For once and for all...

[bigfooty]

Nonsense re Wenger also. They did not challenge in 2000,2001,2006,2007, ie nearly half the years he's been here.

Could that possibly be because he was rebuilding the team during those seasons? In the first case going from the likes of Adams, Dixon, Anelka et al to Pires, Henry and Freddy? Then from those to the current crop?

Wouldn't it be really **** if we only challenged for the title half the seasons Houllier and Rafa had been in charge...

[johnp]

It's a non argument then.

So you only want a manager who has won the PL - Mourinho - ****ing hell mate it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out your agenda here.

You are saying any manager that has won a league title or 2 in another league isn't capable of winning the PL because the PL doesn't compare to those other leagues.

it's laughable. In fact I will have a little laugh

In fact, whats to say that Mourinho would win it with Liverpool?

[Craig_H]

Why do you have to ridicule some of the posters disagreeing with you? And you wonder why people get fed up with your antics...

As to the point:


I agree that success in another country doesn't automatically mean success in another, but nevertheless, it is an indication of quality if the league, here La Liga, is a strong and competitive one. Is that a fair assumption?

I respond to people in the same manner which they address me. Wasnt pacman laughing at my points? Wasnt he calling them 'complete and utter bollocks' ?

I think you'll find he was. I responded in kind. You havent been abusive to me or 'ridiculed' my posts, and i likewise am not doing so to you.

I agree that success in another country doesn't automatically mean success in another, but nevertheless, it is an indication of quality if the league, here La Liga, is a strong and competitive one. Is that a fair assumption?

It's an indication of quality within the context of that specific league, of course.

But what i'm saying is that when you take the PL and the job of winning it, success in Spain means nothing really, when it comes to the specifics of winning the PL. It's a similar thing to when a leading light in one country like Spain for example, comes to the PL and cant cut it. Morientes anyone?

It's different, both in terms of playing and managing. The mentality is different and this is a valid obstacle for Rafa IMO.

[Dhav]

But dont you see, 82 points isnt going to come close. Why cant you comprehend that?

Do you think the team he got us 82 pts with was his ideal team? DO you think that if given time, and he got his ideal team togetehr, it would only be capable of 82 pts? If you think that then I fear for you. He got 82 pts after having only 4 transfer windows (with money being tight) to wheel and deal to revamp the dross Houllier left us with, and he still got us our highest EPL point tally. Why cant you comprehend that?

[Craig_H]

Could that possibly be because he was rebuilding the team during those seasons? In the first case going from the likes of Adams, Dixon, Anelka et al to Pires, Henry and Freddy? Then from those to the current crop?

Wouldn't it be really **** if we only challenged for the title half the seasons Houllier and Rafa had been in charge...

Exactly.

At least Wenger HAS won it and challenged for it a few times.

We havent...for 18 years.

Quite how people can take a period of 'failure' for Wenger and liken it to simply NEVER challenging for the title during the entire management tenure (of Rafa or indeed GH), is beyond me.

[Craig_H]

Do you think the team he got us 82 pts with was his ideal team? DO you think that if given time, and he got his ideal team togetehr, it would only be capable of 82 pts? If you think that then I fear for you. He got 82 pts after having only 4 transfer windows (with money being tight) to wheel and deal to revamp the dross Houllier left us with, and he still got us our highest EPL point tally. Whay cant you comprehend that?

I think that his cautious approach will mean more games are drawn that should be won (and more games are lost than shouldnt be lost) than can be afforded, to win the PL title.

After only 4 transfer windows, he got 82 points. How about when he had an extra couple of windows and then got less points?

[Pacman]

Financially it was not a disaster, I give you that, but considering it came off a season as strong as the 2005-2006 was in terms of points, finishing with 9 straight league wins and the FA Cup it really was a kick in the nads in terms of the club's momentum.

Houllier was in the exact same situation at the end of 2002. Of our final 15 league fixtures we won 13. We beat Utd away, Chelsea at home. Put 11 goals past Ipswich over 2 games. Spanked Leeds 4-0. Ended the season with 80 points and full of hope. Then came Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou...

I think the big difference is that Houllier couldn't see the error of his ways where as Rafa is prepared to ship these players out as soon as he realises they aren't good enough or don't have the right mentality.

You have got to remember how poor our squad was when Rafa took over and how many players he need to sell and buy. Not everyone is going to come off but if you look at the likes of Reina, Agger, Torres, Arbeloa, Yossi, Alonso, Mascher etc these are players that would walk into most top teams.

[Pacman]

Do you think the team he got us 82 pts with was his ideal team? DO you think that if given time, and he got his ideal team togetehr, it would only be capable of 82 pts? If you think that then I fear for you. He got 82 pts after having only 4 transfer windows (with money being tight) to wheel and deal to revamp the dross Houllier left us with, and he still got us our highest EPL point tally. Why cant you comprehend that?

Hurrah a good post.

[Craig_H]

I think the big difference is that Houllier couldn't see the error of his ways where as Rafa is prepared to ship these players out as soon as he realises they aren't good enough or don't have the right mentality.

You have got to remember how poor our squad was when Rafa took over and how many players he need to sell and buy. Not everyone is going to come off but if you look at the likes of Reina, Agger, Torres, Arbeloa, Yossi, Alonso, Mascher etc these are players that would walk into most top teams.

I've no problem generally with how rafa's strengthened the squad and he normally is able to admit when a signing has flopped.

I only wish he was equally able to accept when certain tactics and philosophies continually prove to be not working.

[Craig_H]

Hurrah a good post.

Was it?

It implies that each transfer window gives Rafa an extra opportunity to improve more. Except, after that 82 point season, the extra transfer windows came along and we....went backwards.

[bigfooty]

Do you think the team he got us 82 pts with was his ideal team? DO you think that if given time, and he got his ideal team togetehr, it would only be capable of 82 pts? If you think that then I fear for you. He got 82 pts after having only 4 transfer windows (with money being tight) to wheel and deal to revamp the dross Houllier left us with, and he still got us our highest EPL point tally. Why cant you comprehend that?

He's had more money than Houllier but we must surely be some way off his ideal team. And, to be fair, he doesn't have an ideal team. He has ideal teams for certain opponents, which doesn't always work out ideally.

[Dhav]

Was it?

It implies that each transfer window gives Rafa an extra opportunity to improve more. Except, after that 82 point season, the extra transfer windows came along and we....went backwards.

Did we? So you are saying this current team is inferior to the 2006 team?

[Dhav]

He's had more money than Houllier but we must surely be some way off his ideal team. And, to be fair, he doesn't have an ideal team. He has ideal teams for certain opponents, which doesn't always work out ideally.

Ok, bad choice of terms. Change "team" in my post above to "squad" or "pool of players".

[Red_Polo]

So you dont think that by being used to only needing 70 odd points, rafa's mentality is more cautious than he can afford it to be, if he wants to win the PL?

When Rafa himself says "I'm not going to change something which has worked for 7 years", does that not say anything to you?

You dont even consider the possibility that he feels the mentality worked so well in Spain that he doesnt need to change anything to be as successful here?

Ultimately though, the point is that when people say "But he proved it in Spain with Valencia", this is totally meaningless in the contexts of a discussion about whether he can win the PL or not.

I think it's fair to say that in any league doing whatever gets you the most points seems to be the best way to succeed. Your conclusions from the points analysis seems to imply that Rafa's methods are wrong but he got away with them in La Liga in a way he can't do so here. The first part is totally subjective. The stats are evidence that you can't afford to drop points as much in our league, but they don't in any way demonstrate that any particular method doesn't work here.

So I agree with you 100% when you say that methods which worked in Valencia may not always translate into success over here, but I can't agree that this points analysis proves that any particular method doesn't.

[Craig_H]

Did we? So you are saying this current team is inferior to the 2006 team?

How much does it matter that the current team is better, if he cant get better points tallies out of them? Seriously?

His squad building is fine with me. He doesnt get the best out of what he has though.