Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Ron_Mexico]

You really think the money is a motivational tool? That's absurdly off the mark.

They get paid regardless. If they win and score, they get bonuses (which are tiny, compared to their weekly wage and signing on fee). Money is the last thing that's an issue here.

If you think they dont need motivating because they earn a fortune, then you're miles off the mark. I'm genuinely stunned that you think the money makes any difference.

Every sports person needs motivating at some point or another. Regardless of money. If today had been Inter Milan in the CL, or the mancs or bitters, then perhaps i too would say they dont need motivating. Because those big games act as the motivator on their own. But for games like today, where it's 'only' Barnsley, i'm not surprised that motivation levels are low. It's not a big game, and the players subconscious can easily slip into 'cant be arsed' mode. That's no good thing, but it's human nature, to an extent. At that point, the manager needs to motivate them, to get them going and WANTING it.

i never said money was a motivational tool, i meant that our players are "earning" top money because they are supposedly at the top of their profession. if they are true professionals, worth all that money, then they should be able to motivate themselves when playing at anfield for liverpool in the FA cup, no matter the opposition.

you don't know what goes on in the dressing room, how rafa works in there, or what effect he has on the team when they're 'down,' so how can you criticize something you know nothing about? how do you know he isn't giving them the hairdryer in the dressing room only for them to respond like a wet fart?

my point is since they are top professionals on top money, they shouldn't need any motivation when they're getting shown up by a lesser team. they should have enough personal pride, as well as pride in playing for liverpool, to pull their heads out of their arses and give 100%

good effort twisting my words and taking your famous patronising tone though

[Craig_H]

cmon mate,no where near to what has gone on at liverpool.

a far superior squad lost a manager and replaced him with an adaquit replacement.

thats all that has happened,they wernt struggling when jose went.

to even suggest them losing a manager to what has gone on here is comparable is ridiculous mate.

The point is mate, off field stuff shouldnt stop the manager picking the right players, using the right system, playing them in the right position and motivating them. It just shouldnt.

[Rafa Shankly]

If Rafa had won us a few league titles, gone a few years never finishing out of the top two and won a double, i'd have no problem with the current plight.

He hasnt though, has he? So comparing to Wenger and Arsenal is hardly like-for-like.

some how i doubt that mate,i think youd still find fault.

[Rafa Shankly]

The point is mate, off field stuff shouldnt stop the manager picking the right players, using the right system, playing them in the right position and motivating them. It just shouldnt.

why not?

[SRR]

See, that's what i mean about always finding excuses...

Chelsea were in a bit of a mess when Mourinho went, fans were devestated and the focus was on off-field issues. Avram Grant has still kept them up there and challenging though.

Would it be easier if we all agreed that Rafa is at fault and the off-field issues are having no effect at all?

It's not about making excuses all the time it is making observations. At the minute we have the are we or are we not about to be sold episode and for good measure we have the is he or is he not got to be manager episode as well.

[Craig_H]

some how i doubt that mate,i think youd still find fault.

Nah i wouldnt. I know me better than anyone on here does.

[Ron_Mexico]

granted rafa is often too negative with his tactics, makes baffling team selections (kuyt), and makes ridiculous substitutions all too often- i would guess that these issues undermine the motivation of the players more than any lack of motivational skills on rafa's part

i know in my playing days it would piss me off if the manager just changed things for the sake of fitness rather than paying attention to form or the best team. when it starts costing you results then you start losing faith in the manager and the motivation to try hard to earn a place isn't there because it seems like earning a place based on performance isn't part of the criteria to get into the team

[Craig_H]

why not?

Because it doesnt have an impact on Rafa's ability to choose the right players, right systems, right positions and right tactics.

[Mattshark]

I blame Thatcher.

[Craig_H]

Would it be easier if we all agreed that Rafa is at fault and the off-field issues are having no effect at all?

It's not about making excuses all the time it is making observations. At the minute we have the are we or are we not about to be sold episode and for good measure we have the is he or is he not got to be manager episode as well.

How do they have an impact on whether he can pick the right team, with the right system & tactics etc?

[The Erectile Banana]

It's easy, he won the European Cup. It has insulated him from major criticism ever since and it continues to anesthetise the fans to this day because it stands as a beacon of the level people believe he can win trophies. That's what he has in his credit column - in the mounting debit column are all the things listed in the original post and maybe a few more. But alot of people are still getting their sums wrong where Rafa is concerned.

Just as with Houllier, a fundamentally and stubbornly negative and suffocating brand of science masquerading as football has brought us to a certain point, plateau'd and is now on the downwards slide. It will end in his removal by new owners at the end of the season and hopefully his replacement with a manager committed to positive, attacking football in keeping with the club's tradition, instead of the bland, banal, opposition-obsessed brand of brinkmanship we get now.

A few cup wins from GH and RB have totally diluted the fans' idea of the type of football this club should be playing, we will suffer anything if it brings us no 19 but you will never win a league title in England sending your teams out to win games by trying not to concede the first goal so you can 'control the game.'

I find myself agreeing with this more than anything else that has been posted on here recently.

I've been a big fan of Rafa and have backed him all the way until now but I must reluctantly agree with your point.

[SRR]

How do they have an impact on whether he can pick the right team, with the right system & tactics etc?

Whether he picks the right team with the right tactics or not has no effect when you have players that don't give a 100%. On paper the team that started today was more than capable of beating Barnsley and you could say the same about other games we should have won as well.

[Skillz]

So, with the above in mind, a few questions...

Is it EVER Rafa's fault, or has ANYTHING been his fault? If so, what? Perhaps takes too long to change things this season. Stays loyal to players for to long. Not the greatest attacking (final third) coach.
WILL anything ever be his fault? Stupid question, considering the one above.

At what point SHOULD he have to be made accountable for his actions? Revise at end of season.

Is there anything that could happen or any point that would make you think "Time for him to go" ? If so, what? If he lost the dressing room

If he's not at fault, who is and why? Our form at the moment I blame everyone at the club, owners, manager, medics, assistants, players
If he hasnt been given enough money to challenge for the league, what's the excuse for struggling against Luton, Havant and losing to Barnsley?
Or are the players 'not good enough' to beat those sides (and finish 4th)?

They are clearly good enough, last night should not of even been close considering the chances we created. We are starting to play better and dig ourselves out of a shocking patch of form, however certain players are in woeful form or far too inconsistent eg Kuyt , Crouch, Carra, Riise etc. Experienced players too that are having very poor years by their standards.

From what i've seen posted, it strikes me that for some posters, it's never simply his fault, which seems odd. So i was curious and was hoping to get some stuff clarified.

Last night was hardly Rafa's fault IMO. He put out a strong team and had them playing as well as they have for some time. Barnesly defended heroicly at times and it wasn't to be.

Thanks. No probs

[Craig_H]

Whether he picks the right team with the right tactics or not has no effect when you have players that don't give a 100%. On paper the team that started today was more than capable of beating Barnsley and you could say the same about other games we should have won as well.

Ok, i agree there. I go back to the point about motivation - something he doesnt seem to be very good at.

[Shaggy]

I find myself agreeing with this more than anything else that has been posted on here recently.

I've been a big fan of Rafa and have backed him all the way until now but I must reluctantly agree with your point.

Yeah it was a really good post. Hurts to be in agreement with it, frankly, but he hit the nail on the head.