Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[breffniboy]

It's easy, he won the European Cup. It has insulated him from major criticism ever since and it continues to anesthetise the fans to this day because it stands as a beacon of the level people believe he can win trophies. That's what he has in his credit column - in the mounting debit column are all the things listed in the original post and maybe a few more. But alot of people are still getting their sums wrong where Rafa is concerned.

Just as with Houllier, a fundamentally and stubbornly negative and suffocating brand of science masquerading as football has brought us to a certain point, plateau'd and is now on the downwards slide. It will end in his removal by new owners at the end of the season and hopefully his replacement with a manager committed to positive, attacking football in keeping with the club's tradition, instead of the bland, banal, opposition-obsessed brand of brinkmanship we get now.

A few cup wins from GH and RB have totally diluted the fans' idea of the type of football this club should be playing, we will suffer anything if it brings us no 19 but you will never win a league title in England sending your teams out to win games by trying not to concede the first goal so you can 'control the game.'

[Reaper]

Hands up all those of you that play football to (what most would consider) a decent level?

[Rafa Shankly]

Hmm, well contenders...possibly.

I'm not sure we've genuinely contended for the title, but yes, i did think we WERE 'contenders' a few months ago.

and we never will until were on the same playing field as the mancs and chavs,thats not rafas fault.
hate to use the money excuse,but its not an excuse,its the truth.

making us a top 4 team is as much as he could be expected to do,and he has done it.

[Fowler_God]

That's the key point, it's now gone beyond the fact that we're light years off a title challenge. We now cant even comfortably beat lower division sides at home (or even draw with them, where Barnsley are concerned).

Rafa MUST take his portion of the blame, but there are still some who dont seem like they'd attach ANY blame to him. It's staggering.

I dont think anyone is saying Rafa is invincible. People are taking a balanced view and understand where we have come from and the difficulties Rafa has had to deal with

Look at this chart for the 1st 4 seasons for Rafa, Wenger and Fergscum

Fergscum won 1 trophy is 1st 4 years.
Wenger won the double and then won **** all for the next 2. Wenger was allowed time because of the double, it paid off.
Rafa should be allowed time after 2 champion league finals, it will pay off

[SRR]

If we're going to turn to the players, then fair enough. I'll ask you this though...who buys them and who should be motivating them to GIVE 100%?

As for 'first choice targets', the rule there is simple. If you cant get the right player, dont go and buy the wrong player and assume it'll have the same impact.

As i've answered your question, here's one for you...

What IS rafa's fault?

Read my reply again. I said Rafa is not perfect and does make mistakes.

With all due respect the money they are being paid each week should be motivation enough for those players. Wearing the Liverbird on their chest should be motivation enough. Walking out at Anfield should be motivation enough. 40,000+ paying fans should be motivation enough.

[SRR]

We stopped doing nicely after we beat derby mate. I dont think anything had really kicked off upstairs by then.

So what was the press conference after the CL final then?

[Craig_H]

They're professionals on stupid money, they shouldn't need motivating

You really think the money is a motivational tool? That's absurdly off the mark.

They get paid regardless. If they win and score, they get bonuses (which are tiny, compared to their weekly wage and signing on fee). Money is the last thing that's an issue here.

If you think they dont need motivating because they earn a fortune, then you're miles off the mark. I'm genuinely stunned that you think the money makes any difference.

Every sports person needs motivating at some point or another. Regardless of money. If today had been Inter Milan in the CL, or the mancs or bitters, then perhaps i too would say they dont need motivating. Because those big games act as the motivator on their own. But for games like today, where it's 'only' Barnsley, i'm not surprised that motivation levels are low. It's not a big game, and the players subconscious can easily slip into 'cant be arsed' mode. That's no good thing, but it's human nature, to an extent. At that point, the manager needs to motivate them, to get them going and WANTING it.

[Craig_H]

Hands up all those of you that play football to (what most would consider) a decent level?

What relevance does that have?

[red g]

1986-90: Dodgey beginnings

Ferguson's first job was to lift United away from the foot of the Division One table after Ron Atkinson's reign had saw the club drift into trouble and slump to 19th - one place above the relegation zone. The size of the task ahead was demonstrated immediately a day after his appointment. Fergie began his United mission with a 2-0 League defeat away to little Oxford United on 8th November. By January 1987 he had steadied the ship and the club was in mid-table, eventually finishing 11th.

Nonetheless major problems remained at Old Trafford. United's reputation as a boozing club was not without foundation and the Scot tackled the situation head-on. In addition, he revamped the youth team system, a decision that would repay a hundred fold. He paid minute attention to every detail of club life, "first to arrive and last to leave" was his attitude.

Former United star Mark Hughes returned from Barcelona, defender Steve Bruce came from Norwich and Scottish striker Brian McClair was bought to score some much needed goals. McClair would get 24 goals in his first year becoming the first player since George Best to score over 20 United League goals in a season. In 1987-88 United were well adrift of the then champions, Liverpool, but finished an admirable second with 81 points being a total that would have won the title on other seasons.

1988-89 saw record £2.3 million signing Gary Pallister and midfielder Paul Ince arrive but the season brought dour anti-climax as the Reds finished 11th in the table, below the likes of Millwall, QPR and Derby. After the progress of the second place finish in 1988, fans had the distinct feeling that things were going backwards. The side was hard working, methodical and dull while Fergie's cautious approach did not win the United faithful over. There was now growing doubt over whether Fergie was the man to turn United into Championship contenders.
Stretford End favorites Norman Whiteside and Paul McGrath were sold because of alcohol problems, they no longer fitted in with the new disciplined attitude Ferguson demanded. They were soon followed by Gordon Strachen, but this clear-out of quality players had a detrimental effect on the team. By January 1990 United were struggling at the foot of the table and chants of "Fergie Out" began to issue from stands and terraces, especially after a humiliating 5-1 defeat at Man City in September 1989.

Martin Edwards always denies it, but Fergie's job was on a knife-edge and it all came to a head in the 3rd Round FA Cup game away to Nottingham Forest. If United lost Fergie would have been sacked, no question about it. If the same situation had occured in today's high pressure football world Fergie would have gone long before then. However, luckily for United, despite a disallowed Forest goal, Mark Robbins struck the winner and United had a narrow 1-0 win.

United went on to put a great run together and win the FA Cup that season, playing every round away from home. After an epic 3-3 draw with Crystal Palace in the final at Wembley, it took a replay where defender Lee Martin scored the decisive goal in a 1-0 victory that gave Ferguson his first Manchester United trophy. Fergie now had some breathing space with the fans and board alike.




1990-93: Two cups then the League

Ferguson then set about trying to end United's long wait for the League title. However there was time for more cups. The European Cup Winners' Cup was won in 1991 with a great 2-1 victory over Barcelona and in 1992 the League Cup with a 1-0 win over Nottingham Forest. United had begun to play once more with the attacking flair the club was famous for, meanwhile the influential Denis Irwin, Ryan Giggs, Peter Schmeichel arrived on the scene.

Yet, Ferguson still couldn't bring the title to Old Trafford. When it finally seemed in their grasp after a successful run in 1992 which saw United at the top of the table in mid-April, a late collapse handed it to rivals Leeds United after a dreadful 2-0 Sunday defeat at Anfield. Ferguson was criticised and many fans and pundits thought United and Fergie were destined never to wear the crown of champions.


Once again they underestimated Alex Ferguson's powers and United soon returned to form at the start of the next season. The real turning point came in November 1993 with the unplanned arrival of Leeds hero Eric Cantona, whom he signed after a chance inquiry made when the Leeds chairman telephoned about signing Denis Irwin. That chance inquiry would shape English football for 5 glorious years to come.

The way the canny Scot capitalised on that good fortune, realising that the brilliant French maverick must be the centre of his team, was inspired. Adopting an approach that, outwardly at least, was more relaxed, he finally secured the prize for which Manchester United had pined so painfully. Surging to the title over nearest rivals Aston Villa, and playing some sublime football along the way, 26 years waiting ended on the 2nd May 1993 and United were the League Champions at last.

[Rafa Shankly]

What relevance does that have?

answer it and you may find out.

[Craig_H]

and we never will until were on the same playing field as the mancs and chavs,thats not rafas fault.
hate to use the money excuse,but its not an excuse,its the truth.

making us a top 4 team is as much as he could be expected to do,and he has done it.

Forget the mancs and chavs, we cant beat barnsley and struggle against Luton and Havant. Mediocre average sides are coming to anfield and going home with a point.

So forget the title...why cant we beat those sides? Why cant we finish comfortably in the top four?

[pezzzer]

i think jol's position at spurs can be quite a close comparison

he to went into this season with high hopes from last year
he to made major signings which (stand up, mr bent) have let him down
he to was caused the embarassment of knowing that the owners wanted and approached another manager which made his position untenable and he walked.

my point is rafa stayed because he knows that the yank jokers will be running like frenchmen when they get there ill gotten gains

i'm not blaming our disgraceful secon third of the season all on the boardroom antics as rafa in many cases has simply got the tactics wrong

i personally would give rafa 1 more year with dic at the helm and a transfer budget to dwarf manures for once, give him 4 first choice players to sign without quibbling over the amount.

i think after that night in may,he deserves his chance to redeem himself after the shambles we have all had to endure with the boardroom.
YNWA

[Craig_H]

I dont think anyone is saying Rafa is invincible. People are taking a balanced view and understand where we have come from and the difficulties Rafa has had to deal with

Look at this chart for the 1st 4 seasons for Rafa, Wenger and Fergscum

Fergscum won 1 trophy is 1st 4 years.
Wenger won the double and then won **** all for the next 2. Wenger was allowed time because of the double, it paid off.
Rafa should be allowed time after 2 champion league finals, it will pay off

Mate, forget comparisons with Wenger and Fergie. I'm not fussed about them.

If we dont have the money to compete with them, so be it. Let's just do as much as we're capable of. Which, for me, is finishing in the top four without much trouble and, given the draws we've had, currently being in the last 8 of the cup.

[Craig_H]

Read my reply again. I said Rafa is not perfect and does make mistakes.

With all due respect the money they are being paid each week should be motivation enough for those players. Wearing the Liverbird on their chest should be motivation enough. Walking out at Anfield should be motivation enough. 40,000+ paying fans should be motivation enough.

Once again, the money is irrelevant. When you have millions, it ceases to mean anything. Wearing the shirt should motivate them, as should walking out in front of the Kop. But it doesnt. That's where the manager needs to earn HIS money.

At what point does it come down to the manager? You havent answered this. And you didnt answer my question at the end of my last post - what IS rafa's fault?

[Craig_H]

answer it and you may find out.

It has no relevance whatsoever. Wenger never made it as a high-level professional, neither did Rafa.

You seem to be implying that unless someone has played professional football at a decent level, they're not equipped to have a valid opinion. If that IS what you're suggesting, then it's a bizarre suggestion.