Xabi Alonso - the enigma

[Charlie_B]

put the kettle on love

It's brewing, you can put your own sugar in though mate.

[tomasjj]

I'm with John Doe on this one.

Surprise eh.

If it is so easy to nullify Alonso, how come we move the ball more easily out of defense with him in the team? I would say it is because he is better at taking up positions where defenders can find him.

As for Alonso hampering our movement of the ball up the pitch, I disagree. I see a player usually picking the right option almost all the time, making sure his passes are hit hard and with precision to maximise the openings that creates for his teammates. Of course we need width and movement, but no matter if Alonso plays or not we need that to create openings.

And why does SG drop deep to pick up the ball off Mascher? It seems he wants to be the playmaker. Sadly, I don't think that is playing to his strenghts. SG is a great passer too, but it is his ability to spot the right pass and knowing when to go for the breakthrough pass that I question. I think Alonso is better at this, but more importantly like John Doe has pointed out, we want SG further up the pitch, to receive the ball and make those surging runs that scares defenders ****less. Also, with SG dropping deep, we lose even more of that little amount of movement we got further ahead, as SG being very dynamic, offers a lot of movement off the ball.
With SG dropping deep, there is too often only Torres making runs...that is not enough, no matter how good Torres is.

Putting Alonso back in and pushing SG further forward, not behind the striker, cause that is too high up, will get the best out of both players and bring more dynamism and quality possession at the same time. To me, this is the best way of maximising the potential in the player material we have at our disposal.

4231, with Masch sitting in front of the defence, Alonso running the play, SG unleashed. Babel and Benayoun with SG swapping positions behind Torres and pushing on. This also gives us both Masch and Xabi as available players for the defense to get the ball out and not hoofing it.

As for the title of the thread, to me, SG is more of the enigma, who Rafa struggles to get the best out of. And, if I am being honest, I think most of this is down to SG himself and where he wants to play and what role he wants and takes in the team.

[paulcooper4]

It's brewing, you can put your own sugar in though mate.

i dont have sugar

[Alpha]

I won't argue about the actions needed to limit Alonso's game.

However I will argue that it takes no effort at all to limit our game when Mascherano and Gerrard play in the middle, and it takes an effort to limit us when Alonso is on the pitch. That in itself is a good enough argument to play Alonso in the team, because he's actually a threat to the opposition. Gerrard is not a threat to the opposition when he takes on Xabi's role and Mascherano is a non-threat.

The problem is not Alonso. The problem is the players around him. The sum of the threats we pose as a team isn't enough. Gerrard and Torres are great but it isn't enough.

I'm sorry, I could have sworn you just said Gerrard is not a threat to the opposition. Oh. You did say that. Forgive me, but I thought he made his name playing in central midfield. While I agree that he is not as a good a ball-player as Alonso, he is still a good ball-player plus a whole lot more. By that virtue, his game is a lot harder to limit, as admitted by Sven Goran Eriksson before the boxing day game. As for Mascherano, he isn't selected to be a threat. He is selected to provide the security that allows others to threaten. Please tell me how it is possible to limit the game of a ball-winner? Surely he can do his job regardless of how the opposition have set themselves up?

I'm sick of hearing that the problem is not Alonso. Whether is it true or not, it doesn't work. Either we overhaul the team at great expensive or we take Alonso out and adopt a different approach.

By that logic, I question the value to our team of every single player in our squad because not one of them is unstoppable. I'd get rid of all our players bar Gerrard, Torres, Agger and Reina before I even think about Alonso's position in the team. Weak weak argument.

Come on, think it though. Do you really think I don't know Alonso is not our only unstoppable player? The point is not only that he is stoppable, it is that such is his influence, the effect on the team of stopping him is much greater, especially as he plays a position in such an important area of the pitch and especially because, let's be honest, apart from his ball-playing excellence and the odd wonder-strike, he is fairly ordinary.

Every playmaker who plays with a side without proper wingers, with always one striker who's incapable of everything and a defence that struggles to bring the ball out of the back, will have a problem playing at his best.

Any playmaker who is a one-dimensional known-quantity will have a problem playing at his best too, irrespective of the personnel around him.

What loss of form? You mean his decent start to the season, and him just getting back to the side after an injury?

Why are the expectations from Alonso so high in both defending and attacking yet the same people who bash him, praise Mascherano for doing a job on only one end of the pitch? It's hypocrisy at its best.

Do you think he has been the same player since his first couple of seasons? That is what I mean by loss of form. Or if you prefer, we can say he didn't lose form, he is just no longer allowed to show it as much. All I expect from Alonso is to play the ball to the standard he used to. I miss all those weekly masterclasses where he would dominate the ball and take us through his repertoire.

[NICKZS]

Was he??

Fair enough then. Perhaps Rafa had identified Xabi as a possible replacement for Gerrard during the whole sordid affair?

I have heard that Xabi was initially brought in to replace Gerrard.

Not sure if I am simply repeating what has already been said, but **** it. I think Xabi has suffered due to changes in both the teams style of play and the role that he has had to adjust to; over the past few seasons Alonso has consistently been our busiest tackler passer, and was the highest rated winner of possession in the league according to opta stats. This is clearly going to hinder his passing game given that he is not afforded anywhere near the time on the ball he would get with a ball-winning central midfielder alongside him.

All the same, his performances have been erratic and I don't think the ridiculously narrow brand of football we tend to utilise these days gives him much scope when trying to spread the play. If it came down to it, I would have to pick Mascherano ahead of him based on form, but it is still well worth keeping hold of Xab and I am sure he could regain the sort of brilliance he was showing in his first season. As you say Shaggy, it's sad to see - on form he is one of the most entertaining and technically gifted midfielders in the league.

[JohnDoe]

I'm sorry, I could have sworn you just said Gerrard is not a threat to the opposition. Oh. You did say that.

I repeat, Gerrard as a playmaker, in Xabi's role, is not a threat to the opposition. Yes, he's NOT a threat to the opposition when he's got the ball 50 yards from goal and needs to "do something".

Forgive me, but I thought he made his name playing in central midfield. While I agree that he is not as a good a ball-player as Alonso, he is still a good ball-player plus a whole lot more.
By that virtue, his game is a lot harder to limit, as admitted by Sven Goran Eriksson before the boxing day game.

My intention isn't to say that Alonso is better than Gerrard. My intention is to say Alonso is better than Gerrard at playmaking, let him do that and give Gerrard the job of doing what he's best at, wreaking havoc in the final third. When played in the middle with Mascherano, Gerrard is not doing what he's best at.

As for Mascherano, he isn't selected to be a threat. He is selected to provide the security that allows others to threaten. Please tell me how it is possible to limit the game of a ball-winner? Surely he can do his job regardless of how the opposition have set themselves up?

But Alonso can do Mascherano's job as well as his ability to start attacks. Our defensive game did not suffer when Alonso and Gerrard played together in the middle. Our defence is actually worse with Mascherano and Gerrard because we lose the ball more often, causing more opposition attacks. If Alonso did only Mascherano's job and offered nothing in attack, he'd be slated.

I'm sick of hearing that the problem is not Alonso. Whether is it true or not, it doesn't work. Either we overhaul the team at great expensive or we take Alonso out and adopt a different approach.

What approach?! A long ball game? Because that's what we're doing when he's not in the team. It's ridiculous you claim Alonso is the problem when there are glaring faults in the team in other areas of the pitch. WINGERS? Another striker who can hit the net? A defender who can pass? A left back, any left back other than Riise? Nah, it's Alonso's fault we're ****. Clearly it's him.

Come on, think it though. Do you really think I don't know Alonso is not our only unstoppable player? The point is not only that he is stoppable, it is that such is his influence, the effect on the team of stopping him is much greater, especially as he plays a position in such an important area of the pitch and especially because, let's be honest, apart from his ball-playing excellence and the odd wonder-strike, he is fairly ordinary.

Any playmaker who is a one-dimensional known-quantity will have a problem playing at his best too, irrespective of the personnel around him.

What?! You just don't rate Alonso. Nothing to do with style, you think he's average and ordinary. Fair enough, you won't find a lot agreeing with you.

Do you think he has been the same player since his first couple of seasons? That is what I mean by loss of form. Or if you prefer, we can say he didn't lose form, he is just no longer allowed to show it as much. All I expect from Alonso is to play the ball to the standard he used to. I miss all those weekly masterclasses where he would dominate the ball and take us through his repertoire.

Alonso is a victim of his own success and this post is a great evidence of this. If he doesn't put in a magnificent performance every week, he gets slated. It's harsh and unfair.

[JohnDoe]

Alpha

Reading our back and forth comments again, we've reached a dead end. You have your opinion, I respect that, we made our views clear now, no need to continue the pattern since it's been exhausted. Good thread

[CAD]

Other than his passing what makes Alonso extra-ordinary on the pitch?

His drive. His dribbling? His pace? His assists? His goalthreat?

He is intelligent and thinks fast on the brake. He can deliver a deep pass. That is mostly it.

Alonso has been found out. After the first season all the other managers had figured out how to shut Alonso down. Sit close to him and he won't be able to shake his opponent. Not with or without the ball. Remember how much space he had the first year against Spurs? That's what I'm talking about. You just don't see that anymore. They sit on him these days and it's easy to shut him down as well.

Alonso is mostly dangerous if he gets the ball on an immediate counter. Then he can create some situations that will lead to goals. The Torres goal against Chelsea where he finds Gerrard with a neat little header. Classic Alonso.

Alonso is overrated by most posters here. Always has been. He is a good player but most here thinks he is extraordinary - which he isn't. Torres and SG are the only players in our squad who deserves that label.

[Alpha]

I repeat, Gerrard as a playmaker, in Xabi's role, is not a threat to the opposition. Yes, he's NOT a threat to the opposition when he's got the ball 50 yards from goal and needs to "do something".

Gerrard is a threat wherever he is on the pitch. Obviously, surely?

My intention isn't to say that Alonso is better than Gerrard. My intention is to say Alonso is better than Gerrard at playmaking, let him do that and give Gerrard the job of doing what he's best at, wreaking havoc in the final third. When played in the middle with Mascherano, Gerrard is not doing what he's best at.

No, Alonso is not better at playmaking, he is better at ball-playing. Gerrard is a box-to-box midfielder and for my money, should be playing central midfield, dropping deep to collect the ball and advancing forward either by playing it or carrying it. I would rather our creative influence played infront of Gerrard than behind him.

But Alonso can do Mascherano's job as well as his ability to start attacks. Our defensive game did not suffer when Alonso and Gerrard played together in the middle. Our defence is actually worse with Mascherano and Gerrard because we lose the ball more often, causing more opposition attacks. If Alonso did only Mascherano's job and offered nothing in attack, he'd be slated.

Alonso doesn't have the mobility, energy or timing to do Mascherano's job. Our defensive game didn't suffer with Xabi because our attacking players were required to perform more defensive duties than is necessary with Javier. Alonso would deserve to be slated if he only did Masher's job because he wouldn't do it to anything near the same standard.

What approach?! A long ball game? Because that's what we're doing when he's not in the team. It's ridiculous you claim Alonso is the problem when there are glaring faults in the team in other areas of the pitch. WINGERS? Another striker who can hit the net? A defender who can pass? A left back, any left back other than Riise? Nah, it's Alonso's fault we're ****. Clearly it's him.

Hold your horses. I am not the one blaming Alonso - you are the one blaming everybody else for his below-par performances!

What?! You just don't rate Alonso. Nothing to do with style, you think he's average and ordinary. Fair enough, you won't find a lot agreeing with you.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I do rate Alonso. But please, tell me, honestly, what else does he really offer apart from superb ball-playing? What other significant contribution does he offer in greater quality than those he is competing with? Okay, I'll give you his long-range shooting.

Alonso is a victim of his own success and this post is a great evidence of this. If he doesn't put in a magnificent performance every week, he gets slated. It's harsh and unfair.
He is a victim of his own success. Absolutely. But it isn't that doesn't put in a magnificent performance every week, it is that he doesn't put one in every month and that has been the case for the past couple of seasons. I've been patient with him too - waiting for him to return to his best but at this moment in time, I see a better alternative in his position.

[DannyMan2006]

He would deffo play better with a QUALITY winger or two this is true

The only thing I would differ with you about is that to be fair to Rafa he is forced to play narrow with the players at his disposal. From what I can see he has tried his best to get genuine wingers since he took over but for one reason or another he hasnt been able to get the wingers in he has truly wanted. Figo, Quaresma, Simao, Joaquin, Mancini, Alves and even Solano have all come extremely close to joining the reds in the past couple of seasons

And Stelios, who was being kept out of the Bolton team by one Danny Guthrie.

[Alpha]

Alpha

Reading our back and forth comments again, we've reached a dead end. You have your opinion, I respect that, we made our views clear now, no need to continue the pattern since it's been exhausted. Good thread

Fair enough.

Sorry mate, I had already responded to your last post before I saw this one.

[Rishi73]

I think we all compare Alonso's form to his 1st season which was quite remarkable. I think he has lost his way over the last couple seasons but there a few factors attributing to this like exhaustion from the world cup and his latest bouts of injuries. But I think the key thing is that he's been made more of a defensive midfielder which he never was before he came here. He was a playmaker first a foremost and playing alongside Didi allowed him to move around freely and dictate play. Obviously with Didi gone he has had to take over this role and become more focussed on positioning. Mascherano hasn't solved this problem because he is a destructive player who puts pressure on players higher up pitch than Didi ever did.

He also seems less determined than he once was. He was just as influential as Gerrard, the everton game springs to mind but I don't see this anymore. In fact I don't see this from any of our players and this is probably why we are struggling.

[JohnDoe]

Alonso is far better defensively than what you're saying, Alpha. He's an excellent tackler and reads the game really well when we defend. Hamann was superb in his prime and he didn't have the mobility and energy Mascherano has, I think Alonso has similar defensive qualities to Hamann. He's not a soft arse. That's all I'm going to add.

There's no need to apologize for responding to my post.

[Alpha]

Alonso is far better defensively than what you're saying, Alpha. He's an excellent tackler and reads the game really well when we defend. Hamann was superb in his prime and he didn't have the mobility and energy Mascherano has, I think Alonso has similar defensive qualities to Hamann. He's not a soft arse. That's all I'm going to add.

There's no need to apologize for responding to my post.

Alonso is good defensively and so was Didi. That is clear.

But neither have the same tenacity as Mascherano nor do they cover the same ground.

[dww]

I think he was brought in to replace Gerrard and when it became clear to Rafa that he couldn't sell SG because of his importance to the fans and also because of just how good he was, Xabi started taking a back seat and was given a less dominant role than he had been given initially. Then SG moved back into the centre (having been put on the right to accomodate Xabi) and because you need someone more defensive than Xabi alongside him, first Momo and now Masher are being picked ahead of him.

I can see him leaving - he's too good to be second choice.

I don't think that's true. I believe that Rafa always thought that Gerrard was a square peg in a round hole in his vision of a central midfielder and wanted to release him into a more attacking role. Alonso was IMO bought to bring the ball out of defense with a greater variety of short and long passing and to act as a deep playmaker. This offered the option of either Rafa compromising his system to accommodate Gerrard's threat running from deep as an exception but for him to play other jobs regularly as at the time we had no alternative play maker.

I use a fairly strict definition of central midfielder here as I think that Rafa would be happy with him either centrally or on the right in a more advanced attacking midfield capacity. Obviously there is an element of conjecture to all of this but I think much of our best football has come when Gerrard has been released from his duties in the central positions. I can see that an argument can be made for Rafa changing his system.

I really think we do have comparable if not better CM options than United. IMO we need the variety of players in our squad to compete (it is notable that they are actually similar to United's options in the range of available styles).

The problem is that we demand too much from out central players. Our fullbacks rarely overlap and of late their deep crossing has been unproductive. Our wide midfield players have offered limited goal threat and much the same could have been said for our other attacking options except Gerrard and Torres.

At times both last season and this we have provided some good football and for brief periods scored a lot of goals. The problem is that these periods have required the team to be playing very much in sync and to execute our game plan and control the ball for long periods of time. This can only work with our selection of attacking players if everyone is confident and pulling in the same direction. I would say that uncertainty and a few indifferent results have combined to make this difficult to achieve this season. Having stability in the club as much as having exceptional game breaking players in larger numbers as Arsenal and United means their teams have not suffered these problems.

For me people are too eager to scapegoat individual players. In particular I think Alonso is being picked out here for no good reason. If anything our central midfielders are our strength. The criticism here is largely picking fault for the sake of it in my eyes. You need a variety of options in central midfield as a top team and Xabi is an outstanding option to have.