Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Craig_H]

One answer DJS - professional pride. Players with integrity, character and moral fibre have it. Players without those characters dont.

too many of our players do not have professional pride and so are not worthy of the shirt IMO.

See this is what mean. Absolving Rafa of motivational responsibility. Somebody points at a problem and surprise surprise, it's not rafa's fault...

Nobody can tell me that it's not part of a manager's job to motivate the players and get as much out of them as possible...nobody can tell me that, because it's not true.

[Dhav]

See this is what mean. Absolving Rafa of motivational responsibility. Somebody points at a problem and surprise surprise, it's not rafa's fault...

Nobody can tell me that it's not part of a manager's job to motivate the players and get as much out of them as possible...nobody can tell me that, because it's not true.

These are not children, they don't need to be spoon-fed, they have some responsibility on their shoulders.

Tell me this Syd, why is Mascherano, Torres and Reina going out there every week and giving it their all while the others are not?

[Craig_H]

These are not children, they don't need to be spoon-fed, they have some responsibility on their shoulders.

Tell me this Syd, why is Mascherano, Torres and Reina going out there every week and giving it their all while the others are not?

They dont need to be spoon-fed, but by the same token, the manager DOES have to motivate players. I cant believe you're genuinely suggesting that it's not a part of his job to do that. If you're not saying that, then do correct me - because it really comes over as if you are saying it.

Either Rafa isnt motivating them, or he cant. I dont personally feel that he isnt trying to motivate them. I genuinely think the majority of them have now lost faith in him and IMO, that answers your question.

[carlton]

I havent read all of this thread but if anyone has said Rafa should get rid of the last remaning links to the Houllier era then I'd agree with that. I would support Rafa sending off Gerrrard -yes sacrilege I know , winding down Carraghers involvement- his body is starting to let him down, Kewell-he's just rooted physically and mentally, Riise -say no more, if shooting every time he gets the ball in his own half isnt selfish and stupid what is? Sami-see Carra. I would suffer a lack of trophies for a while in return for a team that would be willing to suffer pain for each other everytime they go out to play and run through brick walls for the manager/team

[Craig_H]

Not sure what logic there is to selling Gerrard. I see none.

More often than not, he's our only hope of a goal. Selling him would be suicidal.

[Dhav]

They dont need to be spoon-fed, but by the same token, the manager DOES have to motivate players. I cant believe you're genuinely suggesting that it's not a part of his job to do that. If you're not saying that, then do correct me - because it really comes over as if you are saying it.

Either Rafa isnt motivating them, or he cant. I dont personally feel that he isnt trying to motivate them. I genuinely think the majority of them have now lost faith in him and IMO, that answers your question.

I'm not absolving Rafa of motivational responsibility, what I am saying is that it should not be necessary to any great extent. If these were true professionals they'd have enough about them to go out and do a professional job without the need for the manager to get them pumped up to any great degree.

And I dont think Rafa is incapable of it. Need I remind you of this:-

Don't let your heads drop.
All the players who go on
the pitch after half-time have
to keep their heads held high.
We are Liverpool. You are
playing for Liverpool.
Do not forget that.
You have to hold your
heads high for the supporters.
You have to do it for them.
You cannot call yourselves
Liverpool players if you have
your heads down.
If we create a few chances
we have the possibility of
getting back into this.
Believe you can do it and you will.
Give yourself the chance
to be heroes.

The problem is, and here we are in agreement, that these players are not capable of being motivated by Rafa (with the exception of the three I have mentioned). And for that, I blame the players not Rafa.

As I've said, apart from Reina, Torres and Mascherano, the players lack the moral fibre and integrity required to be Liverpool players.

[Craig_H]

I totally disagree with you about the apparent lack of need for a manager to motivate the players. 100% disagree.

The players need no motivating for big CL games, merseyside derbies or games against the mancs, arsenal and chelsea. They're huge games and the adrenalin does the trick.

But when it's 'only' barnsley and the like, the players do need to be motivated. Similar to fans, in many ways. The atmosphere for a derby or for the mancs (or a big CL game) is usually great. But check it out for Bolton at home, for example. Similar thing. I'm not saying it's right, but it's human nature.

Ideally, the players would be driven for success and that desire and hunger for success would be enough, but it isnt like that. Perhaps if they'd won the title and had experienced the glory, they'd be more self motivated to win it again. But sadly, that's not the case. The manager must play his part in getting them 'up for it' and motivated to win. Sure he SHOULDNT need to, but he does. And he cant. For that reason, if nothing else, he has to go.

[Ron_Mexico]

Jose Mourinho.

Chelsea played decent stuff

you moan about rafa but then want to replace him with a manager who had all the pieces we've been crying out for but still played boring, boring football, eking out 1-nils. I thought we were trying to move away from that by changing the manager like you so desperately want. mourinho's teams were one dimensional, if things went wrong he had no plan B, even with all that talent on the bench he couldn't change a game to save his life. his best move would be to send the largest CB to the front and playing long ball. his record in the transfer market is pretty poor as well. he's very overrated imo. but i'm sure you admire his 'motivational skills'

that 'tick tock tick tock' signature sure is classy

[Craig_H]

you moan about rafa but then want to replace him with a manager who had all the pieces we've been crying out for but still played boring, boring football, eking out 1-nils. I thought we were trying to move away from that by changing the manager like you so desperately want. mourinho's teams were one dimensional, if things went wrong he had no plan B, even with all that talent on the bench he couldn't change a game to save his life. his best move would be to send the largest CB to the front and playing long ball. his record in the transfer market is pretty poor as well. he's very overrated imo. but i'm sure you admire his 'motivational skills'

that 'tick tock tick tock' signature sure is classy

The tick-tock signature refers to Rashid and his postings about DIC...so might be worth actually getting your facts straight before making an arse of yourself.

As for what we're trying to move away from...it's mediocre league performances and zero chance of challenging for the title that I'D like to move away from.

[Dhav]

I totally disagree with you about the apparent lack of need for a manager to motivate the players. 100% disagree.

The players need no motivating for big CL games, merseyside derbies or games against the mancs, arsenal and chelsea. They're huge games and the adrenalin does the trick.

But when it's 'only' barnsley and the like, the players do need to be motivated. Similar to fans, in many ways. The atmosphere for a derby or for the mancs (or a big CL game) is usually great. But check it out for Bolton at home, for example. Similar thing. I'm not saying it's right, but it's human nature.

Ideally, the players would be driven for success and that desire and hunger for success would be enough, but it isnt like that. Perhaps if they'd won the title and had experienced the glory, they'd be more self motivated to win it again. But sadly, that's not the case. The manager must play his part in getting them 'up for it' and motivated to win. Sure he SHOULDNT need to, but he does. And he cant. For that reason, if nothing else, he has to go.

I agree that he cant, but IMO it's not his fault that he cant, it's theirs. There is no excuse for half hearted effort on the pitch, and that's what it comes down to at the end of the day. These players lack moral fibre. Simple as that.

Why is it Mascherano and Torres are giving 100% but the others aren't? Who do you blame?

The inmates are taking over the asylum.

And I can't believe you're using the lack of league success as a reason to justify them not being self-motivated. If anything that is what should make them hungry. But let's face it, our players are good at talking a good game about how they want to win the league, but when it comes to actually wanting to work and fight for it, it's a completely different story.

Incidentally, I wonder how much motivating Wenger actually does.

[Rafa Shankly]

They dont need to be spoon-fed, but by the same token, the manager DOES have to motivate players. I cant believe you're genuinely suggesting that it's not a part of his job to do that. If you're not saying that, then do correct me - because it really comes over as if you are saying it.

Either Rafa isnt motivating them, or he cant. I dont personally feel that he isnt trying to motivate them. I genuinely think the majority of them have now lost faith in him and IMO, that answers your question

so the players couldnt be arsed then

what are you saying mate,your making an awful lot of assumptions.

which one is it,is it
a)rafa is not motivating the players
b)cant motivate them
b)the players are not bothered

or
d)the players are not bothered because rafa either can not or is not attempting to motivate them.

your really beating this horse to death mate,we get it,everything is rafas fault,no blame what so ever lay with the players,nothing that has happened this season could have possibly had an affect on the team.

get rafa out,we really get you.

[Craig_H]

I agree that he cant, but IMO it's not his fault that he cant, it's theirs. There is no excuse for half hearted effort on the pitch, and that's what it comes down to at the end of the day. These players lack moral fibre. Simple as that.

Why is it Mascherano and Torres are giving 100% but the others aren't? Who do you blame?

The inmates are taking over the asylum.

And I can't believe you're using the lack of league success as a reason to justify them not being self-motivated. If anything that is what should make them hungry. But let's face it, our players are good at talking a good game about how they want to win the league, but when it comes to actually wanting to work and fight for it, it's a completely different story.

Incidentally, I wonder how much motivating Wenger actually does.

Well whether it's his fault or not, if he cant motivate them, he has to go.

[Alpha]

Well whether it's his fault or not, if he cant motivate them, he has to go.

Or bring in a charismatic number 2.

[Dhav]

Well whether it's his fault or not, if he cant motivate them, he has to go.

Ideally what I'd do is get rid of all of those spineless players who have proven they do not have the integrity or moral fibre to represent our club. The exceptions are Mascher, Torres and Reina who to me have shown sufficient effort and desire to suggest they do actually give a ****.

But of course, it is not practical to get rid of 10-15 players and keep the manager. So rather reticently, I do agree with you that it is Rafa that has to go..

[Dhav]

Or bring in a charismatic number 2.

A number 2 would make a massive difference, but whether it would be enough to win over these ****house players of ours I'm not sure.