For once and for all...

[Craig_H]

He inherited a team that was nowhere near Premiership winning quality, the same cant be said of Wenger, His team he took over was old but quality, not a pile of ****.....that was comfortably fourth in the league and look at what scum and chelsea have spent since......unfair to compare

So you're telling me Bruce Rioch left Arsenal in a better state the Houllier left us? Nah, sorry.

In Rioch's final full season 1995-1996, Arsenal had finished 5th, 8 points below us and 19 points off the top. Two years later, Wenger won the double.

Ged's final season saw us finish 4th. So in effect, Rafa inherited a higher placed side when he took over than Wenger did.

[Craig_H]

What you are describing is a gross exaggeration of what Rafa's implementing.

If we had a defence that was good on the ball, wingers who can win matches and another striker other than Torres who can score goals, we would have won a lot more points this season and people wouldn't search for reasons why we haven't done as well as we wanted. It's simple, when the opponents sit back, we can't break them down because we are ineffective starting attacks from the back, we don't have wingers who can consistently take on defenders and create things out of nothing and once Torres is marked out of the game we aren't going to score because Kuyt is concentrated at passing the ball sideways to a team mate 40 yards from goal.

Can you get that in your head?!

Oh i can.

I am also able to grasp the simplest of concepts, that says a settled, consistent side tends to do better than an unsettled one.

Are you?

[Craig_H]

Yes, but we won the CC game and drew away at Pompey, which at that time was good as they were unbeaten there-

But, I did wonder why.

Do you think he has a set rota, or did you just make that up?

I think he acts as though he feels that he HAS to rotate players a certain number of times within a set period, and to an extent, it seems to be regardless of who we're playing.

[Craig_H]

It's not a 'fact'. A player in a settled team can become complacent. A settled team is easy to prepare against - the same 'common sense' that approves the same 11/settled team approach is also used in the 'teams have learned how to play against them' argument to explain 2nd season syndrome. It's an opinion, and may be true, but you have not by any means established it as a fact.

Going back to your La Liga stats; did the managers of the teams Rafa finished above change their teams more or less than Rafa? Because whilst it may be true that you can afford to drop more points and still win La Liga, you still need to drop fewer points than your opponents - and if Rafa managed that whilst rotating/disrupting more than them, then your stability leads to better results argument is questionable; although the truth is that with both your argument and its refutation, the 'fact' is that there are almost certainly too many other variables to draw a meaningful conclusion either way.

Ultimately I go with the evidence (as I see it) proving that Rafa has been succesful previously, and that is not because he is a one-trick pony, but a clever, analytical manager, prepared to consider and try different methods, systems and tactics; and deserves further backing in the PL. I groan inside at the implicit xenophobia of him being 'Good - Brilliant even - in Europe' but not up to the PL task - as if every European team offers the same challenge whether Spanish, Italian, German, Czech, Turkish or French - yet the complexity and sophistication of the English game is beyond him.

How am i being xenophobic?

Interesting accusation...

And when i say a settled side, i mean one in which the players are comfortable with their system and used to what they're meant to do. In that scenario, sorry, but it IS a fact that such a team will generally do better than one where the players arent comfortable with what they're doing.

[Craig_H]

The fact that we didn't get Heinze and the injury to Agger. If we need to assign a reason as to why we've struggled since early season I don't think we need look much further. We simply didn't have the strength in depth, it's not like Rafa didn't know this either. Rotation and everything else is moot by comparison.

Certainly plays a part, but i dont think Heinze would've enabled us to break down and score goals against Pompey, Brum, Wigan etc.

[Craig_H]

So what would you have us do? Play the same 11 players, the same formation continually for the whole season? Wenger doesnt do that, Ferguson doesnt and neither did Mourinho.

Benitez aspires to the same thing your boyfriend Mourinho does - 2 quality players for every position. He would rotate just as much as Rafa if he was to take over. Oh, and he is also a cautious, defensive manager.

You want to talk fact but discount the only facts that really matter in football - results. Rafa's record is up there with the very best. He hasnt won the premiership YET because its not as simple as some internet warrior saying "lets win the premiership, all we need to do is play with settled players all the time". There are millions of things going on behind the scenes that you dont have a clue about - and I am sure that Rafa could defend any decision he has made in terms of tactics and changes hes made to the team.

The premiership has never been harder to win. Rafa is moving us forward every year. If you cant see that then theres nothing more I can really say to you.

Out of interest, do you sing along to that song of ours?

Try and post without being abusive and we can discuss it...

[red g]

So you're telling me Bruce Rioch left Arsenal in a better state the Houllier left us? Nah, sorry.

In Rioch's final full season 1995-1996, Arsenal had finished 5th, 8 points below us and 19 points off the top. Two years later, Wenger won the double.

Ged's final season saw us finish 4th. So in effect, Rafa inherited a higher placed side when he took over than Wenger did.

At the end of last season, most Arsenal fans would not have dared hope for much more than a period of rebuilding. However, the close season appointment of new manager Bruce Rioch and the subsequent signings of world stars Dennis Bergkamp and David Platt have engendered considerable excitement and optimism amongst Gooners around the world, though the departure of Swedish midfield star Stefan Schwarz is a loss which could leave a shortage of ball-winners. The 12 million pounds Arsenal have invested in Bergkamp and Platt though, clearly indicates that the club intend to seriously pursue the major trophies in the coming season and history shows that since 1986 Arsenal have not gone for longer than one season without winning anything.

However, the coming season looks like being a watershed in the club's history, particularly with two old stalwarts and favourites, Paul Davis and Alan Smith, leaving the club. A new style of play seems likely, the new team could take time to gel, and there are still some concerns about the aging defence, particularly in the fullback postitions, so the wise would caution against over optimism. Wise and objective however, are adjectives rarely applied to football fans.

Key Players
Ian Wright
still vital to Arsenal's attack after yet another 30 goal season, though will be hoping to get into less trouble with referees this year.
Dennis Bergkamp
much is expected of the Dutch striker and much will depend on how well he adapts to English football and puts his Italian nightmare behind him. If he plays just behind the strikers as expected, his partnership with Wright could be truly prolific.
Tony Adams
the rock at the centre of Arsenal's defence, and inspirational captain.
David Platt
some fans remain to be convinced about his true class, though his pedigree as a midfield goal-scorer cannot be disputed. His role in the team will be awaited with much interest.
David Seaman
performed heroics on occasion last season, and England's first choice keeper for most of the year. Had a traumatic end to the season though, with that goal in the EC2 final being followed a week later by a broken ankle in end of season tour. Expected to be fit for the start of the season though.
Unknown Player to Watch for
Given that Arsenal had a fair amount of media exposure last season, none of the players likely to get more than the occasional first team game can really be described as unknown.


The best prospects in the Arsenal reserve team seem to be Stephen Hughes and Gavin McGowan. Hughes is a slightly built left-sided midfielder has been likened to Liam Brady, though such comparisons are always facile and Hughes is said to lack a bit of pace. Still a teenager, he may need more time to develop in the reserves. McGowan is a right sided midfielder cum fullback who impressed on the club's recent post season tour of the Far East. However, both may find that their chances in the coming season are extremely limited, though McGowan could be called upon if Lee Dixon is injured or suffers a loss of form.

Post-season review
Close Season Transfer Activity
In: Dennis Bergkamp (Forward) from Inter Milan (ITA) (7.5 million)
David Platt (Midfield) from Sampdoria (ITA) (4.75 million)

Out: Stefan Schwarz (Midfield) to Fiorentina (ITA) (2.3 million)
Kevin Campbell (Forward) to Nottingham Forest (~2 million)

Squad for 1995-1996 Season
1. David Seaman (England international goalkeeper)
2. Lee Dixon (England int right back)
3. Nigel Winterburn (England int left back)
4.
5. Steve Bould (England int central defender)
6. Tony Adams (England int centre half, club captain)
7. David Platt (England captain, international midfielder)
8. Ian Wright (England int forward, last term's top scorer)
9. Paul Merson (England int midfielder, reformed bad-boy)
10. Dennis Bergkamp (Dutch international forward)
11. Glenn Helder (Dutch int left winger)
12. Andy Linighan (Eng B int central defender, brother of David)
13. Vince Bartram (Reserve goalkeeper)
14. Martin Keown (England int central defender)
15. Ray Parlour (Eng U21 int midfielder with silly haircut)
16. John Hartson (Welsh international striker)
17. David Hillier (Eng U21 international midfielder)
18. Steve Morrow (Northern Ireland int defender/midfield)
19. John Jensen (Danish int midfielder, goalscorer supreme)
20. Chris Kiwomya (Striker, cover for Wright)
21. Eddie McGoldrick (Irish int midfielder, also known as Shoot)
22. Ian Selley (Eng U21 international midfield)
23. Paul Dickov (Scotland U21 international forward)
24. Mark Flatts (Reserve midfielder)
25. Scott Marshall (Reserve centre half)
26. Lee Harper (Reserve goalkeeper)
27. Paul Shaw (Reserve striker)
28. Stephen Hughes (Reserve midfielder)
29. Adrian Clarke (Reserve striker/winger)
30. Gavin McGowan (Reserve fullback)
31. Matthew Rose (Reserve defender)

Retrospective review of the season
Bruce Rioch was appointed manager early in the close season and immediately started laying the foundations for the rebuilding of the team with the big money signings of Dennis Bergkamp and David Platt. His attempt to introduce a more cultured, passing style of football met with the approval of the majority of Arsenal fans, and was, to a degree, successful.

Under the promptings of the Dutch master Bergkamp, Arsenal played at times some very pleasant and entertaining football. There were however, some periods of lamentable form, culminating in the season's nadir, the defeat in the 3rd round of the FA Cup to 1st division Sheffield United. The Littlewoods Cup also ultimately ended in disappointment, though defeat this time came only on away goals in the semi-final at the hands of Aston Villa.

Arsenal's league form was good at times, poor at others. After an uncertain start, Bergkamp and Wright started to click and formed the beginnings of a deadly partnership which helped lift Arsenal to 3rd in the table. However, suspension for Wright and injury for Bergkamp put a brake on the Gunners' progress and that early good form was never consistently recaptured. The loss through injury of defensive pillars, Steve Bould and Tony Adams, in mid December and January respectively, contributed to the mid-season slump. However, the previously unheralded Martin Keown performed heroically in their absence, and with Andy Linighan and later Scott Marshall ensured that from February onwards, the Arsenal defence was as mean as ever.

In the latter half of the season Rioch made the tactical switch to playing 3 (or 5 depending on your point of view) at the back which gave the team a new lease of life. This helped towards a more consistent finish to the league season and lifted Arsenal into the 5th place needed to ensure qualification for the UEFA Cup this year. Needing to win a heartstopping final game the Gunners looked to have thrown it all away, trailing at home to bottom team Bolton with less than 10 minutes to go. However, Rioch's big name signings came up trumps, and Platt and Bergkamp scored to bring Arsenal victory and that vital 5th place in the league.

Off the field, Arsenal fans were shocked by the news in March that Ian Wright had asked for a transfer, a personality clash with Rioch being cited as one of the main reasons. Disquiet about the state of back room relations at Highbury was further heightened by the news that Rioch still hadn't signed a contract. The papers were filled with rumours of his dissatisfaction with the arrangements for signing new players, and of the lack of esteem with which some players viewed him. Following the Graham affair, the Arsenal board had decided that the manager would no longer have control over negotiations with potential new signings.

Along with rumours about interference by vice-Chairman David Dein in football matters, this all led to considerable unease during the latter part of the season. Five days before the start off the new season matters came to a head when Rioch was sacked only days after he had finally signed a contract. The board blamed Rioch's failure to communicate with them. The lack of any major signings and Arsenal's poor pre-season form had led to a certain amount of unrest among fans, but many would have laid the blame more at the feet of the board. The subsequent transfers of French internationals Garde and Vieira within days of Rioch's exit would seem to suggest that the decision to dispense with his services was not a sudden

[red g]

Q4: Donkey of the Year...
Wenger has cleared out the donkeys.
But it's worth mentioning the luckless Kaba Diawara who was a good player,
but will be remembered only for his unerring ability to hit the woodwork.
(MotD magazine edited the first line out)

ArseWeb readers said...
10% - Diawara
10% - Anelka
8% - We don't have them
6% - Caballero
5% - Wreh
4% - Vivas
4% - Adams

and after 3 and a half years with the club his best youngsters

ArseWeb readers said...
28% - Matthew Upson
14% - Paolo Vernazza
13% - Nwankwo Kanu
6% - Nicolas Anelka (some said "to watch on C4's Football Italia")
6% - Freddie Ljungberg
Also mentioned: Pennant, Steve Bould (hopeful of breaking into the first team this season, till he moved to Sunderland), Boa Morte, Boothroyd, Diawara (too late, he's gone too), Grondin (on loan at St Etienne for the next year), Kieron Dyer (wishful thinking?)

[red g]

So you're telling me Bruce Rioch left Arsenal in a better state the Houllier left us? Nah, sorry.

In Rioch's final full season 1995-1996, Arsenal had finished 5th, 8 points below us and 19 points off the top. Two years later, Wenger won the double.

Ged's final season saw us finish 4th. So in effect, Rafa inherited a higher placed side when he took over than Wenger did.

brilliant lets use stats to paint a picture......read below for a truer reflection......looking at there squad and ours, I know whose would have a better chance of winning the leage

[red g]

So you're telling me Bruce Rioch left Arsenal in a better state the Houllier left us? Nah, sorry.

In Rioch's final full season 1995-1996, Arsenal had finished 5th, 8 points below us and 19 points off the top. Two years later, Wenger won the double.

Ged's final season saw us finish 4th. So in effect, Rafa inherited a higher placed side when he took over than Wenger did.

liverpool squad, Rafa inherited

1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge


how you can say that is better than......

1. David Seaman (England international goalkeeper)
2. Lee Dixon (England int right back)
3. Nigel Winterburn (England int left back)
4.
5. Steve Bould (England int central defender)
6. Tony Adams (England int centre half, club captain)
7. David Platt (England captain, international midfielder)
8. Ian Wright (England int forward, last term's top scorer)
9. Paul Merson (England int midfielder, reformed bad-boy)
10. Dennis Bergkamp (Dutch international forward)
11. Glenn Helder (Dutch int left winger)
12. Andy Linighan (Eng B int central defender, brother of David)
13. Vince Bartram (Reserve goalkeeper)
14. Martin Keown (England int central defender)
15. Ray Parlour (Eng U21 int midfielder with silly haircut)
16. John Hartson (Welsh international striker)
17. David Hillier (Eng U21 international midfielder)
18. Steve Morrow (Northern Ireland int defender/midfield)
19. John Jensen (Danish int midfielder, goalscorer supreme)
20. Chris Kiwomya (Striker, cover for Wright)
21. Eddie McGoldrick (Irish int midfielder, also known as Shoot)
22. Ian Selley (Eng U21 international midfield)
23. Paul Dickov (Scotland U21 international forward)
24. Mark Flatts (Reserve midfielder)
25. Scott Marshall (Reserve centre half)
26. Lee Harper (Reserve goalkeeper)
27. Paul Shaw (Reserve striker)
28. Stephen Hughes (Reserve midfielder)
29. Adrian Clarke (Reserve striker/winger)
30. Gavin McGowan (Reserve fullback)
31. Matthew Rose (Reserve defender


or are you WRONG??

[Dhav]

So you're telling me Bruce Rioch left Arsenal in a better state the Houllier left us? Nah, sorry.

In Rioch's final full season 1995-1996, Arsenal had finished 5th, 8 points below us and 19 points off the top. Two years later, Wenger won the double.

Ged's final season saw us finish 4th. So in effect, Rafa inherited a higher placed side when he took over than Wenger did.

More nonsense from DJS. Areyou saying the team Rafa inherited was better placed to launch an immediate assault on the title than the one Wenger inherited? Because if so, that is quite frankly ludicrous. May I remind you when Rafa took over, Man Utd won the title the year before, Arsenal were the current champions, and Chelsea had just spent fortunes for two consecutive summers. Now remind me who were Arsenal's title rivals in 1998? Only Man Utd had any pedigree then.

You go on how Wenger won the double in his first full season, well he was at the club a full 9 months before the start of his first full season. Arsenal in 1996, had a lot of quality, the defensive base was already there. All he needed to do was bring in two or three of his own players, and get the pattern of play he wanted. And he had 9 months to experiment and get it right before his first full season. Wenger was at the club 18 months before winning the league. Rafa was at Liverpool 10 months before winning the CL.

DJS, be a good lad and stick to what you're good at ie name-calling.

[JRC]

The xenophobic point was not in any way aimed at you, but was an aside raised by the prevalence of the absurd but common notion that one can simply classify footballing matters - particularly in respect of Rafa - into the dichotomy 'European' and 'English' without further explanation. And I think I explained that in the post.

And with this explanation
And when i say a settled side, i mean one in which the players are comfortable with their system and used to what they're meant to do. In that scenario, sorry, but it IS a fact that such a team will generally do better than one where the players arent comfortable with what they're doing.

you are using 'settled' to mean the opposite of 'not comfortable with what they are doing' by definition, but I don't have to accept your contrast. It's not far removed from defining 'settled' as 'performing well', which means you make your argument by defining your terms appropriately, but without content.

'Not being comfortable with what they are doing' does not necessarily follow from having a managed rotation policy, or not selecting the best 11 every week - you still haven't established this as a fact in Rafa/Liverpools case, other than restating your opinion. And I would argue that there are many spheres where 'settled' or 'stability' can be the enemy of acheivement and performance - the magical 'creative tension'.

The 70's Dutch Team, and their Total Football, were certainly not stable, or particulalry settled, but it didn't stop them performing.

[NICKZS]

More nonsense from DJS. Areyou saying the team Rafa inherited was better placed to launch an immediate assault on the title than the one Wenger inherited? Because if so, that is quite frankly ludicrous. May I remind you when Rafa took over, Man Utd won the title the year before, Arsenal were the current champions, and Chelsea had just spent fortunes for two consecutive summers. Now remind me who were Arsenal's title rivals in 1998? Only Man Utd had any pedigree then.

You go on how Wenger won the double in his first full season, well he was at the club a full 9 months before the start of his first full season. Arsenal in 1996, had a lot of quality, the defensive base was already there. All he needed to do was bring in two or three of his own players, and get the pattern of play he wanted. And he had 9 months to experiment and get it right before his first full season. Wenger was at the club 18 months before winning the league. Rafa was at Liverpool 10 months before winning the CL.

DJS, be a good lad and stick to what you're good at ie name-calling.

[red g]

[QUOTE=Dhavlos;876252]More nonsense from DJS. Areyou saying the team Rafa inherited was better placed to launch an immediate assault on the title than the one Wenger inherited? Because if so, that is quite frankly ludicrous. May I remind you when Rafa took over, Man Utd won the title the year before, Arsenal were the current champions, and Chelsea had just spent fortunes for two consecutive summers. Now remind me who were Arsenal's title rivals in 1998? Only Man Utd had any pedigree then.

You go on how Wenger won the double in his first full season, well he was at the club a full 9 months before the start of his first full season. Arsenal in 1996, had a lot of quality, the defensive base was already there. All he needed to do was bring in two or three of his own players, and get the pattern of play he wanted. And he had 9 months to experiment and get it right before his first full season. Wenger was at the club 18 months before winning the league. Rafa was at Liverpool 10 months before winning the CL.

DJS, be a good lad and stick to what you're good at ie name-calling.[/QUOTE


I posted the arsenal squad earlier in comparison to the liverpool squad to show the absurdity of his post. cue , no response

[Ketario]

Certainly plays a part, but i dont think Heinze would've enabled us to break down and score goals against Pompey, Brum, Wigan etc.

You can't seperate the team like that; defence/midfield/attack, it's too simplistic. A team that has confidence in it's ability not to concede goals can demonstrate patterns of play 5-10 yrds further up the pitch than it would otherwise.

I maintain that our lack of stable defence, (Aurelio, Agger, Arbeloa, Carra all out for varying periods), alongside a lack of quality cover is far more to blame than Rafa's rotation which patently works season on season, (looking at our average second half of season points total compared to our first). The fact that we started well this year makes it all the more irritating, we were hamstrung. Rafa knew the risk, he tried to deal with it, Heinze wasn't allowed to move.