Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Craig_H]

he did last year though

He's also won league titles and a double...

[Craig_H]

I agree. This season is a shambles on and off the pitch. We are playing awful football and the team looks devoid of confidence. We should be comfortable in fourth place as a bare minimum but you have to admit that the **** that's going on at boardroom level is a huge distraction and must be effecting the manager and players. As I have said I think Rafa must shoulder the blame as manager. I don't agree with someof his team selections nor his rotation policy however IF we were winning games would we be discussing these things. No we would not. I respect Rafa for having a vision and sticking to it even though I do not agree with it. I firmly believe that 2 or 3 20million pound players is all we need. There is no other short term fix to bridge the gap between us and the top 3. Given time I think the improved youth setup will pay dividends.

I agree that off field stuff CAN have an impact. No qualms with that.

But the problem is, there are already several external factors causing us problems. Yet rafa bizarrely chooses to ADD to these problems, by create his own problems for himself. That's my problem with him, he doesnt help himself. He makes a difficult job even more difficult.

I agree that if we were winning games, it wouldnt be an issue, but that's the point mate, we're not winning games and it's not by coincidence that we're failing to do so. Rafa's poor decisions are a huge reason why we arent winning games...and they keep being made. It's at the point now where his actions are damaging us.

[Craig_H]

The frustrating this is, for me anyway, is that I think we are really close. We ahve the defence, the central midfield and the striker. Now if we can improve in some positions, I genuinely believe we can challenge for the title.

If Rafa is backed, and more importantly gets in a number 2, then I think we can challenge

I agree that we arent far off. But that's a reason why i dont think rafa is the right man for the job...

As you say, we're fairly close. Yet the points tally doesnt suggest that. Why is that? It's because rafa is getting it wrong.

I believe a better manager would have us right on chelsea's tails right now.

Rafa's problems are largely of his own making. If he's backed and gets a number 2, he'll still over-rotate, still play players in positions they're uncomfortable in and still chop and change the system almost weekly.

[Craig_H]

tell me this, we created 13 shots on target yesterday, 11 off target and had 9 blocked according to after match stats. against man city during the xmas period we had 9 on target, 14 off target and 6 blocked. against chelski it was 5 on target, 4 off target (didnt say how many blocked).

to me this is just a sample of definate proof that if rafa was backed to the hills financially this summer and allowed to spend the 20-30 mill on an samual etoo / david villa type striker and maybe another 20-30 million on a silva / ronaldo type attacker / winger we would have the players at our disposal who would take these chances. it's not about rafa getting the best out of his players as he has shown over the past 3-4 years he has got the best out of his defenders (numerous clean sheets and best defensive records) a midfield that consistently creates chances for our strikers (20+ chances a game also shows this) and the best out of his strikers...the problem being he has not been backed suffeciently enough when tryng to attract the best strikers to our club. do you for one second beleive rafa would have had bellamy, crouch, kyut, voronin as top targets...no. he wants to buy the big players and should he get them i beleive we would be winning games like yesterday 10-0 easily.

rafa has progressed our club really far IMO in the last 3-4 years and if he is backed as i say for one more summer i beleive he will get it right.....saying that i also beleive that if we fail to qualify for CL next year (a task our squad at present should be capable of) then rafa should be sacked and another manager given a chance.

It's not just about yesterday.

[Craig_H]

It certainly indicates that we need more firepower but players like Tevez even possibly (depending on how you do your accounting), Adebayor, Eduardo, Van Persie, McCarthy, Santa Cruz and Dave Kitson (and Saha on previous seasons form) could all have been added to our squad at a not disimilar price to what we have paid for the likes of Kuyt and Babel and many of them for less.

So far this season they have all looked (injuries apart) much more dangerous than Voronin, Kuyt and Babel in their respective teams. Rafa has to take responsibility for the players he has chosen and the way he has played them.

He has done a lot of things right but in terms of us not having the cutting edge we need a lot of that is down to the choices made by Rafa IMO. Some of them (I'm thinking Babel really) may turn out well but the timing of bringing in an untried young player of potential but not proven ability was all wrong I think.

The three big things in Rafa's favour IMO are the revolutionised youth/reserves setup, the quality of our CL performances and finishing above Arsenal in the last two years. We have some elements of a solid base for progress but he needs to evolve his approach and I think at this stage it is fair that people expect him to show signs of that in what remains of the season if they are to give him their full backing.

Thing is though mate, we've gone from finishing above arsenal for two years, to finishing (probably) 25-30 points behind them. The points swing is likely to be close to 40. In one year. That's incredible.

[Kenneth]

Didn't we finish level on ponits with arsenal and were ahead on GD alone?

[Craig_H]

Didn't we finish level on ponits with arsenal and were ahead on GD alone?

Yes, you're quite right there, apologies. So it'll only be a swing of 25-30 points then, in the space of one year. 'Only'...

[rudedog]

Mods, please dont merge this or lock it, it's purely intended to ask the couple of questions at the end...

Ok, let's set the scene here. No abuse, no arsey-ness, just a genuine set of observations and then a few questions...

19 points off the top of the league.
Probable 20+ point defecit by the end of the season.
Struggle to finish 4th.
Struggle to knock Luton out of the cup.
Given a scare by part timers.
Dumped out at home by Barnsley.
No title challenge in four years.
Strange team selections.
Odd substitutions.
Bizarre systems.
Players playing out of position.
Persisting with flops.
Arguably boring football.

So, with the above in mind, a few questions...

Is it EVER Rafa's fault, or has ANYTHING been his fault? If so, what?
WILL anything ever be his fault?
At what point SHOULD he have to be made accountable for his actions?
Is there anything that could happen or any point that would make you think "Time for him to go" ? If so, what?
If he's not at fault, who is and why?
If he hasnt been given enough money to challenge for the league, what's the excuse for struggling against Luton, Havant and losing to Barnsley?
Or are the players 'not good enough' to beat those sides (and finish 4th)?

From what i've seen posted, it strikes me that for some posters, it's never simply his fault, which seems odd. So i was curious and was hoping to get some stuff clarified.

Thanks.

What a load of pish and arse water. This post is loaded with your own agenda.

Of course Rafa has to take responsability for the way things have turned out this season. I don't think you will find a single sensible fan who would argue that Rafa is blameless.

These types of post really piss me off, you put forward a bunch of loaded questions and stats, hoping that other people will do your dirty work for you in further stoking the fires of discontent currently associated with this club.

What good do posts like yours do? Will it help motivate the fans to support the team so that we can beat Inter this week? Don't underestimate the influence the fans can have - our great European nights have taught us this.


At this moment in time, we need everybody - manager, players and fans to rise above this, show the world what they are made of and try and salvage something from this season.

Whether Rafa should stay or go should be decided at the end of the season and is something that should be discussed then - at the end of the season.

Can't you see that your type of post can only damage the club further at during this extremely delicate and decisive period?

PS - Were you the fan who left Istanbul at half time?

[Craig_H]

What's my 'agenda' ?

[tomasjj]

What's my 'agenda' ?

Cuddling Maureen's human horn

[Dhav]

What's my 'agenda' ?

Anti-Rafa, pro Mourinho, and it's hardly a recent one.

Let's face it, your original post was loaded. It seems you're the only one who can't see it. Either that or you're just trying to convince us it wasn't.

[Craig_H]

Anti-Rafa, pro Mourinho, and it's hardly a recent one.

Let's face it, your original post was loaded. It seems you're the only one who can't see it. Either that or you're just trying to convince us it wasn't.

Dhavlos mate, be sensible for a minute...

Why would i be 'anti rafa' ? Why would i be 'pro Mourinho' ? I like rafa, i'm very fond of him. I have no feelings towards Mourinho, be they positive or negative.

My agenda is simply that i want LFC to achieve what LFC is capable of achieving and i want the manager who's most likely to bring that about.

Suggestions that i'm 'anti rafa' are bizarre and childish at best, whilst containing no substance or sense of logic.

Loaded with what? I see the same people finding excuse after excuse, and completely absolving Rafa of blame for anything and it still baffles me.

[Robster007]

What a load of pish and arse water. This post is loaded with your own agenda.

Of course Rafa has to take responsability for the way things have turned out this season. I don't think you will find a single sensible fan who would argue that Rafa is blameless.

These types of post really piss me off, you put forward a bunch of loaded questions and stats, hoping that other people will do your dirty work for you in further stoking the fires of discontent currently associated with this club.

What good do posts like yours do? Will it help motivate the fans to support the team so that we can beat Inter this week? Don't underestimate the influence the fans can have - our great European nights have taught us this.


At this moment in time, we need everybody - manager, players and fans to rise above this, show the world what they are made of and try and salvage something from this season.

Whether Rafa should stay or go should be decided at the end of the season and is something that should be discussed then - at the end of the season.

Can't you see that your type of post can only damage the club further at during this extremely delicate and decisive period?

PS - Were you the fan who left Istanbul at half time?

An excellent post, to which DJS answers with yet another stupid, dismissive smiley.

[Robster007]

Dhavlos mate, be sensible for a minute...

Why would i be 'anti rafa' ? Why would i be 'pro Mourinho' ? I like rafa, i'm very fond of him. I have no feelings towards Mourinho, be they positive or negative.

My agenda is simply that i want LFC to achieve what LFC is capable of achieving and i want the manager who's most likely to bring that about.

Suggestions that i'm 'anti rafa' are bizarre and childish at best, whilst containing no substance or sense of logic.

Loaded with what? I see the same people finding excuse after excuse, and completely absolving Rafa of blame for anything and it still baffles me.

Dhavlos be sensible? He's one of the most measured posters on here. You keep saying people are "completely absolving" Rafa. You have made that up. So many people have entered this thread and said, yes, we're pro Rafa, but we do put some of the responsibility on him.

Yet you continue to divide with your "it's all his fault" or "you're completely absolving him", get Mourinho in agenda. You then back that up with a denial you have a pro Mourinho agenda.

You're the one who needs to be sensible.

[Skillz]

People should be worrying about how to play against Liverpool, not the other way around.

Can't agree with that. In almost every circumstance now (even Chelsea at home, FFS) teams park the bus and try to play counterattack due to our inability to break down strong defenses. If Rafa could work that out we would be fine.