For once and for all...

[Woobus]

Heh well you say that but then you have to remove Ferguson from the equation and he alone is the example many, many LFC fans give as why Rafa deserves more seasons and more money.

And if you do that then it comes to my point I mentioned earlier, that the last 8 or so years has proven that if your manager doesn't win the league in his first 3 seasons he never will.

I dont see what Ferguson has to do with how competitive different leagues are recently. It is clear you picked 20 years to prove your point and I think looking at the last 10 years would be more relevant. Surely they are two different topics?
Are you trying to say that no manager will ever win the premier league if they dont win it in there first 3 years? There has only been 2 manager in the last 2 years who would qualify for your arguement, one is a great manager who started of with a good team, and the other had unlimited funds at his disposal. You could well be right but I think it is more clutching at straws.

[Craig_H]

I think it's fair to say that in any league doing whatever gets you the most points seems to be the best way to succeed. Your conclusions from the points analysis seems to imply that Rafa's methods are wrong but he got away with them in La Liga in a way he can't do so here. The first part is totally subjective. The stats are evidence that you can't afford to drop points as much in our league, but they don't in any way demonstrate that any particular method doesn't work here.

So I agree with you 100% when you say that methods which worked in Valencia may not always translate into success over here, but I can't agree that this points analysis proves that any particular method doesn't.

It's beyond question that you can drop more points in Spain and still win the league, than you can in the PL, i think we agree on that?

Taking that point further, my argument is that in Spain, the consistent rotation of players and system, the dropping of key players for tough games and the playing of players out of position would probably not cost you the title like it does in england, because the dropping of points it causes isnt such a problem when you need 9 or 10 less points to win the title (on average).

The points analysis merely shows that you can afford to drop far more points in Spain, than in england. The problem is that Rafa does things that CAUSE you to drop points. In spain, he was still able to do this and win the league, because he still won 70 odd points.

I hope that makes sense.

[Dhav]

I've no problem generally with how rafa's strengthened the squad and he normally is able to admit when a signing has flopped.

I only wish he was equally able to accept when certain tactics and philosophies continually prove to be not working.

Have you ever thought DJS, that when he gets a better pool of players together, and is able to to bring another world class player, and he has more faith in his team stamping their authority and style of play over an opponent, then he might adopt the more suitable tactics that you want? May be he thinks these are the tactics that suit the limitations of the current players best. May be the tactics will change as the personnel does?

You think he is incapable of changing/adapting. I disagree. People were saying in 05 that he'll never get to grips with the Premier, he'll never understand it or figure it out. The next season we got our highest ever EPL pts tally.

Dont underestimate Rafa. If you were running the country in the 40s instead of Churchill, we'd probably all be speaking German now.

[bigfooty]

Did we? So you are saying this current team is inferior to the 2006 team?

Hmm. Tough one actually.

The 2005-2006 was by no means title quality but it was pretty balanced with a best line-up of:

Pepe
Finnan-Carra-Sami-Riise
Gerrard-Xabi-Momo-Kewell
Crouch-Someone

If we had been blessed with a proper striker alongside Crouch that team could well have gone close, even with a lack of depth in certain positions. Have to remember how long it took Crouch to get going that season and that all the other 3 strikers had problems.

Ok, bad choice of terms. Change "team" in my post above to "squad" or "pool of players".

I really don't think we have an ideal pool of players. We're signing a new CB today it seems, there's talk of us needing a LB, maybe a RB too, possibly a LW and RW, maybe another striker or two also to replace existing ones. That's a lot of cash and even then it supposes we get every purchase spot on.

[tomasjj]

I respond to people in the same manner which they address me. Wasnt pacman laughing at my points? Wasnt he calling them 'complete and utter bollocks' ?

I think you'll find he was. I responded in kind. You havent been abusive to me or 'ridiculed' my posts, and i likewise am not doing so to you.



It's an indication of quality within the context of that specific league, of course.

But what i'm saying is that when you take the PL and the job of winning it, success in Spain means nothing really, when it comes to the specifics of winning the PL. It's a similar thing to when a leading light in one country like Spain for example, comes to the PL and cant cut it. Morientes anyone?

It's different, both in terms of playing and managing. The mentality is different and this is a valid obstacle for Rafa IMO.

As to the first point, I just think you bring it upon yourself. But enough on that.


Anyway,

So winning La Liga is only an indication within the context of La Liga? Surely you can admit that winning other leagues are an indication of quality mangement that can have a bearing on how successful this manager will be in other countries? It can also mean nothing in regards of the PL, but it doesn't have to mean nothing. It can imo serve as an indication of quality.

So, the safe bet, if I understand you right, would be to go with a PL proved manager, right?

But the Arse didn't apply this logic when they appointed Wenger. And he is a top manager in the PL now. What had he won btw, before he was appointed? Not much I think.

The Chavs didn't apply this logic when appointing Mourinho either as he won the league twice.

This doesn't prove that all foreign managers are good, but neither does it prove that they are all ****e. One has to judge them individually.

Also one dud signing from another league, here Morientes, doesn't serve as an all-compassing, everlasting example showing that all other signings from that league is futile, Torres is the example of that. But it does show that different playing styles is a valid factor that has to be considered when appointing both managers and signing players.

But I also think Rafa has some way left to fully grasp the PL. I think he is too tactical in a league whose tempo negates many of his tactical moves, as there is a higher element of chance.

I am willing to give him this season and the next to get it right though.

Comparisms to Houlliers days, whoever made them on here, I cannot recall who or where, are imo way off the mark.

[Craig_H]

Have you ever thought DJS, that when he gets a better pool of players together, and is able to to bring another world class player, and he has more faith in his team stamping their authority and style of play over an opponent, then he might adopt the more suitable tactics that you want? May be he thinks these are the tactics that suit the limitations of the current players best. May be the tactics will change as the personnel does?

You think he is incapable of changing/adapting. I disagree. People were saying in 05 that he'll never get to grips with the Premier, he'll never understand it or figure it out. The next season we got our highest ever EPL pts tally.

Dont underestimate Rafa.

That's fine, i accept that with better players, he'll do better. My gripe though is that with the current pool of players, we arent 15 or more points worse than the league winners. But we inevitably finish that far behind. So in short, while i accept he may not have the players or squad to WIN it, i also think he should do better with what he has, than he is doing.

If you were running the country in the 40s instead of Churchill, we'd probably all be speaking German now.

Not sure why there's a need for this personal jibe at the end.

[kris90210]

I think it's beyond question that rafa is cautious and defensively minded.

As for his methods - continuous tinkering with what should be a settled side, chopping and changing the system and formation without it being necessary, playing players out of position, resting players for tricky games and then playing them for 'easy' games. There's plenty to choose from.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Its easy to sit up in an ivory tower and pass judgment after things have gone wrong - I am sure that Rafa has had good reasons behind resting players, changing formation etc. The fact is he gets it right far more than he gets it wrong.

The league has never been harder to win. Utd spent 70 million on improving a championship winning side.

But I guess what it comes down to is faith. I still believe in Rafa and what he's trying to do. I think back to when he first took over and what a mess we were in then. He's restored a lot of pride to our club. He needs time and our support.

[bigfooty]

I dont see what Ferguson has to do with how competitive different leagues are recently. It is clear you picked 20 years to prove your point and I think looking at the last 10 years would be more relevant. Surely they are two different topics?
Are you trying to say that no manager will ever win the premier league if they dont win it in there first 3 years? There has only been 2 manager in the last 2 years who would qualify for your arguement, one is a great manager who started of with a good team, and the other had unlimited funds at his disposal. You could well be right but I think it is more clutching at straws.

Sorry, I may be getting my threads mixed up. That stat I mentioned counts the four big leagues of Europe, that is to say Spain, Italy, Germany and England. Since the turn of the millenium every title in those four has been won by a manager that either won it already for the same club or had been at the club for less than 3 years with one exception - Bremen in Germany.

Each of those leagues have their own quirks and styles but that seems a pretty consistent trend when you consider it includes Rafa's success at Valencia.

[Craig_H]

As to the first point, I just think you bring it upon yourself. But enough on that.


Anyway,

So winning La Liga is only an indication within the context of La Liga? Surely you can admit that winning other leagues are an indication of quality mangement that can have a bearing on how successful this manager will be in other countries? It can also mean nothing in regards of the PL, but it doesn't have to mean nothing. It can imo serve as an indication of quality.

So, the safe bet, if I understand you right, would be to go with a PL proved manager, right?

But the Arse didn't apply this logic when they appointed Wenger. And he is a top manager in the PL now. What had he won btw, before he was appointed? Not much I think.

The Chavs didn't apply this logic when appointing Mourinho either as he won the league twice.

This doesn't prove that all foreign managers are good, but neither does it prove that they are all ****e. One has to judge them individually.

Also one dud signing from another league, here Morientes, doesn't serve as an all-compassing, everlasting example showing that all other signings from that league is futile, Torres is the example of that. But it does show that different playing styles is a valid factor that has to be considered when appointing both managers and signing players.

But I also think Rafa has some way left to fully grasp the PL. I think he is too tactical in a league whose tempo negates many of his tactical moves, as there is a higher element of chance.

I am willing to give him this season and the next to get it right though.

Comparisms to Houlliers days, whoever made them on here, I cannot recall who or where, are imo way off the mark.

Tomas, it's simple mate.

Go with a manager who not only KNOWS what methods are needed to win the PL, but is also able and willing to implement them. I dont think rafa fulfils that second criteria.

[Craig_H]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Its easy to sit up in an ivory tower and pass judgment after things have gone wrong - I am sure that Rafa has had good reasons behind resting players, changing formation etc. The fact is he gets it right far more than he gets it wrong.

The league has never been harder to win. Utd spent 70 million on improving a championship winning side.

But I guess what it comes down to is faith. I still believe in Rafa and what he's trying to do. I think back to when he first took over and what a mess we were in then. He's restored a lot of pride to our club. He needs time and our support.

You dont need hindsight to know that a consistent, settled side which plays a consistent settled system will lead to players being more comfortable and performing better.

If rafa doesnt know this without the use of hindsight, then we have huge problems.

[tomasjj]

It's beyond question that you can drop more points in Spain and still win the league, than you can in the PL, i think we agree on that?

Taking that point further, my argument is that in Spain, the consistent rotation of players and system, the dropping of key players for tough games and the playing of players out of position would probably not cost you the title like it does in england, because the dropping of points it causes isnt such a problem when you need 9 or 10 less points to win the title (on average).

The points analysis merely shows that you can afford to drop far more points in Spain, than in england. The problem is that Rafa does things that CAUSE you to drop points. In spain, he was still able to do this and win the league, because he still won 70 odd points.

I hope that makes sense.

Agree that the PL is a harder competition and you can afford to drop less points.

[Craig_H]

Agree that the PL is a harder competition and you can afford to drop less points.

Do you also agree that playing a consistent system and a largely settled side is more likely to see you win more games?

[Dhav]

Hmm. Tough one actually.

The 2005-2006 was by no means title quality but it was pretty balanced with a best line-up of:

Pepe
Finnan-Carra-Sami-Riise
Gerrard-Xabi-Momo-Kewell
Crouch-Someone

If we had been blessed with a proper striker alongside Crouch that team could well have gone close, even with a lack of depth in certain positions. Have to remember how long it took Crouch to get going that season and that all the other 3 strikers had problems.



I really don't think we have an ideal pool of players. We're signing a new CB today it seems, there's talk of us needing a LB, maybe a RB too, possibly a LW and RW, maybe another striker or two also to replace existing ones. That's a lot of cash and even then it supposes we get every purchase spot on.

Yes, fair points. Personally I think he needs/wants a couple of more top quality additions plus a coupel of sqaud players to get the pool of players that will enable him to start playing more settled line-up and settled tactics. It's been very hard to do otherwise when he's basically had to wheel and deal and feed of scraps. But I think given the right players/squad he'd be more than willing to adapt his methods to suit the EPL

[tomasjj]

Tomas, it's simple mate.

Go with a manager who not only KNOWS what methods are needed to win the PL, but is also able and willing to implement them. I dont think rafa fulfils that second criteria.

By the logic in your first part of that statement, Wenger and Mourinho, two very good managers, would never have crossed the channel.

As for the second part, I am, as you now know, willing to give Rafa more time to prove that.

[Craig_H]

By the logic in your first part of that statement, Wenger and Mourinho, two very good managers, would never have crossed the channel.

As for the second part, I am, as you now know, willing to give Rafa more time to prove that.

How are you coming to that first conclusion?

Both Wenger and Mourinho knew what was needed to win the title AND implemented it.

As for Rafa, if he hasnt sought to implement it in 3 and a half years, why do you think he'll suddenly change?

He said himself, he wont change methods that have worked for him for 7 years. So i cant see why he'd suddenly do things differently (although i do see why he SHOULD).