For once and for all...

[bigfooty]

So by your theory only managers who have managed to win their league in the respective countries they have worked in by getting over 80 points for their clubs are capable of winning the PL?

I put it to you that you are talking complete and utter bollocks.

No. His point is that winning leagues in different countries requires different approaches. What works in Spain doesn't work here, clearly, because you need to win on average 3 more matches to take the Premiership. That means you need to turn some of those 0-0 or 1-1 draws into 1-0 or 2-1 victories.

He, like others, questions in Rafa really understands this. It is a perfectly valid point when you see him going 4-5-1 at home against a team like Wigan, experimenting with Crouch as a winger against Reading or keeping Torres on the bench early in the season.

[Craig_H]

You are saying Rafa doesn't have the right mentality to win the PL.

We say that he does you just need to look at the 2 league titles he won in Spain.

You counter that by saying he only won the league titles with 70 odd points not the usual 80 odd that it takes to win the PL.

So by your theory only managers who have managed to win their league in the respective countries they have worked in by getting over 80 points for their clubs are capable of winning the PL?

I put it to you that you are talking complete and utter bollocks.

No, i'm not saying only managers who have won leagues by getting over 80 points can win the PL. I'm saying managers who insist on using the same methods that only tend to get you 70 odd points cant win the PL.

If rafa was willing to accept that you need to do things differently to win the PL - and then adapt his methods, he'd most probably win it. But he doesnt seem willing or able to adapt them. If he carries on in the same way, then no, i dont think he can win it.

As for complete and utter bollocks:

You are saying Rafa doesn't have the right mentality to win the PL.

We say that he does you just need to look at the 2 league titles he won in Spain.

Brilliant, that one...

"Look at the titles he won in SPAIN. That proves he can win the title in ENGLAND"

What next? I once wrote a letter, so that proves i can write a novel? Classic.

[Pacman]

He was rebuilding but I think the Summer of 2006 saw him losing his way, a la Ged in 2002. Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant, Gonzalez, Aurelio and Paletta have done nothing for the club really in terms of making us into a force in the Premier League.

Of course the addition of Torres to the squad is a significant one but then he cost more than Houllier or any manager before him got in any single transfer window so it has to be kept in perspective.

I'm not wholly won over by Babel at this point, he and Lucas seem like wise investments but I have to question the validity of investing in the future when your focus should be winning a trophy in the present.

Ferguson was kept on a relatively tight leash by the Glazers but as soon as he won the title the money started flowing through.

My argument would be that Rafa identified where the squad needed strengthening and bought what he thought were the best options with the money available.

We made money on Bellamy, Didn't lose out on Gonzo, Aurellio was a free and is still good enough for the first team however injuries have restricted this and Paletta was a kid that couldn't cut the mustard every manager buys kids that end up leaving because they aren't good enough.

[Craig_H]

Look, Rafa won La Liga in Spain with Valencia. Rafa won the UEFA Cup with Valencia. Rafa won the Champions League with Liverpool. Rafa won the FA Cup with Liverpool. He also got Liverpool's highest EPL points tally, a tally that was higher than either of those acheived in Valencia's title wins. What that proves to me is that Rafa knows how set up a team to beat his rivals, excel and win a given competition, whether that competition be in Spain, England, Europe or Timbuktoo. So Rafa winning La Liga is not irrelevant. If he hasn;t got it completely right in the EPL yet, it doesn't mean he never will.

Well it'll be four years without him having come close.

Is he failing deliberately then?

Or more realistically, maybe he just isnt upto it...

[Dhav]

You're making a silly point, it's obvious that Wenger, as a CURRENTLY successful manager and winner of the league in the recent era, with the club he is still currently working at, is a more relevant and valid example of someone who's chances of winning the league title are very realistic, compared to someone who hasnt worked in the PL for a decade.

Wenger had sustained success and challenged for the title more or less every season, as opposed to winning it once and then moving on.

I'm making a silly point? You're the one that said we need someone with pedigre who's won the EPL, but winning La Liga is irrelevant. You said Rafa is used to getting 75pts and 77 to win the league. Well he's already got 82 pts for Liverpool.

Nonsense re Wenger also. They did not challenge in 2000,2001,2006,2007, ie nearly half the years he's been here.

[Craig_H]

No. His point is that winning leagues in different countries requires different approaches. What works in Spain doesn't work here, clearly, because you need to win on average 3 more matches to take the Premiership. That means you need to turn some of those 0-0 or 1-1 draws into 1-0 or 2-1 victories.

He, like others, questions in Rafa really understands this. It is a perfectly valid point when you see him going 4-5-1 at home against a team like Wigan, experimenting with Crouch as a winger against Reading or keeping Torres on the bench early in the season.

I honestly dont think it's anything radical or even complicated that i'm saying, you certainly understand where i'm coming from and are able to identify examples to back it up. Others are struggling to understand it and it's odd, because it's a fairly obvious point.

[Pacman]

No, i'm not saying only managers who have won leagues by getting over 80 points can win the PL. I'm saying managers who insist on using the same methods that only tend to get you 70 odd points cant win the PL.

If rafa was willing to accept that you need to do things differently to win the PL - and then adapt his methods, he'd most probably win it. But he doesnt seem willing or able to adapt them. If he carries on in the same way, then no, i dont think he can win it.

As for complete and utter bollocks:





Brilliant, that one...

"Look at the titles he won in SPAIN. That proves he can win the title in ENGLAND"

What next? I once wrote a letter, so that proves i can write a novel? Classic.

Parry stated that the reason we got Rafa as manager is because he had a proven track record of winning trophies however this has no bearing in your mind because he didn't manage to get 80 points when he won these trophies.

[Craig_H]

I'm making a silly point? You're the one that said we need someone with pedigre who's won the EPL, but winning La Liga is irrelevant. You said Rafa is used to getting 75pts and 77 to win the league. Well he's already got 82 pts for Liverpool.

Nonsense re Wenger also. They did not challenge in 2000,2001,2005,2006, ie nearly half the years he's been here.

But dont you see, 82 points isnt going to come close. Why cant you comprehend that?

[johnp]

So you dont think that by being used to only needing 70 odd points, rafa's mentality is more cautious than he can afford it to be, if he wants to win the PL?

When Rafa himself says "I'm not going to change something which has worked for 7 years", does that not say anything to you?

You dont even consider the possibility that he feels the mentality worked so well in Spain that he doesnt need to change anything to be as successful here?

Ultimately though, the point is that when people say "But he proved it in Spain with Valencia", this is totally meaningless in the contexts of a discussion about whether he can win the PL or not.

But he got us 80-something points in 2005/2006. It didn't win us the league, but do you really think that he still thinks that 70 is enough? I'll give him more credit than that.

[Craig_H]

Parry stated that the reason we got Rafa as manager is because he had a proven track record of winning trophies however this has no bearing in your mind because he didn't manage to get 80 points when he won these trophies.

Kinell, so winning one trophy is just the same as winning others?

Winning La Liga is an identical task to winning the PL?

[tomasjj]

Why do you have to ridicule some of the posters disagreeing with you? And you wonder why people get fed up with your antics...

As to the point:


I agree that success in another country doesn't automatically mean success in another, but nevertheless, it is an indication of quality if the league, here La Liga, is a strong and competitive one. Is that a fair assumption?

[Craig_H]

But he got us 80-something points in 2005/2006. It didn't win us the league, but do you really think that he still thinks that 70 is enough? I'll give him more credit than that.

No, he doesnt think 70 is enough, but the catious nature is built into his ethos and the very fact that his record tally is still 3 wins short of what's needed in most seasons says it all.

I'm sure he realises that he needs about 90 to win the PL - but does he have the mentality or dare i say it, the nerve, to throw caution to the wind sometimes to actually and comprehensively WIN a match? I'd argue not. We havent seen evidence of it frequently enough.

[The Erectile Banana]

Anyone else's life ebbing away?

I think mine is.

Slowly but surely.

[bigfooty]

My argument would be that Rafa identified where the squad needed strengthening and bought what he thought were the best options with the money available.

We made money on Bellamy, Didn't lose out on Gonzo, Aurellio was a free and is still good enough for the first team however injuries have restricted this and Paletta was a kid that couldn't cut the mustard every manager buys kids that end up leaving because they aren't good enough.

Financially it was not a disaster, I give you that, but considering it came off a season as strong as the 2005-2006 was in terms of points, finishing with 9 straight league wins and the FA Cup it really was a kick in the nads in terms of the club's momentum.

Houllier was in the exact same situation at the end of 2002. Of our final 15 league fixtures we won 13. We beat Utd away, Chelsea at home. Put 11 goals past Ipswich over 2 games. Spanked Leeds 4-0. Ended the season with 80 points and full of hope. Then came Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou...

[Pacman]

Kinell, so winning one trophy is just the same as winning others?

Winning La Liga is an identical task to winning the PL?

It's a non argument then.

So you only want a manager who has won the PL - Mourinho - ****ing hell mate it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out your agenda here.

You are saying any manager that has won a league title or 2 in another league isn't capable of winning the PL because the PL doesn't compare to those other leagues.

it's laughable. In fact I will have a little laugh