Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Craig_H]

I tell you why people take a militant pro-Rafa stance on here DJS, to the extent that it forces you to pidgeon-hole them as RCDNW? It's to counter the constant stream of anti-Rafa bile that you and others of your ilk spout.

I am prepared to admit Rafa's failings, which I do think are fundamental and which I would hope he would alter in order to get us moving in the right direction. But likewise I feel the need to defend him from some of the vitriol that for some reason he attracts from fans of the club.

Vitriol? Bit melodramatic here. Nobody's being anti-rafa. We're being pro LFC. We just dont think he's got what it takes, simple as that. What evidence is there to suggest that, after 4 years of not learning, he's suddenly going to change? Realistically?

I'm sticking my neck out and saying i dont think he'll change, and wont get us properly challenging. Consequently, i dont think he should remain in the job, because i dont think we're achieving what we're capable of with him at the helm. What's vitriolic about that?

[Craig_H]

I'd be very careful Dhavlos. Certain people on here have played at a very high level in the game. Some have even played in the paralympics.

And i get accused of being patronising and antagonistic...dear me.

[Dhav]

I think it could have been better worded in the sense that questions like 'Will it ever be his fault?' do seem to imply that those of a different view point are stupid, whether that is the intention or not.

However in general I think there is a valid point in someone who has strong doubts about Rafa wanting to know why others are supportive of him. In our current situation I think the default for supporters of most teams would be to be calling for the managers head. The reaction here and in the wider spread of LFC fans I have talked to is however very mixed.

The thread has been the traditional mixture of insight, bitching and banality. I think possibly we would all benefit from being a little less aggressive in our opinions sometimes.

I agree with you mate, DJS has raised some valid qns, but the way he has worded it has irked me a lot. He suggests that there are people on here who believe every decision of Rafa's is 100% right and believe that he is 100% blameless for everything going wrong at the moment. That, quite patently, is nonsensical.

[Robster007]

Yes they have, but they've also WON the title a good few times and look like doing it again this season. What is your point?

Nobody will win it or challenge for it EVERY single season, of course it can be cyclical. Our 'cycle' doesnt seem to be coming around, it's been nearly 20 years now.

We havent challenged once under rafa. Surely you can see the difference between HIS PL achievements and wenger's?

My point is that you said Wenger has challenged for the PL every season and Rafa hasn't. That clearly can't be right as Wengers team has finished below us for the past 2 seasons, so you're talking out of your arse.

Again i'll use Fergie as a yardstick as to what can be achieved when you persist with a manager through lean times. He needs to be given a chance to finish his project with us. The youth set up, more money to buy the players he really wants so he doesn't lose out on the likes of Vidic and Alves because of a couple of million etc.

Out of interest, how long has Wenger been the Arsenal manager, and how many titles has he won? How many titles did Fergie win in his first 7 seasons? Lastly, who do YOU think we should bring in A) to replace Rafa, B) to replace the players who will leave when he does and C) to start yet another rebuild of the club.

I'm very interested to hear what you think on these points.

[Dhav]

I'd be very careful Dhavlos. Certain people on here have played at a very high level in the game. Some have even played in the paralympics.

[wavydavy]

They've finished below us for the past 2 seasons though.

You have to give Wenger credit for recognising that Henry was part of the problem and for getting rid of him against huge opposition from the fans. I doubt if Rafa would have such courage given his measured, shrewd philosophy on the game.

[stevie_gerrard_8]

Jose Mourinho.

Inetresting and controversial choice. Im not going to say no because of his attitude etc.
However there a few question marks over him.
Can he build a successful team in England with a limited amount of money? We have seen at Chelsea that as soon as he was given a budget, his team faltered.


Can he play attacking attractive football?

However, what he is good at is motivating, something that i feel we badly miss, ever since Pako left.

[Craig_H]

I agree with you mate, DJS has raised some valid qns, but the way he has worded it has irked me a lot. He suggests that there are people on here who believe every decision of Rafa's is 100% right and believe that he is 100% blameless for everything going wrong at the moment. That, quite patently, is nonsensical.

Dhavlos, whether you see it or not, there ARE people who simply never blame Rafa for anything. I've seen it. There's ALWAYS some other reason, someone else to blame. I've not labelled YOU in that group, but for some reason, you seem to have been irked by it.

[Robster007]

You have to give Wenger credit for recognising that Henry was part of the problem and for getting rid of him against huge opposition from the fans. I doubt if Rafa would have such courage given his measured, shrewd philosophy on the game.

I agree with that, but can you imagine the reaction of the fans if Rafa got rid of Gerrard (something I think he needs to do personally).

[Dhav]

Dhavlos, whether you see it or not, there ARE people who simply never blame Rafa for anything. I've seen it. There's ALWAYS some other reason, someone else to blame. I've not labelled YOU in that group, but for some reason, you seem to have been irked by it.

Deej, I dont believe there are people like that on here, I believe you have misread their posts or misread the intentions behind the posts. I do believe that you have that impression because people feel the need to defend him very passionately because of the over the top criticism he attracts.

There are people at the match who think they are the only ones that see what is wrong about Rafa and that no one else sees it. I assure them and you that is not the case. Everyone can see what is wrong and what is going wrong, it's just some of us prefer to show support, rather than indulge in the over the top criticism.

[Robster007]

Deej, I dont believe there are people like that on here, I believe you have misread their posts or misread the intentions behind the posts. I do believe that you have that impression because people feel the need to defend him very passionately because of the over the top criticism he attracts.

There are people at the match who think they are the only ones that see what is wrong about Rafa and that no one else sees it. I assure them and you that is not the case. Everyone can see what is wrong and what is going wrong, it's just some of us prefer to show support, rather than indulge in the over the top criticism.

[Craig_H]

My point is that you said Wenger has challenged for the PL every season and Rafa hasn't.
That clearly can't be right as Wengers team has finished below us for the past 2 seasons, so you're talking out of your arse.

No i didnt say wenger has challenegd for the PL every season, i said he's challenged for it consistently. So, i'm afraid, it's you that is (as you eloquently put it) talking out of your arse.

Again i'll use Fergie as a yardstick as to what can be achieved when you persist with a manager through lean times. He needs to be given a chance to finish his project with us. The youth set up, more money to buy the players he really wants so he doesn't lose out on the likes of Vidic and Alves because of a couple of million etc.

I dont think the fergie example is relevant, because we're talking about a 20 year gap in time, and football's vastly different now.

That aside, the problem is that, as well as the enforced obstacles rafa has to deal with, he constructs his own. He makes daft decisions, picks unnecessarily weaker sides, makes odd subs, doesnt pick a side regularly enough to obtain some stability and plays players out of position. He adjusts his own style to suit inferior opponents and is overly cautious.

That's his way, it's how he does things. No amount of financial backing will change his core ethos of how to manage his club. He's been this way for four years, why is it suddenly going to change?

The issue is that he doesnt use the players he HAS properly and i see no reason to think that his ethos would just change by simply having more money to spend.

And aside from ALL that...the squad we have now is EASILY good enough to finish 4th. It's easily good enough to batter Luton away, Havant and Barnsley. As well as Brum, Wigan, Reading etc etc...

But we dont do it. Why?

Do you think we're not good enough to beat those sides?

Either we arent good enough, or if we are, then rafa's not doing the business and it's his fault.

Out of interest, how long has Wenger been the Arsenal manager, and how many titles has he won? How many titles did Fergie win in his first 7 seasons? Lastly, who do YOU think we should bring in A) to replace Rafa, B) to replace the players who will leave when he does and C) to start yet another rebuild of the club.

I'm very interested to hear what you think on these points.

Wenger went a good few years finishing either 1st or 2nd. There's no comparison to be made, Wenger's record in the PL is beyond any question. As i said before fergie's first 7 seasons were many years ago, the game is totally different.

As for replacements, it's easy...Jose Mourinho. Regarding the players, they have contracts and there wouldnt be that much rebuilding to do.

I believe JM would get the best out of the players and they'd enjoy working with him, which they dont appear to be doing at the moment, if the body language is anything to go by.

[Craig_H]

Inetresting and controversial choice. Im not going to say no because of his attitude etc.
However there a few question marks over him.
Can he build a successful team in England with a limited amount of money? We have seen at Chelsea that as soon as he was given a budget, his team faltered.


Can he play attacking attractive football?

However, what he is good at is motivating, something that i feel we badly miss, ever since Pako left.

I dont think it was the 'limiting' of the money that cost him, i think it was largely due to the fact that he had 2 players he didnt want, and was nigh on forced to play them.

Chelsea played decent stuff and it was better than we are playing. The thing they did was, when they went 2-0 up, they didnt go for more goals. That's all it was.

As you say, he's a great motivator and he gets the players believing they're unbeatable. He gets into their heads and makes them feel invincible. Similar to Shanks in that respect. He's capable of getting the best of what he has.

[wavydavy]

My point is that you said Wenger has challenged for the PL every season and Rafa hasn't. That clearly can't be right as Wengers team has finished below us for the past 2 seasons, so you're talking out of your arse.

Again i'll use Fergie as a yardstick as to what can be achieved when you persist with a manager through lean times. He needs to be given a chance to finish his project with us. The youth set up, more money to buy the players he really wants so he doesn't lose out on the likes of Vidic and Alves because of a couple of million etc.

Out of interest, how long has Wenger been the Arsenal manager, and how many titles has he won? How many titles did Fergie win in his first 7 seasons? Lastly, who do YOU think we should bring in A) to replace Rafa, B) to replace the players who will leave when he does and C) to start yet another rebuild of the club.

I'm very interested to hear what you think on these points.

This statistic is becoming boring and is cited at every opportunity. Ferguson has been a phenomen at Old Trafford and shouldn't be compared to any other situation. Shankly went years winning **** all but that was in a different climate. Liverpool fans of that era were content just to watch and support the team. The period 1976-90 in some ways spoilt us with success and yes, to some extent, I think we may demand too much of our team. Maybe we should all marvel at how we stayed at the top of European footy for so long rather than wonder why we are now unable to do so. Giving a manager time IS important. But what if you've got the wrong guy in charge?
By this rationale if Middlesborough stick it out with Gareth Southgate for the next 5 years and back him sufficiently will they be challenging for the PL? I somehow doubt it.

[Craig_H]

Deej, I dont believe there are people like that on here, I believe you have misread their posts or misread the intentions behind the posts. I do believe that you have that impression because people feel the need to defend him very passionately because of the over the top criticism he attracts.

There are people at the match who think they are the only ones that see what is wrong about Rafa and that no one else sees it. I assure them and you that is not the case. Everyone can see what is wrong and what is going wrong, it's just some of us prefer to show support, rather than indulge in the over the top criticism.

That's fair enough, but i still fail to see two things...

1) What's over the top about saying i dont think he's the right man and therefore, i'd rather see him gone and the right man brought in?

2) If you see how wrong things are, why would you want them to continue in this manner? I dont get it.

I love rafa, but i love LFC more and if him leaving is best for LFC, then that's what i want.