For once and for all...

[Woobus]

I'm not wholly won over by Babel at this point, he and Lucas seem like wise investments but I have to question the validity of investing in the future when your focus should be winning a trophy in the present.

In one post you praise Wenger for building for the future then shot down Rafa for doing the same. I can understand it is easier for Arsenal fans to accept due to winning the league in recent times. Instead of those two who would you have spent the money on, and do you think we would have been guaranteed success?

[Dhav]

That's fine, i accept that with better players, he'll do better. My gripe though is that with the current pool of players, we arent 15 or more points worse than the league winners. But we inevitably finish that far behind. So in short, while i accept he may not have the players or squad to WIN it, i also think he should do better with what he has, than he is doing.





Not sure why there's a need for this personal jibe at the end.

I see what you're saying about him getting more out of the players at his disposal. Fair enough point to argue. We're going off at the deep end, judging him mid-season. We need to see how we end up at the end before judging him further. But it's a big jump saying he should be getting more out of the players currently (when we all know Rafa's teams come into their own in the 2nd part of the season and he plays more settled teams/tactics) to saying he can never win the EPL and his record proves it.

Apologies for the personal jibe, my point is you've given up on Rafa too easily.

[tomasjj]

Do you also agree that playing a consistent system and a largely settled side is more likely to see you win more games?

Partially.


Higher tempo calls for more cohesion on the pitch. This means you cannot chop and change and get away with it as easily as in Spain or Italy for instance.

Alas, I think, not certain, that Manu and Arse also rotate to an extent. How much compared to us, I am not sure. Rotation is something no one mentions when you are winning, but is brought when you are losing.

There is an enormous amount of traditionalists in this country when it comes to football, use man marking, play 442, play your best 11 and a lot of other stuff. They love to stick the boot in when you concede a goal from a set piece, keeping shut when it actually becomes clear that you have the best defensive record in the league and rarely concede from set pieces compared to teams with man marking... but I digress and wander off here...

That said, I don't think rotation is the main reason for our players wasting chance after chance against City, Brum, Wigan and the like. But I do think tha t the rotation can be a factor that affects the players confidence, whether or not they should be professional enough to handle that is another matter.

[tomasjj]

How are you coming to that first conclusion?

Both Wenger and Mourinho knew what was needed to win the title AND implemented it.

As for Rafa, if he hasnt sought to implement it in 3 and a half years, why do you think he'll suddenly change?

He said himself, he wont change methods that have worked for him for 7 years. So i cant see why he'd suddenly do things differently (although i do see why he SHOULD).

But how could Arsenal and Chelsea have known this for sure when they appointed them?? They couldn't! They had to go by their previous records from outside the PL.



Also, I think saying Rafa is unwilling to learn and develop is not giving the man credit. And as I say, I am willing to leave it until the end of next season.

[Craig_H]

I see what you're saying about him getting more out of the players at his disposal. Fair enough point to argue. We're going off at the deep end, judging him mid-season. We need to see how we end up at the end before judging him further. But it's a big jump saying he should be getting more out of the players currently (when we all know Rafa's teams come into their own in the 2nd part of the season and he plays more settled teams/tactics) to saying he can never win the EPL and his record proves it.

Apologies for the personal jibe, my point is you've given up on Rafa too easily.

It's just because it's going to be 4 years and still little sign of a title challenge. If we're just not good enough to challenge, then i'd have no problem. But i think we're good enough to certainly be within 10 points of the winners.

I dont expect him to win it, but he needs to be getting as much as possible out of what he has to work with - and i dont think he is, quite simply because, as i alluded to before, we dont finish as close to the winners as i think accuately reflects our quality and their's.

[bigfooty]

In one post you praise Wenger for building for the future then shot down Rafa for doing the same. I can understand it is easier for Arsenal fans to accept due to winning the league in recent times. Instead of those two who would you have spent the money on, and do you think we would have been guaranteed success?

I think it's different because Wenger won the title with relatively little surgery to his side and was then able to start shaping the club how he wanted.

That's why Rafa got pissed off and left Valencia, because he brought them all this unprecedented success but didn't get the freedom to do what he wanted.

Here he has had relatively little meddling in his transfer spending in so far as people buying players for him but a number of the players he has brought to the club haven't been the right type or of a sufficient standard. You may argue it is because of money but I think he could have spent what he has had better.

As for Babel, Lucas and Yossi, I think we could have bought perhaps only one of them and pooled the money from the other two to get a really top class creative / wide player.

[Darkon]

I agree that the competition in Englands top-4 is better, however looking at the general league I would disagree a whole lot. I still think you come up with the wrong conclusion on this point. The reason you can't afford to loose as many points in PL as in LL, comes down to the middle-teams in english football being far worse than in spain.

Two point distant between CL qual and relegation is 24p. in england (if we win our game in hand), where it is only 16 in spain.

In spain only 5 points seperate nr. 9 and 19, england nr. 14-19

All this is quite common in Spain, I would actually say it is quite unsual that RM has gotten so far ahead already, and usually the competition for all european places are stronger than this year.

All in all, I don't think you can draw the conclusion from the amount of points, as there are many other factors involved. Your reverse logic would be that ferguson, wenger or mourinho would win La Liga by default because they are used to getting more than 80 points! No wonder Real was after wenger for such a long period then !

[Craig_H]

Partially.


Higher tempo calls for more cohesion on the pitch. This means you cannot chop and change and get away with it as easily as in Spain or Italy for instance.

Alas, I think, not certain, that Manu and Arse also rotate to an extent. How much compared to us, I am not sure. Rotation is something no one mentions when you are winning, but is brought when you are losing.

There is an enormous amount of traditionalists in this country when it comes to football, use man marking, play 442, play your best 11 and a lot of other stuff. They love to stick the boot in when you concede a goal from a set piece, keeping shut when it actually becomes clear that you have the best defensive record in the league and rarely concede from set pieces compared to teams with man marking... but I digress and wander off here...

That said, I don't think rotation is the main reason for our players wasting chance after chance against City, Brum, Wigan and the like. But I do think tha t the rotation can be a factor that affects the players confidence, whether or not they should be professional enough to handle that is another matter.

The others do rotate, i wouldnt dispute that.

But they dont rotate every game and they dont make as many changes as rafa. I think they'd make 2 or 3 changes. For rafa, 4 changes isnt a lot. He'll often make 5 or 6, sometimes even 7 or 8. You simply cant do that, it disrupts all stability. Furthermore, the others will play a settled side for a number of games and then rotate. Rafa wont play a settled side for 4, 5 or 6 games.

Lastly, the others play their weaker players in 'easy' home games and that's why they'd usually get away with it. For tricky games and away ones, they'll rarely leave out top players, if they have a choice. Rafa rotates and drops key players almost according to a rota system, as opposed to making the decision based on the difficulty of the opponents and the match concerned.

[kris90210]

You dont need hindsight to know that a consistent, settled side which plays a consistent settled system will lead to players being more comfortable and performing better.

If rafa doesnt know this without the use of hindsight, then we have huge problems.

haha you make it sound so easy!!

[Craig_H]

I agree that the competition in Englands top-4 is better, however looking at the general league I would disagree a whole lot. I still think you come up with the wrong conclusion on this point. The reason you can't afford to loose as many points in PL as in LL, comes down to the middle-teams in english football being far worse than in spain.

Two point distant between CL qual and relegation is 24p. in england (if we win our game in hand), where it is only 16 in spain.

In spain only 5 points seperate nr. 9 and 19, england nr. 14-19

All this is quite common in Spain, I would actually say it is quite unsual that RM has gotten so far ahead already, and usually the competition for all european places are stronger than this year.

All in all, I don't think you can draw the conclusion from the amount of points, as there are many other factors involved. Your reverse logic would be that ferguson, wenger or mourinho would win La Liga by default because they are used to getting more than 80 points! No wonder Real was after wenger for such a long period then !

The only point i'm making with the points analysis is that you can afford to drop plenty of points in spain and still win the title, unlike in england. That's a fact.

The next part then, is the question of whether consistent changes to players and system, playing players in wrong positions and such like is going to cost you more points, than not doing so. I think it does.

Then, you link this with the first part, about points analysis - because you cant afford to drop so many points in the PL as you can in england, you need to refrain from doing those things that cause you to drop points.

[Craig_H]

haha you make it sound so easy!!

Sorry, but knowing that a settled side and formation is more likely to win games than a frequently changing side and system IS easy. It's not rocket science, keep things stable and the players get used to it and are comfortable with it - thus they perform better more often than not.

Change it all the time and you disrupt the stability - which makes things more difficult.

Yep, that's an easy concept to understand.

[Craig_H]

But how could Arsenal and Chelsea have known this for sure when they appointed them?? They couldn't! They had to go by their previous records from outside the PL.



Also, I think saying Rafa is unwilling to learn and develop is not giving the man credit. And as I say, I am willing to leave it until the end of next season.

Well obviously they didnt know it, but they took the chance and have been proved right.

Four years now and Rafa hasnt proven the same.

[Dhav]

It's just because it's going to be 4 years and still little sign of a title challenge. If we're just not good enough to challenge, then i'd have no problem. But i think we're good enough to certainly be within 10 points of the winners.

I dont expect him to win it, but he needs to be getting as much as possible out of what he has to work with - and i dont think he is, quite simply because, as i alluded to before, we dont finish as close to the winners as i think accuately reflects our quality and their's.

You have legitimate concerns, I dont doubt that, but I think you're jumping the gun and going in at the deep end a bit. You talk of a less than 10 pts deficit, it will be 9 pts if we win our game in hand v West Ham at home. It is also mid-way through the season, there is no reason why that gap can't be mitigated beitween now and the end of the season. You're judging him prematurely. Let's wait to the end of the season and see how close to the winners we end up at the end before saying he is under-achieving.

[Craig_H]

You have legitimate concerns, I dont doubt that, but I think you're jumping the gun and going in at the deep end a bit. You talk of a less than 10 pts deficit, it will be 9 pts if we win our game in hand v West Ham at home. It is also mid-way through the season, there is no reason why that gap can't be mitigated beitween now and the end of the season. You're judging him prematurely. Let's wait to the end of the season and see how close to the winners we end up at the end before saying he is under-achieving.

I know what you're saying but with those 3 away games at United, Chelsea and Arsenal to come, i wouldnt be surprised if we end up over 10 points adrift.

Obviously we're only speculating now and the end of the season will tell us if we're right or not, but without use of a time machine, we CAN only speculate. It's either that or nobody posts anything til the season ends.

[Pacman]

I find it all laughable.

If we close the gap from last season that is progress however certain people think that isn't good enough.

God help our next manager if Rafa does go.