A split on The Kop

[AFII]

It's very obvious that a few of the posters are placed in here by G&H just to try and get the fans around.

There are so many millions at stake so I guess that was just expected.

[Peatcheo]

I was in the Kop for the Wigan and Villa games and it had the most perculiar atmosphere.

[AFII]

It's very important that we show in our next game at Anfield that we still want G&H out despite their fancy new stadium that may or may not be built.

[enema of the state]

You know, for years there always been people who would DEMAND that you join in thier songs when they wanted, and that winds me up no end. Even if I did agree with everything RTK stand for (which I dont) they can **** off if they ever claim to represent me and i suspect many thousands of others. I never voted for the *******s, and never will!!

i, you and 90% of lfc supporters dont need anybody to tell us what to do or what to think

[enema of the state]

Protests during the game, when we're supposed to be enjoying a game of football and supporting our team are bang out of order IMO.

amen to that

[disco]

It's very obvious that a few of the posters are placed in here by G&H just to try and get the fans around.

There are so many millions at stake so I guess that was just expected.

[Barnyard]

It's very obvious that a few of the posters are placed in here by G&H just to try and get the fans around.

There are so many millions at stake so I guess that was just expected.

Funniest post i've seen for ages!

[Pablo]

Nick Harris: Anfield weighed down by £350m millstone
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Independent.co.uk Web



Liverpool spent more than three years looking for heavyweight backers to take them to the next level. They found a helium balloon. And it's tied to a skip.


The club's American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, can try to spin their £350m refinancing, announced yesterday, in any positive light they wish. That is their prerogative as the outfitters who dressed the emperor in new clothes.

But facts stand in the way of any claims that Liverpool are better off now than a year ago. At the bank? Absolutely not. On the pitch? No. Dressing-room morale? Hardly. On the terraces? You are joking, aren't you?

When David Moores (Liverpool's former 51 per cent owner) and Rick Parry (the chief executive) swallowed the Americans' assurances that they were big hitters with deep pockets, they were sold a pup. And the pup is threatening to disgrace itself on the 1892 antique carpet.

Here is what Gillett said in February last year, seeking to distance himself and Hicks from the kind of tactics the Glazer family used when buying Manchester United and ladening it with debt. "We have purchased the club with no debt on the club so, in that regard, it is different [to the Glazers]."

No longer true. It is the same as the Glazers, except that Hicks and Gillett, even now, have not put any of their own money in. Every cent, either spent so far or earmarked, has been borrowed.

At the time of the takeover, Liverpool had debts of £60m, some of that relating to the takeover itself. Hicks' and Gillett's refinancing involves transferring that, plus the £185m of debt they used to buy Liverpool, into a new £245m bundle owed to the Royal Bank of Scotland and Wachovia Bank via their Kop investment vehicle.

On top of that, Liverpool will have £105m of new debt – guaranteed against its assets – to start work on the stadium, and for working capital. Total: £350m debt, and Liverpool in hock to a greater extent than ever. Parry can take credit for persuading the Americans to shovel a chunk of the liabilities into a subsidiary pot. They wanted all £350m directly on Liverpool's books.

But the reddest of herrings is that Hicks and Gillett are providing "owner cash, letters of credit and personal guarantees" against £225m of the £245m bundle. What does that actually mean? It means Hicks and Gillett are personally responsible for that cash, and will be keener than ever to skim any Liverpool profits to repay it. It does not mean they will stump up so much as a fiver of their hard-earned to buy any players or masonry.

Herein lies the risk, to the owners and the club. Liverpool are not cash cows on the scale of Manchester United or Arsenal. Their most profitable season was 2004-05, with pre-tax profits of £9.46m. The next year they lost £5m on a turnover of £119m. Interest payments alone on £350m of debt will be around £25m a year before capital repayments start. And that is before around £250m more is borrowed to pay for the new stadium, although that loan, in fairness, should fund itself via naming rights, sponsorship and ticket sales.

The financial figures for 2006-07 should look good because of last season's Champions' League run. But any stutters from here on in – like failing to be consistent top-table European participants – and things could look sticky. The finance is crucial. It underpins everything. It is the reason that Moores and Parry spent years courting potential investors.

"After much careful consideration, I have agreed to sell my shares to assist in securing the investment needed for the new stadium and for the playing squad," Moores said when he sold his shares for £89.6m. Moores and his fellow former owners did not want to borrow that investment themselves. The Americans did. And Liverpool have gone from Premier League also-rans, pootling along financially, to Premier League also-rans pootling deeper into the red.

What they said... and what happened

George Gillett, Feb 2007: "[Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher] spoke extremely warmly about Rafa and made us aware that they feel this man is truly one of the great geniuses in the recent history of the sport."

Since: Interview Jürgen Klinnsman behind Rafa Benitez's back.

George Gillett, Feb 2007: "The first spade will start going into the ground on that [stadium] project by March [2007]." Since: Work yet to start.

George Gillett, Feb 2007: "We have purchased the club with no debt on the club so, in that regard, it is different [to the Glazers' buyout]."

Since: £105m debt on the club's books. (£60m previously).

Tom Hicks, Feb 2007: "It was not a question of money, it was a question of 'Are we the proper custodians?' and I believe we are ... Over the next 30 years I'll be happy to put a lot of my family's money into this club."

Since: No money up front from either Hicks' or Gillett's own reserves.

Rick Parry, Feb 2007: "The partnership created by George and Tom is a very special one. They're bringing to the table... real resources and a strong commitment and understanding of the traditions of Liverpool."

Since: Real resources of £350m borrowed money


These cunts will be the death of this club, and to sit there and say "oh well, singing songs won't do anything" is bollocks.

We need to do everything possible to get rid of these two lying *******s.

100% agree. Although there are certain people that will never believe this even if an accountant handed them the clubs figures and spent an hour talking them through it all. Some of if is sticking their head in the sand hoping it will go away. Some of it is denial, they just cant bare to face the truth. Some of it is naivity and optimism. Some of it is just plain stupidity.

I must admit RTK protests during the game does sit uneasily with me, and that there must be a better way, but we need to do something. They are destroying our club and you are blind if you fail to see that.

[disco]

100% agree. Although there are certain people that will never believe this even if an accountant handed them the clubs figures and spent an hour talking them through it all.

I'd love to be able to see the figures and accounts

I can't see how anyone can come up with a solid conclusion without them, save the fact that banks don't lend hundreds of millions without a strong business case!

[Ketario]

Takes name

[Ketario]

Funniest post i've seen for ages!

And another

[Armchairkopite]

your talking out yer arse.
what vote?
how did they demand?
Personally i think they have made a huge difference this year and i hope when its opened up in the summer a lot more people move their st's up there.
comparing games from this year to any in previous years bar man/everton the ndifference in atmosphere/noise level has been a million times better.
whether you agree with their stance on the yanks or not,they are trying to improve the atmosphere and most of the time thats what they do.
at least thet are trying which is a lot more than can be said for a lot of people.

People on here and recent surveys certainly don't suggest that in fact its the opposite.

Ive seen no difference in the atmosphere in fact its probably worse this season than ever, i can hear the ****in players most games now! Even the Man U game wasnt much of an atmos. All i really hear is individuals slagging players off and muted singin from the Kop for about 5 minutes a game.

The songs i'm on about are the likes of we don't carry bottles, those were the days etc. glorifying hooliganism. And we'd walk a million miles oh kenny etc. Singing about players who haven't played for twenty years when we never sing for half the current team

As for the atmosphere, you are kidding yourself if you think it is any better this year. It's just the same as it has been for a few years now, crap unless it's a big game or it's tight and they need our support for the last twenty mins. I admire the effort of rtk, but they are not the answer.

I don't know the old songs to be honest but if they do reflect glorifying hooliganism as mentioned i think its pathetic, lets move on.

in reagrds to singing about past players
does that mean we should just forget classics like pst or fields of anny rd?
nothing wrong with honouring past greats.
there has always been great players who didnt have songs.
agree with you re dont carry bottles etc but i still persist it is better.
you have to remember there is only a few hundred up there trying
you cant blame them when 44k are silent.

Ronan you can persist its better all you like but imo these older songs are not going to help the atmospere too much and they haven't done, a lot of fans probably don't know the words to them as well which is going to make it harder for the whole ground to join in.

I'd love to be able to see the figures and accounts

I can't see how anyone can come up with a solid conclusion without them, save the fact that banks don't lend hundreds of millions without a strong business case!

I'm sure there was a strong business case for Corinthians and he sank them didn't he.

[Kilteragh]

This season, for the first time ever, I've been to a game at Anfield where I have not sung a single song

What is wrong with you? If nobody is singing you start the ****ing song yourself.

[Johnny]

I think the protest will die a death, for the time being anyway. We now know where we are finance and stadium wise and nobody knows for sure what implications this is going to have for us. I think everyone needs to take a step back, and see how we go for the rest of the season. In that time we should have a better indication of what the manager's position is and we should see work on the ground start. We'll look a bit daft if we start doing the business on the pitch and the owners make the funds available for that to happen.

I only have one gripe with the owners and that's the Klinnsman business. Not the fact that they did it behind Rafa's back (the same happens with every managerial change), just that they were thinking of putting an inexperienced club manager at the helm.

rumour has it that they also checked out Jose.he had the credentials.



P.S. I hate the cunt,but he could`ve done the job If Rafa had left in November.

[Fiddy]

It's very obvious that a few of the posters are placed in here by G&H just to try and get the fans around.

There are so many millions at stake so I guess that was just expected.

Post of the week