For once and for all...

[red g]

[QUOTE=DJS;875756]I know what you're saying but with those 3 away games at United, Chelsea and Arsenal to come, i wouldnt be surprised if we end up over 10 points adrift.

Obviously we're only speculating now and the end of the season will tell us if we're right or not, but without use of a time machine, we CAN only speculate. It's either that or nobody posts anything til the season ends.[/QUOTE]

if only you did......

[red g]

I know what you're saying but with those 3 away games at United, Chelsea and Arsenal to come, i wouldnt be surprised if we end up over 10 points adrift.

Obviously we're only speculating now and the end of the season will tell us if we're right or not, but without use of a time machine, we CAN only speculate. It's either that or nobody posts anything til the season ends.

BUT if we finish closer YOU will still be having a go at Rafa about portsmouth away, rotating and whatever else is pissing you off about rafa at the time it will just be an argument of we could have got closer

[Red_Polo]

It's beyond question that you can drop more points in Spain and still win the league, than you can in the PL, i think we agree on that?

Taking that point further, my argument is that in Spain, the consistent rotation of players and system, the dropping of key players for tough games and the playing of players out of position would probably not cost you the title like it does in england, because the dropping of points it causes isnt such a problem when you need 9 or 10 less points to win the title (on average).

The points analysis merely shows that you can afford to drop far more points in Spain, than in england. The problem is that Rafa does things that CAUSE you to drop points. In spain, he was still able to do this and win the league, because he still won 70 odd points.

I hope that makes sense.

The first sentence, yes I completely agree. My point is, the bit I've highlighed remains nothing more than your opinion; the facts you've provided neither support nor contradict it. That's why I found the whole points analysis thing a bit odd, I was under the impression you were trying to convince us some of Rafa's methods were wrong for us, something this points analysis just can't do.

[Craig_H]

The first sentence, yes I completely agree. My point is, the bit I've highlighed remains nothing more than your opinion; the facts you've provided neither support nor contradict it. That's why I found the whole points analysis thing a bit odd, I was under the impression you were trying to convince us some of Rafa's methods were wrong for us, something this points analysis just can't do.

It's only opinion that constantly changing things causes disruption, compared to playing with a settled, comfortable side?

I disagree.

[Craig_H]

I find it all laughable.

If we close the gap from last season that is progress however certain people think that isn't good enough.

God help our next manager if Rafa does go.

Hold on though, you talk of 'progress' but conveniently ignore the fact that last season, we ended up 14 points worse off than the season before.

Progress?

[wildman]

His Valencia title winning sides won the league with 77 and 75 points.

Where do you think that would leave you in the Premier League? About third is the answer.


But there aren't as many teams in La Liga so there goes that theory, :whatever:

[kris90210]

Sorry, but knowing that a settled side and formation is more likely to win games than a frequently changing side and system IS easy. It's not rocket science, keep things stable and the players get used to it and are comfortable with it - thus they perform better more often than not.

Change it all the time and you disrupt the stability - which makes things more difficult.

Yep, that's an easy concept to understand.

Ok, so Rafa is wrong and you are right? Im sure you'll forgive my skepticism...

[Craig_H]

But there aren't as many teams in La Liga so there goes that theory, :whatever:

Pardon?

La Liga has 20 teams, like the Premier League does.

:whatever: indeed...

[Craig_H]

Ok, so Rafa is wrong and you are right? Im sure you'll forgive my skepticism...

The stock kind of reply.

Answer my point about stability and disruption, or do you think changing the system and players all the time IS the optimum way to win matches?

[Red_Polo]

It's only opinion that constantly changing things causes disruption, compared to playing with a settled, comfortable side?

I disagree.

That's not what I said, and it's not the point here anyway. Your views on rotation are well known, I wasn't arguing with that one way or another. My point was that the stats you provided are meaningless in terms of the rights or wrongs of rotation.

[Dhav]

Hold on though, you talk of 'progress' but conveniently ignore the fact that last season, we ended up 14 points worse off than the season before.

Progress?

Rafa's Valencia went backwards as well, finishing 5th in 2003, 18 points off the top. Still went on to win the league the year after.

Have a little patience, faith and belief.

[Craig_H]

That's not what I said, and it's not the point here anyway. Your views on rotation are well known, I wasn't arguing with that one way or another. My point was that the stats you provided are meaningless in terms of the rights or wrongs of rotation.

What about the overall point Polo?

1) - you cant afford as many dropped points in PL (as we've agreed)
2) - chopping and changing players and systems causes disruption
3) - with consistent disruption, you lessen your chances of winning

[Ben_Itez]

I think it's fair to say that in any league doing whatever gets you the most points seems to be the best way to succeed. Your conclusions from the points analysis seems to imply that Rafa's methods are wrong but he got away with them in La Liga in a way he can't do so here. The first part is totally subjective. The stats are evidence that you can't afford to drop points as much in our league, but they don't in any way demonstrate that any particular method doesn't work here.

So I agree with you 100% when you say that methods which worked in Valencia may not always translate into success over here, but I can't agree that this points analysis proves that any particular method doesn't.

[Craig_H]

Rafa's Valencia went backwards as well, finishing 5th in 2003, 18 points off the top. Still went on to win the league the year after.

Have a little patience, faith and belief.

Yeah but why is progress praised, but backward steps arent criticised?

Hardly a consistent way of looking at things, is it?

Surely if Rafa takes credit for the good things, he must also take flak for the bad stuff?

But it seems like criticism isnt allowed.

[Dhav]

Yeah but why is progress praised, but backward steps arent criticised?

Hardly a consistent way of looking at things, is it?

Surely if Rafa takes credit for the good things, he must also take flak for the bad stuff?

But it seems like criticism isnt allowed.

Criticism is one thing, but you've charged him, convicted him and sentenced him already. Already calling for his head and wanting Mourinho in his place. You've formed your judgement already, and the season's only half-way through. With this kind of mentality, Wenger would have been sacked several times over for all those years when Arsenal udnerachieved and were nowhere.

This isn't the end of his rebuilding, the team/squad is still evolving. This team with two or three additions will be right up there, under Rafa's leadership. Have a little patience.

and btw, if the criticism/praise is unbalanced, that's because we're supporters, not journos/media. Rafa has had more than his fair share of criticism from those cunts, is it wrong to expect a bit of support from the club's fans?