For once and for all...

[red g]

Mate, isnt the important thing where a team ACTUALLY finishes?

As opposed to how good they think they are on paper?

Be honest here.

so what you are saying is everton were better than us when they finished above? there are always other factors you have to take into comsideration.

i believe its a great indication but the team that finishes higher in the league doesnt necessarily have a better team or squad....do you not AGREE?

[Craig_H]

You see, when it was in his interests he was talking about points tallies to indicate the strength/competitiveness of a team, but all of a sudden that has changed to league positions.

Because the two arent remotely linked, are they?

They have no correlation whatsoever, do they?

[red g]

Just so you know, i'll be going to sleep at some point - wouldnt want you sat up all night waiting for my reply

so you are admitting defeat for later, loser

[Craig_H]

so what you are saying is everton were better than us when they finished above? there are always other factors you have to take into comsideration.

i believe its a great indication but the team that finishes higher in the league doesnt necessarily have a better team or squad....do you not AGREE?

They'd performed better that season, but not overall better than us no. However, i'd rather not be the 'better' side if i dont have the actual rewards that go with it.

For example, i'd rather NOT be seen as 'better' than Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea but stilll finish above them.

As opposed to thinking 'we are better', but finishing below them, as happened with everton that season.

[Dhav]

yes, you're deeply respectful and never abusive. And you're full of class and grace too, given the fact that my apology for this (deeply hurtful, apparently) name calling got no response from you, and you choose to carry on complaining about it, a good few months later.

Very classy indeed.

I thanked you for the apology at the time. The problem is you've gone on to abuse and insult countless others since.

I'm addressing the points, i consider what a team ACTUALLY achieves to be more important than what we might think they COULD (but dont) achieve.

Is the achievement relevant? More relevant than the personnel? Especially if we're talking about circumstances where managers change from one season to the next? You argue Rafa is not getting the best out of these players and Mourinho would. Is it so inconceivable that the players under Rioch were good enough, but he couldn't get as much out of them as Wenger?

[redblood]

I posted this on the other thread, but since so many people use the Valencia example, i'll give it its own thread so that people can either agree or disagree and explain why they disagree...hopefully without abuse

It's obviously about why i dont think Rafa's title wins in Spain mean anything with regards to proving he can win the Premier League...



I dont see why people cant grasp that it's different.

His Valencia title winning sides won the league with 77 and 75 points.

Where do you think that would leave you in the Premier League? About third is the answer.

The difference when he was at Valencia, was that you probably COULD afford to draw quite a few games that you're expected to win. He could probably afford to draw at home to La Liga's equivalents to Brum, Wigan and Spurs. It doesnt work that way here.

Even last season, La Liga was won by 76 points. That's all. 76. The season before it was 82 (and Barca won it by 12 points, meaning a tally in the early 70s would've still won it).

Before that, it was 84. This was the highest points tally recorded in La Liga since 1997.

In La Liga, they only started giving 3 points for a win from the 1995-1996 season...and they only dropped down to 20 league clubs (and 38 league games) from 1997-1998. So i'll use 1997-1998 upto 2006-2007 for my example. 10 years worth.

During this time period, the average total points tally for the league champions in spain is 77.4 points.

During the same period in the Premier League, the average total points tally for the leeague champions is 86.3 points.

So that's a difference of basically 9 points.

During those 10 years, the highest tally for La Liga champions was 84, achieved by Barcelona in 2004-2005.

84 points would only have won you the Premier League in four out of those 10 years.

In 1999-2000, Deportivo won La Liga with just 69 points.

During the whole history of the Premier League, 69 points would only once have seen a side finish above 3rd...and that's only one solitary season. In all the other seasons, 69 points would've got you a 3rd or 4th placed finish.


Now do you see why Rafa's methodology that won him La Liga is meaningless here? Because you need to achieve far more to win the Premier League than you do to win La Liga.

If someone can argue my point, then please do so.

I've backed this up with facts and statistics. If someone can dispute it doing the same thing, then fair play.

Maybe it proves that the other teams in La Liga are better than the other teams in the EPL because they take more points off the big team and makes for a more competitive league which is something we are possibily facing in the EPL from this season on.

[Craig_H]

so you are admitting defeat for later, loser

Yep, i've lost.

I wont actually be sleeping, that was a fib. I'll be engraving your 'winners' trophy

[Craig_H]

I thanked you for the apology at the time. The problem is you've gone on to abuse and insult countless others since.

Have i? Countless others you say? Interesting, please provide links to back this up.

Or did i just respond in kind to pacman after he'd had a go at me?

[Dhav]

Have i? Countless others you say? Interesting, please provide links to back this up.

Or did i just respond in kind to pacman after he'd had a go at me?

I've seen you do it countless times, and I've pulled you up on it several times as well. You know it and I know it.

Quite frankly I'm not going to waste my time trawling through posts to prove this point, especially as we both know it to be true.

[Craig_H]

I've seen you do it countless times, and I've pulled you up on it several times as well. You know it and I know it.

Quite frankly I'm not going to waste my time trawling through posts to prove this point, especially as we both know it to be true.

Since yesterday, you mean? Because that's what you seemed to be referring to.

If you cant be bothered backing up the statement, it's somewhat unfair to make an unsubstatiated accusation and personal attack, isnt it?

I could thrust any accusation at you, but if i cant back it up, it's not really right.

[red g]

They'd performed better that season, but not overall better than us no. However, i'd rather not be the 'better' side if i dont have the actual rewards that go with it.

For example, i'd rather NOT be seen as 'better' than Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea but stilll finish above them.

As opposed to thinking 'we are better', but finishing below them, as happened with everton that season.

wenger inherited a better team than benitez but wenger seems to have one philosophy on football and how its played, it has been very succesful but then we have been more succesful in the last 2 year as we finished ABOVE them.

but we can only speculate how rafa will get on over the next few years.....i look forward to finding out....i am not sure you do

[Craig_H]

wenger inherited a better team than benitez but wenger seems to have one philosophy on football and how its played, it has been very succesful but then we have been more succesful in the last 2 year as we finished ABOVE them.

but we can only speculate how rafa will get on over the next few years.....i look forward to finding out....i am not sure you do

I dont think Rafa will get a few years mate.

[red g]

Yep, i've lost.

I wont actually be sleeping, that was a fib. I'll be engraving your 'winners' trophy

put on it 'for rafa'

[red g]

I dont think Rafa will get a few years mate.

i think he will if he wins the CL again that gets him a couple more seasons

[tomasjj]

put on it 'for rafa'