A split on The Kop

[reddragon]

and there was me trying to be serious ffs

[rushscored4]

Do you want me to meet you on the friday as well

I've not got anything arranged, mate. All I've got planned is the rugby on the Saturday afternoon. Is Rhodders out (where is the little bugger by the way)?

[redlancer]

[QUOTE]the only people that are naive are the ones who thought whoever came in for us would so without any intention of making money and wouldn't turn us into a buisness.i don't know anyone who thought that, but if i find someone then i'll let you know.
then why all the comments re the financing?

And the only reason DIC are still looking at buying us is becasue they see an oportunaty to make money and they could easily be on a shorter.whats a 'shorter'? after a short term profit - DIC are after investors and was mention of a 3 year high profit return - to get a return you'd need to sell the club?

And as soon as Moores signed us over to anyone we'd of lost our "sole" get down the cobblers then innit lolas we are now a buisness end of.

Maybe protesting when we don't have all the facts, when we don't know what's going on behind the scenes and have displayed a total lack of buisness knowledge, maybe its us thats fueling all the fires for the media and therefore making us look the outfit we fear.

We all laughed at the united fans protesting and starting up thier own club - yet where are they now? i didn't - i felt sorry for them
you might not of but i bet a high % of people protesting against the yanks did

The yanks will never sell because of the fans - they will just manage us from afar which will make it worse.

It seems there's a lot of get the Yanks out how dare they try to sack Rafa - why beacuse we decided when Rafa goes not you.as always mate. Tell me a manager who was sacked before his time at Anfield? true how many were "sacked" on the terraces well before Moores or co felt they had to and lets not forget before Moores and Sky we were successful

With all that's gone on hick's is now saying they're behind Rafa - he has a never been refused a player - and we're building a 70k stadium.I take it you believe the hype then?
I will believe it when it happens but the fact we are so early into what has turned out to be a messy takeover I'm on the side of lets see what happen as i know takeovers take time to settle

If he now fails to deliver its lilkley the press wil go to town on him.

They are 10 months into a massive buisness which requires a lot if changes and things don't happen over night - they have made mistakes and what they seems to off done is been too public.[B] so it's OK if you're a **** so long as you don't tell anyone?[/B]
how much of this stuff goes on behind the scenes that we or other fans don't see - wonder if we approached Rafa before Ged left, likewise uncle Roy had no say in Ged appointment, maybe its more common place now due to the higher stakes. [/QUOTE

[rushscored4]

and there was me trying to be serious ffs

Me too, Comrade...

By the way, lads, this site will be down tomorrow as the internet is American. You can't watch any US TV shows either, drive a Ford or wear Calvin Klein grundies. Sorry but we need to let Hicks & Gillett know how we feel, brothers...

[reddragon]

[QUOTE=redlancer;923181]

the only people that are naive are the ones who thought whoever came in for us would so without any intention of making money and wouldn't turn us into a buisness.i don't know anyone who thought that, but if i find someone then i'll let you know.
then why all the comments re the financing?turning the club into a better business (it was always a business before - just a ****ely run one!) is one thing - landing it with all the debt involved in this refinance package is a total other thing. I was never expecting (or hoping) for an Abramovich, but I was expecting the new owner to invest some of his own money in order to set us on a better business standing. The deal that Steve Morgan put on the table was better than what's happening at the moment - the two shysters aren't investing a single cent of their own in the club!

And the only reason DIC are still looking at buying us is becasue they see an oportunaty to make money and they could easily be on a shorter.whats a 'shorter'? after a short term profit - DIC are after investors and was mention of a 3 year high profit return - to get a return you'd need to sell the club? i though DIC were after minority investors to boost the investment in the new stadium though - not quite the same thing as selling the club.

And as soon as Moores signed us over to anyone we'd of lost our "sole" get down the cobblers then innit lolas we are now a buisness end of.

Maybe protesting when we don't have all the facts, when we don't know what's going on behind the scenes and have displayed a total lack of buisness knowledge, maybe its us thats fueling all the fires for the media and therefore making us look the outfit we fear.

We all laughed at the united fans protesting and starting up thier own club - yet where are they now? i didn't - i felt sorry for them
you might not of but i bet a high % of people protesting against the yanks did
you may be right - i couldn't possibly comment
The yanks will never sell because of the fans - they will just manage us from afar which will make it worse.

It seems there's a lot of get the Yanks out how dare they try to sack Rafa - why beacuse we decided when Rafa goes not you.as always mate. Tell me a manager who was sacked before his time at Anfield? true how many were "sacked" on the terraces well before Moores or co felt they had to and lets not forget before Moores and Sky we were successfulexactly my point - the Chairman has always given a manager time, and so have the fans. It's only when it's obvious that we're heading in the wrong direction do we mutually agree to get rid

With all that's gone on hick's is now saying they're behind Rafa - he has a never been refused a player - and we're building a 70k stadium.I take it you believe the hype then?
I will believe it when it happens but the fact we are so early into what has turned out to be a messy takeover I'm on the side of lets see what happen as i know takeovers take time to settle

If he now fails to deliver its lilkley the press wil go to town on him.

They are 10 months into a massive buisness which requires a lot if changes and things don't happen over night - they have made mistakes and what they seems to off done is been too public.[B] so it's OK if you're a **** so long as you don't tell anyone?[/B]
how much of this stuff goes on behind the scenes that we or other fans don't see - wonder if we approached Rafa before Ged left, likewise uncle Roy had no say in Ged appointment, maybe its more common place now due to the higher stakes. [/QUOTE

[Revo]

Me too, Comrade...

By the way, lads, this site will be down tomorrow as the internet is American. You can't watch any US TV shows either, drive a Ford or [B]wear Calvin Klein [/B]grundies. Sorry but we need to let Hicks & Gillett know how we feel, brothers...

thought you went commando anyway

[rushscored4]

thought you went commando anyway

Sorry, Kev, you're an adopted Yank so you're banned tomorrow as well!

[Fiddy]

Me too, Comrade...

By the way, lads, this site will be down tomorrow as the internet is American. You can't watch any US TV shows either, drive a Ford or wear Calvin Klein grundies. Sorry but we need to let Hicks & Gillett know how we feel, brothers...

let's all become Muslim too

[Dhav]

i seem to recall that they have admitted lining up Klinnsmann in November.

When will people get this into thier heads? Read the ONLY direct quote on the whole matter, from Hicks. He said they went to Klinsman for advice and information on European football, and were impressed enough to offer him a retainer in the eventuallity Rafa walked. Its nowhere near the same thing as lining someone else up to replace him while he's still in place (which goes on all the time, and HAS been done by LFC before), but hey, dont let that fact spoil your mindset.

What complete and utter nonsense that is. Do you really believe that?

Bayern Munich have said that Klinsmann was in advanced negotiations with Liverpool and that he had a very detailed offer on the table from us. Bayern also said they had to act quickly to prise Klinsmann away from Liverpool. Some journalist who was at Bayern for a few days at the time of Klinsmann's appointment says he was told by a Bayern official that Klinsmann had even selected the back room team he was going to take with him to Anfield. But of course, you would rather believe Mr Tomas Integrity Hicks and his "ONLY direct quote on the matter" :whatever:

Added to that the fact that they had been talking to other managers and not just Klinsmann (Mourinho and Capello have been mentioned) then clearly you are living in some kind of cloud cuckoo land.

[El Jefecito]

What complete and utter nonsense that is. Do you really believe that?

Bayern Munich have said that Klinsmann was in advanced negotiations with Liverpool and that he had a very detailed offer on the table from us. Bayern also said they had to act quickly to prise Klinsmann away from Liverpool. Some journalist who was at Bayern for a few days at the time of Klinsmann's appointment says he was told by a Bayern official that Klinsmann had even selected the back room team he was going to take with him to Anfield. But of course, you would rather believe Mr Tomas Integrity Hicks and his "ONLY direct quote on the matter" :whatever:

Added to that the fact that they had been talking to other managers and not just Klinsmann (Mourinho and Capello have been mentioned) then clearly you are living in some kind of cloud cuckoo land.

Never heard that before. Where did you read that?

[cullinp]

Read this then tell me to not protest against these PRICKS!

Nick Harris: Anfield weighed down by £350m millstone
Related Articles
Independent.co.uk Web



Liverpool spent more than three years looking for heavyweight backers to take them to the next level. They found a helium balloon. And it's tied to a skip.


The club's American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, can try to spin their £350m refinancing, announced yesterday, in any positive light they wish. That is their prerogative as the outfitters who dressed the emperor in new clothes.

But facts stand in the way of any claims that Liverpool are better off now than a year ago. At the bank? Absolutely not. On the pitch? No. Dressing-room morale? Hardly. On the terraces? You are joking, aren't you?

When David Moores (Liverpool's former 51 per cent owner) and Rick Parry (the chief executive) swallowed the Americans' assurances that they were big hitters with deep pockets, they were sold a pup. And the pup is threatening to disgrace itself on the 1892 antique carpet.

Here is what Gillett said in February last year, seeking to distance himself and Hicks from the kind of tactics the Glazer family used when buying Manchester United and ladening it with debt. "We have purchased the club with no debt on the club so, in that regard, it is different [to the Glazers]."

No longer true. It is the same as the Glazers, except that Hicks and Gillett, even now, have not put any of their own money in. Every cent, either spent so far or earmarked, has been borrowed.

At the time of the takeover, Liverpool had debts of £60m, some of that relating to the takeover itself. Hicks' and Gillett's refinancing involves transferring that, plus the £185m of debt they used to buy Liverpool, into a new £245m bundle owed to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Wachovia Bank via their Kop investment vehicle.

On top of that, Liverpool will have £105m of new debt – guaranteed against its assets – to start work on the stadium, and for working capital. Total: £350m debt, and Liverpool in hock to a greater extent than ever. Parry can take credit for persuading the Americans to shovel a chunk of the liabilities into a subsidiary pot. They wanted all £350m directly on Liverpool's books.

But the reddest of herrings is that Hicks and Gillett are providing "owner cash, letters of credit and personal guarantees" against £225m of the £245m bundle. What does that actually mean? It means Hicks and Gillett are personally responsible for that cash, and will be keener than ever to skim any Liverpool profits to repay it. It does not mean they will stump up so much as a fiver of their hard-earned to buy any players or masonry.

Herein lies the risk, to the owners and the club. Liverpool are not cash cows on the scale of Manchester United or Arsenal. Their most profitable season was 2004-05, with pre-tax profits of £9.46m. The next year they lost £5m on a turnover of £119m. Interest payments alone on £350m of debt will be around £25m a year before capital repayments start. And that is before around £250m more is borrowed to pay for the new stadium, although that loan, in fairness, should fund itself via naming rights, sponsorship and ticket sales.

The financial figures for 2006-07 should look good because of last season's Champions' League run. But any stutters from here on in – like failing to be consistent top-table European participants – and things could look sticky. The finance is crucial. It underpins everything. It is the reason that Moores and Parry spent years courting potential investors.

"After much careful consideration, I have agreed to sell my shares to assist in securing the investment needed for the new stadium and for the playing squad," Moores said when he sold his shares for £89.6m. Moores and his fellow former owners did not want to borrow that investment themselves. The Americans did. And Liverpool have gone from Premier League also-rans, pootling along financially, to Premier League also-rans pootling deeper into the red.

What they said... and what happened

George Gillett, Feb 2007: "[Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher] spoke extremely warmly about Rafa and made us aware that they feel this man is truly one of the great geniuses in the recent history of the sport."

Since: Interview Jürgen Klinnsman behind Rafa Benitez's back.

George Gillett, Feb 2007: "The first spade will start going into the ground on that [stadium] project by March [2007]." Since: Work yet to start.

George Gillett, Feb 2007: "We have purchased the club with no debt on the club so, in that regard, it is different [to the Glazers' buyout]."

Since: £105m debt on the club's books. (£60m previously).

Tom Hicks, Feb 2007: "It was not a question of money, it was a question of 'Are we the proper custodians?' and I believe we are ... Over the next 30 years I'll be happy to put a lot of my family's money into this club."

Since: No money up front from either Hicks' or Gillett's own reserves.

Rick Parry, Feb 2007: "The partnership created by George and Tom is a very special one. They're bringing to the table... real resources and a strong commitment and understanding of the traditions of Liverpool."

Since: Real resources of £350m borrowed money


These cunts will be the death of this club, and to sit there and say "oh well, singing songs won't do anything" is bollocks.

We need to do everything possible to get rid of these two lying *******s.

[Dhav]

Never heard that before. Where did you read that?

Someone posted it on here. I think the journalist in qn was Graham Hunter, although i may be wrong.

[nobbylad]

It was very noticable yesterday that the fans on the Kop have spit into 2 camps. The ones who want to protest and the ones who dont.

We had the RTK section singing their protest songs only to be drowned out by others singing Liverpool Liverpool etc.

No what pissed me off was the fact that people were only singing to drown out the protest songs. Fair enough if you dont belive in singing protest songs. But ****in sing for the rest of the game.

When ever the RTK section sang any other songs no one ****in joined in, as soon as they sang a protest song every ****er piped up to drown em out.

I can only see this rift growing and growing

To be honest mate, that was probably one of the worst days I've had at the match. There was a group near me who for the whole match complained/moaned/bitched about everything and every player. Right from the kick-off, even before Havant scored they were spouting the same ****e, not necessarily about H&G but just getting on the team's back etc. When Havant did score, they were spitting even more venom (and pies) over everyone within earshot....absolute disgrace

Why anyone would want to shell out twenty odd quid to sit there whining like little ****houses is quite beyond me.......the Liverpool way....my arse!

Not sure the split is limited to those that want the Yanks and those that don't. I think there's a fair few who wouldn't even sing if we were 10-nil up against the Mancs.

BTW - You didn't happen to be in BLK 103 Row 27 did you?

[RedJedi]

To be honest mate, that was probably one of the worst days I've had at the match. There was a group near me who for the whole match complained/moaned/bitched about everything and every player. Right from the kick-off, even before Havant scored they were spouting the same ****e, not necessarily about H&G but just getting on the team's back etc. When Havant did score, they were spitting even more venom (and pies) over everyone within earshot....absolute disgrace

Why anyone would want to shell out twenty odd quid to sit there whining like little ****houses is quite beyond me.......the Liverpool way....my arse!

Not sure the split is limited to those that want the Yanks and those that don't. I think there's a fair few who wouldn't even sing if we were 10-nil up against the Mancs.

BTW - You didn't happen to be in BLK 103 Row 27 did you?

Yeah i was, thats where i always sit. Plenty of moaners round there. Plenty of people fed up with Rafa round there, mind you i think that feeling is growing all over the place.

[Jazzmaster]

To be honest mate, that was probably one of the worst days I've had at the match. There was a group near me who for the whole match complained/moaned/bitched about everything and every player. Right from the kick-off, even before Havant scored they were spouting the same ****e, not necessarily about H&G but just getting on the team's back etc. When Havant did score, they were spitting even more venom (and pies) over everyone within earshot....absolute disgrace

Why anyone would want to shell out twenty odd quid to sit there whining like little ****houses is quite beyond me.......the Liverpool way....my arse!

Not sure the split is limited to those that want the Yanks and those that don't. I think there's a fair few who wouldn't even sing if we were 10-nil up against the Mancs.

BTW - You didn't happen to be in BLK 103 Row 27 did you?

I cant say i agree with that kind of vitriol directed at the players when at the matches but the point needs to be made that if the players were seen to be at least putting in 100% then the fans anger would dissipate to a large extent. To be 2 all against Havant at half time is disgraceful and embarassing.