For once and for all...

[Craig_H]

Comparing the points tally required to win the Premiership and La Liga is totally irrelevant in my opinion. They are totally different competitions! The thing I (and I think most people) take from Benitez winning La Liga with Valencia is that he was able to finish above two of the best sides in the world with limited resources twice in 3 years.

The relevance is that by managing in a league where there's less of a need to WIN games (as opposed to not losing them) and where dropping points frequently is affordable, it's possible that a manager's mentality becomes too influenced by those things and if he then goes to a league where there's more of a need to win games and dropping points is more costly, he is inclined to struggle.

[Craig_H]

So are you saying you would have sacked Wenger at the end of last season? No trophies since 2005, two successive 4th placed finished, ending up miles behind the champions?

How's Wenger comparable? He won the double in his first season and has proved he can win the Premier league.

[bigfooty]

So are you saying you would have sacked Wenger at the end of last season? No trophies since 2005, two successive 4th placed finished, ending up miles behind the champions?

No. It's clear that Arsenal were a team rebuilding and considering what Wenger has done for the club in terms of revolutionising it, and winning domestic titles including one season unbeaten, he deserves the time he's had. I am surprised at how it has come together for them this season, I expected the loss of Henry to take a lot longer to overcome, and Wenger deserves all the credit for that.

They are not the finished article but they are not far off and the squad they have has been put together on a shoe-string. We will never be Arsenal but we have our own unique talents through the core of the side, only to be wasting them in ridiculous formations that have seen us stalling badly over the last 1.5 seasons.

[Pacman]

This whole Rafa and la liga stuff is a joke.

So by some peoples opinion on here only Fergie, Wenger and Mourinhio are capable of winning the PL

This country.

[Pacman]

No. It's clear that Arsenal were a team rebuilding and considering what Wenger has done for the club in terms of revolutionising it, and winning domestic titles including one season unbeaten, he deserves the time he's had. I am surprised at how it has come together for them this season, I expected the loss of Henry to take a lot longer to overcome, and Wenger deserves all the credit for that.

They are not the finished article but they are not far off and the squad they have has been put together on a shoe-string. We will never be Arsenal but we have our own unique talents through the core of the side, only to be wasting them in ridiculous formations that have seen us stalling badly over the last 1.5 seasons.

So you're saying Rafa hasn't been re building since he took over from Ged then?

[Craig_H]

I don't get the validity of this whole points analysis thing. I'm sure anybody on this forum would agree that different approaches work better in different leagues, but as far as I can tell the points totals of their respective champions have nothing to do with it. You could say it's evidence that our league is harder to win (and even that's not a logical conclusion of the points analysis), but in terms of the difference in methodology required it tells us absolutely nothing. The only thing I think it actually proves is that there is a greater difference in the quality of the top and bottom teams in our league than there is in La Liga.

So you dont think that by being used to only needing 70 odd points, rafa's mentality is more cautious than he can afford it to be, if he wants to win the PL?

When Rafa himself says "I'm not going to change something which has worked for 7 years", does that not say anything to you?

You dont even consider the possibility that he feels the mentality worked so well in Spain that he doesnt need to change anything to be as successful here?

Ultimately though, the point is that when people say "But he proved it in Spain with Valencia", this is totally meaningless in the contexts of a discussion about whether he can win the PL or not.

[Craig_H]

This whole Rafa and la liga stuff is a joke.

So by some peoples opinion on here only Fergie, Wenger and Mourinhio are capable of winning the PL

This country.

Who's said that then pacman?

[Dhav]

How's Wenger comparable? He won the double in his first season and has proved he can win the Premier league.

Kenny Dalglish has proven he can win the Premier League - shall we sack Rafa and get him back?

And Wenger, comparatively speaking, took over a much better team than Rafa did, yet Rafa still won the CL in his first season.

[Craig_H]

Kenny Dalglish ahs proven he can win the Premier League - shall we get him back?

You're making a silly point, it's obvious that Wenger, as a CURRENTLY successful manager and winner of the league in the recent era, with the club he is still currently working at, is a more relevant and valid example of someone who's chances of winning the league title are very realistic, compared to someone who hasnt worked in the PL for a decade.

Wenger had sustained success and challenged for the title more or less every season, as opposed to winning it once and then moving on.

[kris90210]

The relevance is that by managing in a league where there's less of a need to WIN games (as opposed to not losing them) and where dropping points frequently is affordable, it's possible that a manager's mentality becomes too influenced by those things and if he then goes to a league where there's more of a need to win games and dropping points is more costly, he is inclined to struggle.

Ok, so thats your theory. Fair enough. I dont agree. I dont think Rafa does go out not to lose. Although I think perhaps he has a bit too much faith in certain players from time to time! But then all managers are the same.

Why did you give me just half an answer? If Im to dispute your points you need to be more specific about Rafa's "methods" - the ones that you think are causing us to drop points.

[bigfooty]

So you're saying Rafa hasn't been re building since he took over from Ged then?

He was rebuilding but I think the Summer of 2006 saw him losing his way, a la Ged in 2002. Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant, Gonzalez, Aurelio and Paletta have done nothing for the club really in terms of making us into a force in the Premier League.

Of course the addition of Torres to the squad is a significant one but then he cost more than Houllier or any manager before him got in any single transfer window so it has to be kept in perspective.

I'm not wholly won over by Babel at this point, he and Lucas seem like wise investments but I have to question the validity of investing in the future when your focus should be winning a trophy in the present.

Ferguson was kept on a relatively tight leash by the Glazers but as soon as he won the title the money started flowing through.

[Pacman]

Who's said that then pacman?

You are saying Rafa doesn't have the right mentality to win the PL.

We say that he does you just need to look at the 2 league titles he won in Spain.

You counter that by saying he only won the league titles with 70 odd points not the usual 80 odd that it takes to win the PL.

So by your theory only managers who have managed to win their league in the respective countries they have worked in by getting over 80 points for their clubs are capable of winning the PL?

I put it to you that you are talking complete and utter bollocks.

[Craig_H]

Ok, so thats your theory. Fair enough. I dont agree. I dont think Rafa does go out not to lose. Although I think perhaps he has a bit too much faith in certain players from time to time! But then all managers are the same.

Why did you give me just half an answer? If Im to dispute your points you need to be more specific about Rafa's "methods" - the ones that you think are causing us to drop points.

I think it's beyond question that rafa is cautious and defensively minded.

As for his methods - continuous tinkering with what should be a settled side, chopping and changing the system and formation without it being necessary, playing players out of position, resting players for tricky games and then playing them for 'easy' games. There's plenty to choose from.

[Dhav]

So you dont think that by being used to only needing 70 odd points, rafa's mentality is more cautious than he can afford it to be, if he wants to win the PL?

When Rafa himself says "I'm not going to change something which has worked for 7 years", does that not say anything to you?

You dont even consider the possibility that he feels the mentality worked so well in Spain that he doesnt need to change anything to be as successful here?

Ultimately though, the point is that when people say "But he proved it in Spain with Valencia", this is totally meaningless in the contexts of a discussion about whether he can win the PL or not.

Look, Rafa won La Liga in Spain with Valencia. Rafa won the UEFA Cup with Valencia. Rafa won the Champions League with Liverpool. Rafa won the FA Cup with Liverpool. He also got Liverpool's highest EPL points tally, a tally that was higher than either of those acheived in Valencia's title wins. What that proves to me is that Rafa knows how set up a team to beat his rivals, excel and win a given competition, whether that competition be in Spain, England, Europe or Timbuktoo. So Rafa winning La Liga is not irrelevant. If he hasn;t got it completely right in the EPL yet, it doesn't mean he never will.

[Manofthebog]

Anyone else's life ebbing away?