Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Roboklopp]

I love Thommo but I think his style while more go forward contains too much long ball. We need someone who counter acts the bad tendencies of our current team (i.e. now when we need a different option we hoof to Crouch where we used to bring on the guile of Garcia and I want to go back). He was also by repute a disciplinarian which is not what I feel needs to be added to the team.

I think KK would want too much control and has been out of front line coaching for too long for me. If we ever need a director of football he would be first on my list though.

I would imagine the most likely place for someone to come from would be Spain and I have no idea of the coaches there. On a really off beam suggestion I think Vialli would be great but seems to like being retired too much. Another fantasy option would be Coppel.

I really do struggle to think. The thing is many of the best people are so low profile such as Boro Primorac at Arsenal. I know nothing about him but he has been the main hands on coach at Arsenal for years so he clearly knows his stuff.

Aye, it's not easy.

Patrice Bergues all over.

[ronniedrew]

I dont think it was the 'limiting' of the money that cost him, i think it was largely due to the fact that he had 2 players he didnt want, and was nigh on forced to play them.

Chelsea played decent stuff and it was better than we are playing. The thing they did was, when they went 2-0 up, they didnt go for more goals. That's all it was.

As you say, he's a great motivator and he gets the players believing they're unbeatable. He gets into their heads and makes them feel invincible. Similar to Shanks in that respect. He's capable of getting the best of what he has.

dont compare that ****wit porto c**t to shanks, he is a slimy , 2 faced, ****, who bought the title and constantly belittled us and our manager. turning chelsea into a hated club in the process. shanks was & is a legend

[tomasjj]

Mods, please dont merge this or lock it, it's purely intended to ask the couple of questions at the end...

Ok, let's set the scene here. No abuse, no arsey-ness, just a genuine set of observations and then a few questions...

19 points off the top of the league.
Probable 20+ point defecit by the end of the season.
Struggle to finish 4th.
Struggle to knock Luton out of the cup.
Given a scare by part timers.
Dumped out at home by Barnsley.
No title challenge in four years.
Strange team selections.
Odd substitutions.
Bizarre systems.
Players playing out of position.
Persisting with flops.
Arguably boring football.

So, with the above in mind, a few questions...

Is it EVER Rafa's fault, or has ANYTHING been his fault? If so, what?
WILL anything ever be his fault?
At what point SHOULD he have to be made accountable for his actions?
Is there anything that could happen or any point that would make you think "Time for him to go" ? If so, what?
If he's not at fault, who is and why?
If he hasnt been given enough money to challenge for the league, what's the excuse for struggling against Luton, Havant and losing to Barnsley?
Or are the players 'not good enough' to beat those sides (and finish 4th)?

From what i've seen posted, it strikes me that for some posters, it's never simply his fault, which seems odd. So i was curious and was hoping to get some stuff clarified.

Thanks.

:bird: :whatever: :bird: :whatever: :bird:


Oh.... did you come for an argument?

Sorry, but this is abuse.

[Craig_H]

dont compare that ****wit porto c**t to shanks, he is a slimy , 2 faced, ****, who bought the title and constantly belittled us and our manager. turning chelsea into a hated club in the process. shanks was & is a legend

Shanks did a fair bit of belittling to the opposition too. Difference is, he was ours - so we loved it. Double standards.

[Craig_H]

:bird: :whatever: :bird: :whatever: :bird:


Oh.... did you come for an argument?

Sorry, but this is abuse.

I'm used to abuse when people cant actually make a valid argument

[ronniedrew]

Shanks did a fair bit of belittling to the opposition too. Difference is, he was ours - so we loved it. Double standards.

double standards? dont think so.

i am sure shanks isnt too popular with the evertons of the world.

no , jose is a c**t, no double standards from me, i hate him

[stevie_gerrard_8]

I dont think it was the 'limiting' of the money that cost him, i think it was largely due to the fact that he had 2 players he didnt want, and was nigh on forced to play them.

Chelsea played decent stuff and it was better than we are playing. The thing they did was, when they went 2-0 up, they didnt go for more goals. That's all it was.

As you say, he's a great motivator and he gets the players believing they're unbeatable. He gets into their heads and makes them feel invincible. Similar to Shanks in that respect. He's capable of getting the best of what he has.

That's only because we are going through an extremely poor run of form. When we play well, you cant compare us to chelsea in the way we play.

[blacky]

They've finished below us for the past 2 seasons though.

That's because wenger takes risks. He puts faith in his youth. The likes of Clichy, Fabregas, Van Persie even Walcott have all been given 1st team exposure in the premiership. Short term Arsenal finished below us these 2 seasons but the dividends are showing now.

[dww]

That's only because we are going through an extremely poor run of form. When we play well, you cant compare us to chelsea in the way we play.

To be fair the season that Chelsea had a fully fit Duff and Robben they played some very very attractive football at times.

[Craig_H]

To be fair the season that Chelsea had a fully fit Duff and Robbe they played some very very attractive football at times.

I honestly think people mistake the lack of ambition (2-0 will do, no need to push on) for a lack of attractive football.

Chelsea used to win the game in 60 mins and then shut up shop. But for the 60 mins, they played good stuff.

[stevie_gerrard_8]

To be fair the season that Chelsea had a fully fit Duff and Robbe they played some very very attractive football at times.

But then again how much did Chelsea pay for them.

Obviously the scenario changes if DIC come in and pump money into the club, but that is for another day.

[Robster007]

No i didnt say wenger has challenegd for the PL every season, i said he's challenged for it consistently. So, i'm afraid, it's you that is (as you eloquently put it) talking out of your arse.

Surely the definition of consistency, well here it is:

Reliability or uniformity of successive results or events: pitched with remarkable consistency throughout the season.

2 seasons below us smacks of INCONSISTENCY.

If you actually look at their record, yes Wenger has won the league 3 times in 11 years, they haven't CONSISTENTLY challenged for the title. What say you?


I dont think the fergie example is relevant, because we're talking about a 20 year gap in time, and football's vastly different now.

Because it contradicts what you are trying to achieve and damages your agenda.

Football fans are vastly different now. I personally blame Rupert Murdoch.

That aside, the problem is that, as well as the enforced obstacles rafa has to deal with, he constructs his own. He makes daft decisions, picks unnecessarily weaker sides, makes odd subs, doesnt pick a side regularly enough to obtain some stability and plays players out of position. He adjusts his own style to suit inferior opponents and is overly cautious.

That's his way, it's how he does things. No amount of financial backing will change his core ethos of how to manage his club. He's been this way for four years, why is it suddenly going to change?

The issue is that he doesnt use the players he HAS properly and i see no reason to think that his ethos would just change by simply having more money to spend.

And aside from ALL that...the squad we have now is EASILY good enough to finish 4th. It's easily good enough to batter Luton away, Havant and Barnsley. As well as Brum, Wigan, Reading etc etc...

But we dont do it. Why?

Do you think we're not good enough to beat those sides?

Either we arent good enough, or if we are, then rafa's not doing the business and it's his fault.



Wenger went a good few years finishing either 1st or 2nd. There's no comparison to be made, Wenger's record in the PL is beyond any question. As i said before fergie's first 7 seasons were many years ago, the game is totally different.

11 players per team? A round ball? 2 goals? A centre circle? Or the generation of Sky Sports watchers and tabloid readers?

As for replacements, it's easy...Jose Mourinho. Regarding the players, they have contracts and there wouldnt be that much rebuilding to do.

I believe JM would get the best out of the players and they'd enjoy working with him, which they dont appear to be doing at the moment, if the body language is anything to go by.

I'm sure i've heard you comment previously on JM's lack of any semblance of class. He's about as far from what many would consider a Liverpool manager as it's possible to be.

[stevie_gerrard_8]

But what is Liverpool now?

[blacky]

DJS if DIC come in would you be willing to give Rafa a 5th season in charge? Lets say he is given the go ahead to pursue his top targets with a large transfer budget and he gets the full backing of the boards. Surely in this scenario he will challenge for the title (or so the RCDNW brigade say)

[Robster007]

I'm used to abuse when people cant actually make a valid argument

But you don't consider any argument that differs from yours valid.