Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Red Chilli]

Well Wenger and Fergie have had years on him, and Chelsea have had unlimited funds for a quick fix. Plus Fergie's funds have hardly been insignificant. Plus we were miles behind all 3 when he took over.

Here's my argument to the statement that money is the be all and end all and that unlimited money = success.

RANIERI

He had unlimited funds at Chavski in his final season and won bugger all. Mourinho came in and turned them into record breaking champions.

Even with unlimited funds, it still takes a talented manager to win the league. Rafa is a talented manager but he just isn't suited to the english game.

We have ridiculously more transfer funds than Everton yet face the distinct possibility of finishing behind them twice in 4 seasons.

Go figure

[Sarb]

BUt look back at the list of reasons why we are underperforming and only a few of them are due to Rafa.

IMO the only thing that Rafa is responsible for is the whole rotation thing. There are two options, improve the squad so that we have the quality players that can make this work, OR, rotate less. I think this would make more difference than anything else. If Rafa started doing this it would make me think a) he understands where he is falling down, b) that he is prepared to do something about it, and, c) that he will be in a better position to win the EPL.

No?

But he doesn't recognise rotation as a problem though. He thinks it works when in reality it doesn't really (well the results show it doesn't for him). He's had 4 years to develop a squad of players...the fact they aren't good enough is in part due to him. I remember the posts on here saying, Pennant, Benayoun, Crouch, Kuyt weren't Liverpool quality. Yet he spent over £20m on them. No one out the top 3 would buy them even for the bench

Granted when he's spent big he's bought well, but he's also wasted a lot. 4 years is adequate time to be given in a job and the fact is we haven't moved forward in the League. That is what the fans want.

I'm not going to slate him as he gave us great joy in 2005. However, he is no nearer in the League and for that reason we have to get a new man in. I hope we win No. 6, but he still has to go as performing solely in a cup competition isn't what is desired

[El Jefecito]

Put it better than i could.

Damn, I'm not talking **** for a change. I'm beginning to worry

[Craig_H]

BUt look back at the list of reasons why we are underperforming and only a few of them are due to Rafa.

IMO the only thing that Rafa is responsible for is the whole rotation thing. There are two options, improve the squad so that we have the quality players that can make this work, OR, rotate less. I think this would make more difference than anything else. If Rafa started doing this it would make me think a) he understands where he is falling down, b) that he is prepared to do something about it, and, c) that he will be in a better position to win the EPL.

No?

Mate, with or without the external factors, for me, the following still remain the case:

He rotates too much (and in too high a number) for it to have a positive effect. It has a negative effect on results.

Similar to rotation, he swaps systems too often and leaves the players feeling uncomfortable and playing without much cohesion or fluidity. Playing them out of position doesnt help either.

Furthermore, he is too rigid in his thinking and refuses to acknowledge when something plainly isnt working - so he continues doing it.

So yes, while i agree with most of what you say, the problem is that he WONT see these issues and change them. He hasnt in four years. Previously, we could say he was still learning about the PL. But nothing's changed even now.

So my point is, even allowing the external factors, his own methods are detrimental to our chances of league success. Even if all the external factors and ****e with the board werent going on, the above issues i've pointed out would still exist and i emphatically believe you cannot do those things and win the title.

[Sarb]

Here's my argument to the statement that money is the be all and end all and that unlimited money = success.

RANIERI

He had unlimited funds at Chavski in his final season and won bugger all. Mourinho came in and turned them into record breaking champions.

Even with unlimited funds, it still takes a talented manager to win the league. Rafa is a talented manager but he just isn't suited to the english game.

We have ridiculously more transfer funds than Everton yet face the distinct possibility of finishing behind them twice in 4 seasons.

Go figure

[Sarb]

Mate, with or without the external factors, for me, the following still remain the case:

He rotates too much (and in too high a number) for it to have a positive effect. It has a negative effect on results.

Similar to rotation, he swaps systems too often and leaves the players feeling uncomfortable and playing without much cohesion or fluidity. Playing them out of position doesnt help either.

Furthermore, he is too rigid in his thinking and refuses to acknowledge when something plainly isnt working - so he continues doing it.

So yes, while i agree with most of what you say, the problem is that he WONT see these issues and change them. He hasnt in four years. Previously, we could say he was still learning about the PL. But nothing's changed even now.

So my point is, even allowing the external factors, his own methods are detrimental to our chances of league success. Even if all the external factors and ****e with the board werent going on, the above issues i've pointed out would still exist and i emphatically believe you cannot do those things and win the title.

Agree totally.

[Craig_H]

I remember the posts on here saying, Pennant, Benayoun, Crouch, Kuyt weren't Liverpool quality. Yet he spent over £20m on them

Correct. He actually spent £30m on that quartet.

When you consider that Ronaldo and Robben (two examples of the type of player that'd improve us immeasurably) cost £24m between them, it paints a painful picture.

It's fair to say that Benayoun and Crouch have made good contributions since being signed and they've not been 'bad' signings IMO.

That still leaves £7m Pennant and £10m Kuyt. £17m would've easily bought a Ronaldo or Robben. Throw in £3m or so on Gonzalez and you've got the Torres fee.

*cries*

[Craig_H]

Agree, but we need to relax the constraints that he has been working under. He has had to settle on the far more risky second best transfer options. It's not a great suprise that these second options e.g. Kuyt, Pennant, et al have failed to perform. Would we be the same today if we had got Alves / Simao? I don't think so!

The point is though, that had he kept the money, he could've had an Alves or a Simao. In fact, Simao would've cost the same as Kuyt & Gonzalez put together.

The money's there. We just use it to buy 3 vastly inferior £6m players, rather than one top class £18m player. And yes, i know there've been gaps in the squad. But i think you're better off using a free youngster than a £6m signing who ultimately contributes very little (no more than the youngster would've, probably) and is then sold on for £2m.

[Sarb]

Correct. He actually spent £30m on that quartet.

When you consider that Ronaldo and Robben (two examples of the type of player that'd improve us immeasurably) cost £24m between them, it paints a painful picture.

It's fair to say that Benayoun and Crouch have made good contributions since being signed and they've not been 'bad' signings IMO.

That still leaves £7m Pennant and £10m Kuyt. £17m would've easily bought a Ronaldo or Robben. Throw in £3m or so on Gonzalez and you've got the Torres fee.

*cries*

HAsn't developed a good squad

[El Jefecito]

Mate, with or without the external factors, for me, the following still remain the case:

He rotates too much (and in too high a number) for it to have a positive effect. It has a negative effect on results.

Similar to rotation, he swaps systems too often and leaves the players feeling uncomfortable and playing without much cohesion or fluidity. Playing them out of position doesnt help either.

Furthermore, he is too rigid in his thinking and refuses to acknowledge when something plainly isnt working - so he continues doing it.

So yes, while i agree with most of what you say, the problem is that he WONT see these issues and change them. He hasnt in four years. Previously, we could say he was still learning about the PL. But nothing's changed even now.

So my point is, even allowing the external factors, his own methods are detrimental to our chances of league success. Even if all the external factors and ****e with the board werent going on, the above issues i've pointed out would still exist and i emphatically believe you cannot do those things and win the title.

That is the only bit I agree with. I think the others succeed more often than not. I don't think his methods are detrimental. In theory they are fine, the issue is that they are not tempered by the reality of the resources he has available to him.

e.g. Swapping an on-form Alonso for SG is a non-issue. Problem is that XA is not on form. He needs to realize that and play SG!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sarb]

The point is though, that had he kept the money, he could've had an Alves or a Simao. In fact, Simao would've cost the same as Kuyt & Gonzalez put together.

The money's there. We just use it to buy 3 vastly inferior £6m players, rather than one top class £18m player. And yes, i know there've been gaps in the squad. But i think you're better off using a free youngster than a £6m signing who ultimately contributes very little (no more than the youngster would've, probably) and is then sold on for £2m.

Was a criticism of Houllier too. Bought three **** players as opposed to Duff. You're spot on. He should have saved money instead of waste it on players from teams that got relegated

[Sarb]

That is the only bit I agree with. I think the others succeed more often than not. I don't think his methods are detrimental. In theory they are fine, the issue is that they are not tempered by the reality of the resources he has available to him.

e.g. Swapping an on-form Alonso for SG is a non-issue. Problem is that XA is not on form. He needs to realize that and play SG!!!!!!!!!!!!

But why not start your best team then when you've won the game say after 60 mins, then take off Torres etc. He was resting players in September!!! Couldn't have been tired then

It's a shocking indictment that he doesn't realise himself that he hasn't got the squad to rotate when even his most loyal fans on here recognise the squad isn't good enough for rotation. Why continue to do it?

[El Jefecito]

The point is though, that had he kept the money, he could've had an Alves or a Simao. In fact, Simao would've cost the same as Kuyt & Gonzalez put together.

The money's there. We just use it to buy 3 vastly inferior £6m players, rather than one top class £18m player. And yes, i know there've been gaps in the squad. But i think you're better off using a free youngster than a £6m signing who ultimately contributes very little (no more than the youngster would've, probably) and is then sold on for £2m.

But you know as well as I do that at that point he decided that he needed to concentrate on building the squad vs. the first team. I think that we are past that now and we can focus on the first team.

[the rev leeroy brown]

FACT - we create more oportunities than any other team in the league outside arsenal
FACT - we have had the most consistent defense in the past 4 years (numerous clean sheets and fewest goals conceeded)
FACT - we are making progress under benitez (2 CL finals in 3 years possibly another this year, our highests points finish in the EPL a few seasons ago)

benitez has had to rebuild a whole squad over the past couple of seasons on a shoestring budget (hence the bellamy, pennant, voronin, crouch, krompkamp, nunez, kyut, sissoko purchases) and with one summer with a decent transfer kitty he has brought in Torres, Babel, masher(soon), Skrtel, Bennayoun, Lucas who are all real class players. he hasn't been able to previously go out and spend 20 million on one player as the whole squad needed fixed - not just 1 specific position. if he were to have bought a robben instead of 2-3 other suad players we would be even further back in the title race than we are today. if benitez was given the kind of financial backing made possible by a DIC buyout of the club he would be able to buy the missing links needed to take our club that final step...2 strikers, 1 winger, 1 full back IMO would give us that cutting edge needed to win the EPL.

FACT - benitez, if properly backed, WILL win us the EPL!!

[El Jefecito]

FACT - we create more oportunities than any other team in the league outside arsenal
FACT - we have had the most consistent defense in the past 4 years (numerous clean sheets and fewest goals conceeded)
FACT - we are making progress under benitez (2 CL finals in 3 years possibly another this year, our highests points finish in the EPL a few seasons ago)

benitez has had to rebuild a whole squad over the past couple of seasons on a shoestring budget (hence the bellamy, pennant, voronin, crouch, krompkamp, nunez, kyut, sissoko purchases) and with one summer with a decent transfer kitty he has brought in Torres, Babel, masher(soon), Skrtel, Bennayoun, Lucas who are all real class players. if benitez was given the kind of financial backing made possible by a DIC buyout of the club he would be able to buy the missing links needed to take our club that final step...2 strikers, 1 winger, 1 full back IMO would give us that cutting edge needed to win the EPL.

FACT - benitez, if properly backed, WILL win us the EPL!!

What do you think he needs to change to ensure the EPL?