Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Diego]

Mods, please dont merge this or lock it, it's purely intended to ask the couple of questions at the end...

Ok, let's set the scene here. No abuse, no arsey-ness, just a genuine set of observations and then a few questions...

19 points off the top of the league.
Probable 20+ point defecit by the end of the season.
Struggle to finish 4th.
Struggle to knock Luton out of the cup.
Given a scare by part timers.
Dumped out at home by Barnsley.
No title challenge in four years.
Strange team selections.
Odd substitutions.
Bizarre systems.
Players playing out of position.
Persisting with flops.
Arguably boring football.

So, with the above in mind, a few questions...

Is it EVER Rafa's fault, or has ANYTHING been his fault? If so, what?
WILL anything ever be his fault?
At what point SHOULD he have to be made accountable for his actions?
Is there anything that could happen or any point that would make you think "Time for him to go" ? If so, what?
If he's not at fault, who is and why?
If he hasnt been given enough money to challenge for the league, what's the excuse for struggling against Luton, Havant and losing to Barnsley?
Or are the players 'not good enough' to beat those sides (and finish 4th)?

From what i've seen posted, it strikes me that for some posters, it's never simply his fault, which seems odd. So i was curious and was hoping to get some stuff clarified.

Thanks.

i personally think he is to blame for some of the misfortunes we've had this season, i also blame other factors such as our situation with the owners, key players are to blame as well. but part of it is rafas fault, i however think that our misfortunes this season are just that and they will remain this season i think he has proven himself worthy of at least on more season properly funded and i think if given the money he will deliver...

[Joey Jones]

No offence mate, but that comes across as head-in-the-sand.

It's possible it's not the manager, but we're clutching at straws there, it's no coincidence that he makes odd decisions and, funnily enough, we dont challenge for the title.

It comes down to this for me, nothing more and nothing less - the squad is EASILY good enough to finish top four and yet, it's a struggle. It shouldnt be and ultimately, there's one man who must take the lion's share of the responsibility, and that's rafa.

It's funny but people hail rafa as a genius and use Istanbul for evidence.
If he takes credit for getting it right, he has to be responsible for when it goes wrong too. People use results and achievements as evidence of his ability, but when results and achievements (or lack thereof) paint a darker picture, it's then somehow anything else's fault, but not rafa's.

Cant have it both ways.

That's spot on mate.

[Rafa Shankly]

No offence mate, but that comes across as head-in-the-sand.

It's possible it's not the manager, but we're clutching at straws there, it's no coincidence that he makes odd decisions and, funnily enough, we dont challenge for the title.

It comes down to this for me, nothing more and nothing less - the squad is EASILY good enough to finish top four and yet, it's a struggle. It shouldnt be and ultimately, there's one man who must take the lion's share of the responsibility, and that's rafa.

It's funny but people hail rafa as a genius and use Istanbul for evidence.
If he takes credit for getting it right, he has to be responsible for when it goes wrong too. People use results and achievements as evidence of his ability, but when results and achievements (or lack thereof) paint a darker picture, it's then somehow anything else's fault, but not rafa's.

Cant have it both ways.

were going around in circles mate.
your not willing to give rafa the benefit of the doubt,i am,that doesnt mean i have my head in the sand.

if things improve drastically next season and rafa keeps his job but still were under achieving,then my attitude towards him may change.

until then,im giving him and the players the benefit of the doubt.

[Rafa Shankly]

That's spot on mate.

no its not,its far from spot on.

when have we had so much turmoil going on at the club?

[SRR]

I meant in general. And yes, in most cases, the factors mentioned should help motivate them, but when heads are down and confidence is low, the manager has to change that. People slate Jose Mourinho, but his psychological influence on players was excellent, he got into the players minds and made them firmly believe they were unbeatable. Fergie did the same for United - hence the amount of times they scored in the last minute to win - they never gave up, never let their heads drop. The same cannot be said for us. The body langauge is wrong, there's not any fight or drive for success.

As has been mentioned already, the fact that rafa cant seem to change this suggests that the players have also lost faith in him...or they already know he wont be there next season.

Nail on the head there and that is where a lot of the problems stem from. Whether the players agree with him or not, have lost faith him etc and regardless of whether he will be in charge or not next season they should still be going out on the pitch giving 100% and at the minute they are not.

[Craig_H]

Fair enough Rafa Shankly...

I suppose with that username, you have to back him

[Reaper]

What relevance does that have?

Dont answer a question with a question

[Rafa Shankly]

Heads are down and confidence is shot to pieces. We still have to play at United and Arsenal. I dont think we'll achieve it at a canter. I'd take just scraping it on the final day of the season to be honest, given how things are going.

what you mean like arsenal did a couple of seasons ago?

[Craig_H]

no its not,its far from spot on.

when have we had so much turmoil going on at the club?

See, that's what i mean about always finding excuses...

Chelsea were in a bit of a mess when Mourinho went, fans were devestated and the focus was on off-field issues. Avram Grant has still kept them up there and challenging though.

[Shanks]

Things have never been the same since Pako left.

[Craig_H]

what you mean like arsenal did a couple of seasons ago?

If Rafa had won us a few league titles, gone a few years never finishing out of the top two and won a double, i'd have no problem with the current plight.

He hasnt though, has he? So comparing to Wenger and Arsenal is hardly like-for-like.

[Craig_H]

Dont answer a question with a question

Ok...

I dont think that has any relevance.

Better?

What relevance DOES it have then? I'm intrigued.

[Joey Jones]

no its not,its far from spot on.

when have we had so much turmoil going on at the club?

It is a fair point.

The comeback in Istanbul was down to Rafa's 1/2 time team talk. So credit (deservedly) goes to him.

We lose today and in my opinion it's down to Rafa because he's the manager, he picks the team.

And by the way I'm not anti Rafa and I agree that the turmoil behind the scenes is having an effect on the side but how long can we use that excuse for?

[Kenneth]

Blaming Hicks is fine, but I don't think it explains results like drawing at home with Birmingham, or losing at home to Marseille. It hadn't kicked off then. We've been **** for ages, long before Klinsmann etc.

[Rafa Shankly]

See, that's what i mean about always finding excuses...

Chelsea were in a bit of a mess when Mourinho went, fans were devestated and the focus was on off-field issues. Avram Grant has still kept them up there and challenging though.

cmon mate,no where near to what has gone on at liverpool.

a far superior squad lost a manager and replaced him with an adaquit replacement.

thats all that has happened,they wernt struggling when jose went.

to even suggest them losing a manager to what has gone on here is comparable is ridiculous mate.