A Reality check for deluded fans.

[Helios Creed]

Well we're certainly closer to challenging for it than we were than at this stage last season. If we'd won the last two games which on balance of play and chances we should have won easily we would be challenging. There's a fine line between success and failure and sadly we are just falling short at the moment, that i do not deny. However, it's not inconceivable we could still be in the mix come the end of the season, unlikely i know, but we're certainly better than we were last season with many promising players. We're just one or two players short of really challenging IMO and getting rid of the manager would send us backwards.

Ayup Ben. Good to see you're in the positive boat too. (actually that should probably be car..)

[Ben_Itez]

Occasionally i'm a half full type of person. I'll make my judgement and assessment at the end of the season after we've won the FA Cup, Champions League and been pipped to the Prem by 1 point!

[Helios Creed]

Ayup Ben. Good to see you're in the positive boat too. (actually that should probably be car..)

Occasionally i'm a half full type of person. I'll make my judgement and assessment at the end of the season after we've won the FA Cup, Champions League and been pipped to the Prem by 1 point!

I think you may have boarded the delusional boat by mistake...

[Craig_H]

Well we're certainly closer to challenging for it than we were than at this stage last season. If we'd won the last two games which on balance of play and chances we should have won easily we would be challenging. There's a fine line between success and failure and sadly we are just falling short at the moment, that i do not deny. However, it's not inconceivable we could still be in the mix come the end of the season, unlikely i know, but we're certainly better than we were last season with many promising players. We're just one or two players short of really challenging IMO and getting rid of the manager would send us backwards.

Ifs and buts mate, we're not making any genuine title challenge...still.

[Jazzmaster]

Ifs and buts mate, we're not making any genuine title challenge...still.

[The Birdman]

I've never been in the 'sack Rafa' camp and I don't think I ever will be.
What good would it do to bring someone else in and start again? He is making progress and what is also worth pointing out is Chelsea finished 2nd and did well in the Champs League under Ranieri (sp) and Wenger inherited George Graham's back 5 which were the best in Europe, they had foundations to build on, Rafa's had quicksand

[Mr Nike Top]

Wouldn't we be justified in inferring from the initial post that Ferguson managed a title challenge in his second season, something Benitez has failed to do at all in four seasons? It's also hard to compare the two managers' records in Europe when you consider English clubs were banned for four years when Ferguson took over.

Leaving aside the difficulties in comparing Ferguson's start with Bentiez's, surely the fact is that Ferguson is the ONLY example of a manager who got it wrong for four years who went on to succeed. Doesn't this actually suggest that almost every manager who starts off with an unsatisfactory four years ends up as a failure overall (or gets sacked, which they probably deserve)?

I was encouraged after the 2005/6 season when we got 82 points. Since then, after a disasterous summer in the transfer market in 2006 we got nowhere near that total last year and will get nowhere near it this year. It's all very well to point out how much better the squad is than it was under Houllier, but the real problem, as yesterday's fiasco brought home, is how far we have actually declined in the last few seasons.

[red g]

Ifs and buts mate, we're not making any genuine title challenge...still.

so you were one of the ones on redcafe calling for fergusons head then

[jack sonnelle]

Ifs and buts mate, we're not making any genuine title challenge...still.

...and as the original poster said, neither did Ferguson in his first 5 years in charge. In fact, in his fourth season (Rafa is in his fourth) he broke the British transfer record in signing Pallister and Ince, and finished 14th - not first, not top 4, not even top half! Both signings were dismissed as flops before becoming an integral part of the team which won Utd's first title in 26 years.

Still, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good moan eh?

Benitez' overall record in the league, domestic cups and Europe - as well as the transfer market - compares very favourably with all the other managers of the 'big 4' during their early years in charge, with the possible exception of Mourinho who was playing by different rules given the money he had to play with.

We've lost two league games this season - making us difficult to beat is a major step in the right direction.

We cannot afford to lose this manager anytime soon. Real Madrid and Bayern Munich - both recent winners of their respective leagues - wait in the wings. How ironic (and sad) if we, approaching 18 years without the title, fail to appreciate what's under our noses whilst those watching from a distance prepare to take full advantage of our insanity.

[Craig_H]

...and as the original poster said, neither did Ferguson in his first 5 years in charge. In fact, in his fourth season (Rafa is in his fourth) he broke the British transfer record in signing Pallister and Ince, and finished 14th - not first, not top 4, not even top half! Both signings were dismissed as flops before becoming an integral part of the team which won Utd's first title in 26 years.

Still, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good moan eh?

Benitez' overall record in the league, domestic cups and Europe - as well as the transfer market - compares very favourably with all the other managers of the 'big 4' during their early years in charge, with the possible exception of Mourinho who was playing by different rules given the money he had to play with.

We've lost two league games this season - making us difficult to beat is a major step in the right direction.

We cannot afford to lose this manager anytime soon. Real Madrid and Bayern Munich - both recent winners of their respective leagues - wait in the wings. How ironic (and sad) if we, approaching 18 years without the title, fail to appreciate what's under our noses whilst those watching from a distance prepare to take full advantage of our insanity.

Why do i give a monkey's about what ferguson did 20 years ago?

It's not relevant, i want LFC to challenge for the title and i feel after the money we've spent, it's not asking that much.

Still, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good moan eh?

You seem keen to pick and choose which 'facts' are valid and which arent.

After nearly £150m and approaching 4 years, Rafa hasnt improved our league standing at all, from what Houllier achieved.

Before Rafa came in, GH had us finishing 3rd or 4th, with one 2nd place. Rafa has us finishing 3rd or 4th (without a 2nd, but with a 5th).

There's a fact for you.

[mersey86]

Leaving aside the difficulties in comparing Ferguson's start with Bentiez's (sic), surely the fact is that Ferguson is the ONLY example of a manager who got it wrong for four years who went on to succeed. See my post -re Howard Kendall. Besides, Benitez has hardly got it wrong. He has been building towards success. In his second year we achieved a points total that would on many an occasion, have been enough to win the league. This season we appeared headed in that direction until the beloved owners stepped in and slowed us down.Doesn't this actually suggest that almost every manager who starts off with an unsatisfactory four years after 14 years of next to nothing (other than 2001), two trips to the Champions League final rank as a major improvementends up as a failure overall (or gets sacked, which they probably deserve)?

[Skillz]

Why do i give a monkey's about what ferguson did 20 years ago?

It's not relevant, i want LFC to challenge for the title and i feel after the money we've spent, it's not asking that much.



You seem keen to pick and choose which 'facts' are valid and which arent.

After nearly £150m and approaching 4 years, Rafa hasnt improved our league standing at all, from what Houllier achieved.

Before Rafa came in, GH had us finishing 3rd or 4th, with one 2nd place. Rafa has us finishing 3rd or 4th (without a 2nd, but with a 5th).

There's a fact for you.

Didn't we finish fifth in 02/03?

EDIT: Just checked, we did.

Any chance you can rescind that "fact" DJ?

[jack sonnelle]

Wouldn't we be justified in inferring from the initial post that Ferguson managed a title challenge in his second season, something Benitez has failed to do at all in four seasons? It's also hard to compare the two managers' records in Europe when you consider English clubs were banned for four years when Ferguson took over.

Leaving aside the difficulties in comparing Ferguson's start with Bentiez's, surely the fact is that Ferguson is the ONLY example of a manager who got it wrong for four years who went on to succeed. Doesn't this actually suggest that almost every manager who starts off with an unsatisfactory four years ends up as a failure overall (or gets sacked, which they probably deserve)?

I was encouraged after the 2005/6 season when we got 82 points. Since then, after a disasterous summer in the transfer market in 2006 we got nowhere near that total last year and will get nowhere near it this year. It's all very well to point out how much better the squad is than it was under Houllier, but the real problem, as yesterday's fiasco brought home, is how far we have actually declined in the last few seasons.

Oh FFS!

Ferguson came as close to winning the title in his second season as Houllier did when we finished second - i.e. was never in with a shout.

Ferguson also finished 11th and 14th during his first few years and never reached a cup final (never mind won one). He's not the only manager to achieve success after being given time at the start of his stewardship either. Shankly wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes with today's fans. Howard Kendall the same at Everton during his successful stint.

I even remember being in the Kop on the final day of Bob Paisley's first season in charge. A small group of 'supporters' started chanting "Paisley Out" - thankfully they soon shut up, I like to think out of embarrassment - we finished second!

Do you know we'll get nowhere 82 points this season? Let me answer for you - no you don't. We haven't declined in the last few season's, we've improved. So much so that european giants Bayern Munich and Real Madrid want our manager. Most of the time we are ridiculously difficult to beat. The confidence that engenders within the squad will eventually lead to us winning
on a more consistent basis. And I'm convince within the next 2 seasons - if Rafa is allowed to complete what he's started - we'll have started winning the league again.

What he doesn't need right now is his own supporters turning on him in the biggest example of short sightedness in living memory.

[mersey86]

Why do i give a monkey's about what ferguson did 20 years ago?

It's not relevant, i want LFC to challenge for the title and i feel after the money we've spent, it's not asking that much.
If we cannot learn from history, then we are unlikely to make solid progress. History tells us that anything worth building takes time. Sure there are short cuts, but they require a huge influx of money (Blackburn, Chelsea). Arsenal are at a point where long-term policy is paying off. Liverpool are close.

You seem keen to pick and choose which 'facts' are valid and which arent.
So do most people. I think, if we're honest, most of us are very disappointed with recent weeks. Some of us just automatically shout for change, some determine to see it through. I think Rafa has made mistakes - I think he has learned from most of them. I think he is a good manager. I think our hopes of winning the league in the next three years lie with him.

[Craig_H]

Didn't we finish fifth in 02/03?

EDIT: Just checked, we did.

Any chance you can rescind that "fact" DJ?

Quite right actually we did. It equals Rafa's very own 5th place finish, doesnt it?

Seems the 'fact' about Rafa's league achievements being so similar to GH's was even more accurate...