For once and for all...

[Red Chilli]

fair enough but does playing Kuyt or the other 2 make us any more attacking than if we play an extra offensive player in midfield and look to feed our best striker?

had we got a second striker that was class, playing two upfront would be a must.

1 up front leaves Torres up against 2 central defenders. Easy, 1 man marks, the other cover the space behind.

2 up front at least gives them 2 strikers to mark and allows Torres more space.
That's my simplistic view of football

[kurtangle01]

Rafa said as much afterwards, after all, Kuyt and Voronin are not scoring.

Both have been very poor. After a promising start Voronin has started to look quite poor. I'm stunned at how poorly Kuyt has played. I expected him to kick on this season but in reality he's had quite a few shockers.

If Rafa remains in charge and neither start showing a bit of form will he show that ruthless side and sell them both?

[sonsofthedesert]

fair enough but does playing Kuyt or the other 2 make us any more attacking than if we play an extra offensive player in midfield and look to feed our best striker?

had we got a second striker that was class, playing two upfront would be a must.

Yeah got to say part of me would like t see Kuyt, Veronin and Crouch go. Replace them with 1 world class striker, 1 good one and give an odd game to Nemeth and babel upfront (not together).

[Craig_H]

I really think this is a watershed year for Rafa. Another failure at challenging for the title, paco's departure and the public spat with the owners. At the end of the season if he keeps his job then I believe he will take a long hard look at himself and his methods and adjust accordingly.I really believe in him and it's not blind faith. BTW DJ do you think if he appointed an Enlishman as number 2, even a former player like Gary Mac, Sammy Lee it would help in the way he approaches premiership games?

It depends how much input he let them have and how much he listened to them. Normally i'd say do your own thing, dont listen to them, but Rafa's own thing just isnt working.

[kopdan]

1 up front leaves Torres up against 2 central defenders. Easy, 1 man marks, the other cover the space behind.

2 up front at least gives them 2 strikers to mark and allows Torres more space.
That's my simplistic view of football

yet he caused havoc on his own in my opinion

[KK07]

In thery yes but Mascher was playing further up the pitch than Gerrard for most of the game, then Mascher was taken off.

Suerly that can't be blamed on Rafa,if Gerrard wandered or the game took him to places on the field that he wasn't meant to play in?

Gerrard will wander,mainly becasue he tries to cover every blade of grass and back up evey position,maybe Rafa is to blame for playing the most dynamic player we have and expecting him to not be so dynamic!

[Morph]

I posted this on the other thread, but since so many people use the Valencia example, i'll give it its own thread so that people can either agree or disagree and explain why they disagree...hopefully without abuse

It's obviously about why i dont think Rafa's title wins in Spain mean anything with regards to proving he can win the Premier League...



I dont see why people cant grasp that it's different.

His Valencia title winning sides won the league with 77 and 75 points.

Where do you think that would leave you in the Premier League? About third is the answer.

The difference when he was at Valencia, was that you probably COULD afford to draw quite a few games that you're expected to win. He could probably afford to draw at home to La Liga's equivalents to Brum, Wigan and Spurs. It doesnt work that way here.

Even last season, La Liga was won by 76 points. That's all. 76. The season before it was 82 (and Barca won it by 12 points, meaning a tally in the early 70s would've still won it).

Before that, it was 84. This was the highest points tally recorded in La Liga since 1997.

In La Liga, they only started giving 3 points for a win from the 1995-1996 season...and they only dropped down to 20 league clubs (and 38 league games) from 1997-1998. So i'll use 1997-1998 upto 2006-2007 for my example. 10 years worth.

During this time period, the average total points tally for the league champions in spain is 77.4 points.

During the same period in the Premier League, the average total points tally for the leeague champions is 86.3 points.

So that's a difference of basically 9 points.

During those 10 years, the highest tally for La Liga champions was 84, achieved by Barcelona in 2004-2005.

84 points would only have won you the Premier League in four out of those 10 years.

In 1999-2000, Deportivo won La Liga with just 69 points.

During the whole history of the Premier League, 69 points would only once have seen a side finish above 3rd...and that's only one solitary season. In all the other seasons, 69 points would've got you a 3rd or 4th placed finish.


Now do you see why Rafa's methodology that won him La Liga is meaningless here? Because you need to achieve far more to win the Premier League than you do to win La Liga.

If someone can argue my point, then please do so.

I've backed this up with facts and statistics. If someone can dispute it doing the same thing, then fair play.

it's a decent post and certainly indicates how the PL is tougher to win than La Liga and i've been thinking about it recently but i'm not sure what your trying to prove with your point.

To me and maybe this is because i'm a glass half full kinda guy, the two guys who regularly win the prem are also the longest serving prem managers, Mourinho did it sure but i'm still of the belief he wouldn't have had the same success without all the money he had. So this suggests to me that we need to give rafa another year or two. Doesn't make sense to me to go chopping and changing.

I mean seriously we've lost 2 games so far this season, the away record has been good, and if it weren't for our **** of a home record which is out of character with previous seasons then we'd be right in the mix.

I mentioned in another thread that I think we're maybe 2/3 signings max from as complete a squad as you're going to get. Assuming the CB and LB we've been linked with are good enough to come into the first team when needed. Then imo we need a top notch striker and 1-2 top wingers, depending on how Babel progresses. If we can sort this in the summer then we've no excuses next season if we don't challenge, then maybe it will be time for Rafa to move on, but i've always thought Rafa should be given 5 yrs and I still believe that.

[bazza76]

Both have been very poor. After a promising start Voronin has started to look quite poor. I'm stunned at how poorly Kuyt has played. I expected him to kick on this season but in reality he's had quite a few shockers.

If Rafa remains in charge and neither start showing a bit of form will he show that ruthless side and sell them both?

He will have no choice in fairness, Kuyt would need to be improving fairly rapidly, even Rafa must see his lack of class infront of goal.

[blacky]

Christ bazza, it was simple enough mate. I meant if someone can present a different point of view or one that shows i'm wrong in my assessment, then by all means...

Which League is harder to Win? The premiership because you need more points or La Liga because the standard is higher. By saying that I mean the teams outside the top 4 in spain are far superior than the teams outside the top 4 in England. I think the top 4 teams in England are stronger than in Spain BTW.

[KK07]

it's a decent post and certainly indicates how the PL is tougher to win than La Liga and i've been thinking about it recently but i'm not sure what your trying to prove with your point.

To me and maybe this is because i'm a glass half full kinda guy, the two guys who regularly win the prem are also the longest serving prem managers, Mourinho did it sure but i'm still of the belief he wouldn't have had the same success without all the money he had. So this suggests to me that we need to give rafa another year or two. Doesn't make sense to me to go chopping and changing.

I mean seriously we've lost 2 games so far this season, the away record has been good, and if it weren't for our **** of a home record which is out of character with previous seasons then we'd be right in the mix.

I mentioned in another thread that I think we're maybe 2/3 signings max from as complete a squad as you're going to get. Assuming the CB and LB we've been linked with are good enough to come into the first team when needed. Then imo we need a top notch striker and 1-2 top wingers, depending on how Babel progresses. If we can sort this in the summer then we've no excuses next season if we don't challenge, then maybe it will be time for Rafa to move on, but i've always thought Rafa should be given 5 yrs and I still believe that.

Preaching to the converted brother,I've been saying a striker,winger and defender for weeks now,top class mind you.

[sonsofthedesert]

Suerly that can't be blamed on Rafa,if Gerrard wandered or the game took him to places on the field that he wasn't meant to play in?

Gerrard will wander,mainly becasue he tries to cover every blade of grass and back up evey position,maybe Rafa is to blame for playing the most dynamic player we have and expecting him to not be so dynamic!

I'm not saying Rafa is to blame for everyting, I personally want him to stay and get 3 quality players in the summer. I would question though weather Rafa did want him upfront with Torres as I am sure at half time Rfaf could of had a chat with him and made sure he was upfront, but it didn't change so I can only assume he didn't want him there.

[Red Chilli]

I see Mourinho's spending power as a short cut to success.

He could have achieved the same thing with the same money (89 million)spread over 3 seasons, but Roman demanded instant success and Mourinho delivered.
Takes a lot to achieve that in my book, nothing but success will do, off you go.

[KK07]

He will have no choice in fairness, Kuyt would need to be improving fairly rapidly, even Rafa must see his lack of class infront of goal.

Kuyt looks finsihed as a player Baz mate.

No confidence left in the guy and no talent.

[KK07]

I'm not saying Rafa is to blame for everyting, I personally want him to stay and get 3 quality players in the summer. I would question though weather Rafa did want him upfront with Torres as I am sure at half time Rfaf could of had a chat with him and made sure he was upfront, but it didn't change so I can only assume he didn't want him there.

Maybe fella,but I saw Rafa on the touch-line and how animated he was,he wanted that win probably more then you or I.

[sonsofthedesert]

it's a decent post and certainly indicates how the PL is tougher to win than La Liga and i've been thinking about it recently but i'm not sure what your trying to prove with your point.

To me and maybe this is because i'm a glass half full kinda guy, the two guys who regularly win the prem are also the longest serving prem managers, Mourinho did it sure but i'm still of the belief he wouldn't have had the same success without all the money he had. So this suggests to me that we need to give rafa another year or two. Doesn't make sense to me to go chopping and changing.

I mean seriously we've lost 2 games so far this season, the away record has been good, and if it weren't for our **** of a home record which is out of character with previous seasons then we'd be right in the mix.

I mentioned in another thread that I think we're maybe 2/3 signings max from as complete a squad as you're going to get. Assuming the CB and LB we've been linked with are good enough to come into the first team when needed. Then imo we need a top notch striker and 1-2 top wingers, depending on how Babel progresses. If we can sort this in the summer then we've no excuses next season if we don't challenge, then maybe it will be time for Rafa to move on, but i've always thought Rafa should be given 5 yrs and I still believe that.

Spot on mate. Another top class striker would also allow Babel and Nemeth to get a couple of games upfront. Babel as he looks like he could be the business there and Nemeth to blood him in the PL (if he has a good year this year in reserves).