this season when you have come away saying, yeah that was altogther positive. Marseille and Derby are the only two i can think of that were comprehenisvely good performances.

Well that's soft for a start. Two comprehensively good performances in a season, when no whinger has anything to go on - that has to be way above average. There have been other big wins, but people will always moan.
As the poster for this thread tells us, Ferguson needed time at Old Trafford. I remember the Kop singing "Fergie must stay" after a few years of his tenure, when things were still not improving for him. Howard Kendall of Everton in the '80s was seemingly one cup loss away from losing his job - 2 late goals in a third(?) round tie probably saved him.
They do not compare with Rafa. Look at Rafa's positives - international awareness of Liverpool once more due to Champions League success. Increasingly successful in the transfer market - his failures being players of lesser value and Morientes, those he has sold have generally been fetching good fees.
Rafa has put in place a youth system which has already seen success and promises much for the future. He has brought in Reina, Torres, Agger, Alonso, Lucas, Babel - probably none of them would have come here were it not for Rafa.
Its been a turbulent season - great start, bad patch, recovery, second bad patch. I am very afraid that the people at the top have sent the wrong messages and may have decided they want Rafa out. As a fan I am largely at their mercy. I am revolted by other fans who are making what would be a heinous decision more easy for them. Get rid of Rafa - in my opinion that would be a huge step backwards and one which will achieve nothing positive whatsoever for the club we all claim to love.

[Craig_H]

The doom mongers are really starting to get on my tits. Since when did we have the divine right to win the league every year. The end of the season is when (and the liverpool way) to make a judgement.

Even if we did finish 4th and went out in the next round of the CL there would be no reason to sack Rafa. We're still in transition and getting better all the time. The future's bright.

No one's mentioning any divine right to win the league.

We should sure as ****ing hell be CHALLENGING for it though, after all the money we've spent.

What is our objective, if not to challenge for the title??

[Ben_Itez]

Well said Mersey86. Replace 'transition' with we're constantly improving in my above post and that was what i was trying to say.

Getting rid of Rafa would achieve nothing and IMO would be nothing short of a disgrace. These days of instant gratification really, really annoy me. i mean it's not as if we havent won anything in the past couple of years is it?!?!? Draw a few games we should have won (on chances created etc and total domination) and lose two yes TWO games in the league and everyone wants the manager to go....LUDICROUS!!!!

[Ben_Itez]

No one's mentioning any divine right to win the league.

We should sure as ****ing hell be CHALLENGING for it though, after all the money we've spent.

What is our objective, if not to challenge for the title??

Well we're certainly closer to challenging for it than we were than at this stage last season. If we'd won the last two games which on balance of play and chances we should have won easily we would be challenging. There's a fine line between success and failure and sadly we are just falling short at the moment, that i do not deny. However, it's not inconceivable we could still be in the mix come the end of the season, unlikely i know, but we're certainly better than we were last season with many promising players. We're just one or two players short of really challenging IMO and getting rid of the manager would send us backwards.

[Helios Creed]

I have a theory that Rafa's aim is to create a team that is like a very-highly tuned sports car. At the moment when it works, it is brilliant. When it doesn't (because the some of the components still aren't up to it yet), it doesn't just perform below expectation and come second or third - it won't start at all or splutters mis-firing round the track. So instead of looking as though it is close to being the race winner that it is, it looks miles off the pace.

If Rafa has enough time to build and tune a team in which all the components are up to his standard (far more are now than when he first took over), we will perform week in week out at the same level as our best performances and will win the Prem.

This is what I think on good days...

[Ben_Itez]

An interesting analogy!