Rafa has a mighty CB headache!

[Marky]

Agger will have to earn his place back.

[billy_mac]

Agger will have to earn his place back.

He'll have to prove his fitness, but I think he'd be first choice if fit with Carra.

[dww]

We'll see, a lot has to do with who exactly we have at the start of the season.

I don't think it will - against nearly all opposition if the objective is to win rather than draw then a back three with wingbacks puts too much emphasis on the wingbacks and overly compacts the play in the central regions. Along with the obvious fact that an extra CB adds one less attack competent player to the line up.

We have seen Rafa use it with success to get a draw against Juve in the CL, beat **** teams with a single goal threat in Newcastle and Wigan in previous seasons but last year Reading exposed all of the systems obvious weaknesses. In 90% of circumstances it is a formation to hold possession and aim for a goaless draw.

[Morph]

We should scrap the "best midfield in the world" song and replace it with "the best central defence in the world"!

We've got the best defence in the world
With Sami and Agger
Skrtel and Carra
Reina and Arbeloa-a-a

[billy_mac]

I don't think it will - against nearly all opposition if the objective is to win rather than draw .... In 90% of circumstances it is a formation to hold possession and aim for a goaless draw.

I think the minimum objective to be challenging is not to lose to the other teams around us away and beat them at home. We drew at chelsea and arsenal last year with 4 at the back, we won't talk about OT. So how ever we line up I don't care as long as we get no worse than a draw. We played our most attacking football since the Daglish era under Roy Evans with 3 at the back, so I wouldn't agree with it being a set up not to lose. Rafa's a lot more cautious with his set ups and goes for a lot of containing and stiffling the play rather than attacking.

[dww]

I think the minimum objective to be challenging is not to lose to the other teams around us away and beat them at home. We drew at chelsea and arsenal last year with 4 at the back, we won't talk about OT. So how ever we line up I don't care as long as we get no worse than a draw. We played our most attacking football since the Daglish era under Roy Evans with 3 at the back, so I wouldn't agree with it being a set up not to lose. Rafa's a lot more cautious with his set ups and goes for a lot of containing and stiffling the play rather than attacking.

The Evans thing is a fair point but the PL was of a poor standard at the time. Defending in this country was a joke across the continent. The formation has to my mind gone out of favour since the 90s for a reason.

There are only 6 games with the other teams in the top four. Setting up for a draw in any of the games to my mind would be a bad idea as they are better attacking sides and in really tight games they have the experience and mentality drop on us - at least in the cases of Chelsea and United. The fact is that the 3-5-2 limits your ability to attack against good creative teams and gives them an obvious target on the wings to hit - they will exploit it and in fact be more likely to win. Chelsea, United and Arsenal all fall into that category and I would say that the 3-5-2 would be a bad option against them.

I also think we simply drew too many games last year. Adopting a more possession rather than flexibility based system (which is how I see the move to a back three) would seem to be a step back from that to me.

[billy_mac]

The Evans thing is a fair point but the PL was of a poor standard at the time. Defending in this country was a joke across the continent. The formation has to my mind gone out of favour since the 90s for a reason.

There are only 6 games with the other teams in the top four. Setting up for a draw in any of the games to my mind would be a bad idea as they are better attacking sides and in really tight games they have the experience and mentality drop on us - at least in the cases of Chelsea and United. The fact is that the 3-5-2 limits your ability to attack against good creative teams and gives them an obvious target on the wings to hit - they will exploit it and in fact be more likely to win. Chelsea, United and Arsenal all fall into that category and I would say that the 3-5-2 would be a bad option against them.

I also think we simply drew too many games last year. Adopting a more possession rather than flexibility based system (which is how I see the move to a back three) would seem to be a step back from that to me.

We drew too many games because we missed too many chances, simple as. Plenty of interviews with Rafa saying we created chances, we did not score, so we draw... well along those lines anyway.

I said getting a draw away against the top teams is whats important not setting up for a draw... You don't want to be inviting United, Chelsea or Arsenal on to you, I agree with you there.

I can see the merits in playing 3 at the back. How attaking of defensive you make it is dependent on the wing backs or wingers and if you play with one or two up top. I prefer what ever formation keeps us winning. My ideal formation is 4-4-2 but its not set in stone and isn't a runner given the current squad.

[dww]

We drew too many games because we missed too many chances, simple as. Plenty of interviews with Rafa saying we created chances, we did not score, so we draw... well along those lines anyway.

I said getting a draw away against the top teams is whats important not setting up for a draw... You don't want to be inviting United, Chelsea or Arsenal on to you, I agree with you there.

I can see the merits in playing 3 at the back. How attaking of defensive you make it is dependent on the wing backs or wingers and if you play with one or two up top. I prefer what ever formation keeps us winning. My ideal formation is 4-4-2 but its not set in stone and isn't a runner given the current squad.

Yeah, I knew what you are saying. I just think that a 3-5-2 is tantamount to setting up for a draw. I accept that is a point for debate seperately.

I'm not entirely convinced about the chances argument. I don't think we did make enough clear cut chances. To a degree I think Rafas comments were as much about psychology and looking to get the team to keep believing as a totally honest analysis. I think the problem was breaking down defenses to make good enough chances, rather than a lack of chances per se.

I don't think that the one or two up top does actually define how attacking the way you play is. In fact a lot of teams now set up a team with two up top as a defensive option leaving them isolated from the rest of the team to act as a target for long balls from defence. I agree with the broader point you make about it being how you play a system not the system that affects how attacking you are. I simply feel that the organisation of defense in a 3-5-2 means that the wingbacks are the only players tasked to cover the flanks and this means that you are more likely to either leave gaps at the back or lack width in attack.

A back three only makes sense at all to me if you go back to having a sweeper and I really think that in modern football the direct equivalent of the old sweeper is the holding midfield player. The pace of the modern game dictating that a player further up the park can cut out danger more efficiently and the fact that they are picked for midfield qualities first means that in general you get a more technically able player.

I just think that a back four is the most efficient and flexible way of balancing a team.

[billy_mac]

You can never make enough chances, but we did make enough at home in the stupid games we drew and especially against Chelsea in the semi final. Its something Rafa no doubt was using to dig at the players, but also to shield away from the overall lack of creativity. I'd put that down to how Rafa has us set up rather to personel, playing predominantly on the counter attack. We don't play high up the pitch at all and are happy to let teams have the ball and play.

Point taken about 2 up top to forrage on their own merits and hitting the ball early. But better to have 2 to try make it stick up there than have one chap (unless its Torres) on his own. I see it with 3 at the back and 2 up top there are more players in advanced positions to have the emphasis and possession much higher up the pitch. As we both argee its how you play it. Yes you could be light down the wings. Skrtle and Agger both have plenty of pace and could cover the wings with wing backs and with mascherano & xabi/barry not far away.

4 is plenty at the back, but sometimes 3 could be enough or 3 + 2 might be needed. Its good to have the options and a healthy problem to have 4 very good CB. The best thing is Sami knows he will be a bit part player, Carra will do whatever is asked of him for the club, Skrtle is just delighted to be here and Agger the same. I can't see any problems being caused if somebody is left out.

[dww]

I completely agree with the last paragraph I just think that the framework of 2 CB, 2FB and a holding midfielder gives the most natural coverage and balance of players most of the time and don't see the benefit of adding a central defender.

I don't see it being a big problem keeping our CBs happy to be honest even if we kept a back 4 in all games. I would much rather have it this way than the way we went into last season when an injury to Agger meant we had to use an aging Hyypia and Carra all the time. Sami is an excellent backup but in some games he just looked shattered and when Carra got his rib injury we looke din real trouble at times.

[lucas]

Agger will have to earn his place back.

Agger should be one of the first names on the team sheet, when fit. One of Rafa's best buys. Up there with Torres & Masch.

[red g]

agger can play as left back as well, cant he?

[El Jefecito]

agger can play as left back as well, cant he?

Rafa said not, but that he can play on the left as part of back 3.

[Marky]

Agger should be one of the first names on the team sheet, when fit. One of Rafa's best buys. Up there with Torres & Masch.

Aye he's quality, however having missed such a large chunk of last season and with the form Carragher, Hyypia and most certainly Skrtel showed towards the end of the season he'll know himself he can't just stroll back into the defence.

[Morph]

Aye he's quality, however having missed such a large chunk of last season and with the form Carragher, Hyypia and most certainly Skrtel showed towards the end of the season he'll know himself he can't just stroll back into the defence.

That's what the pre-season is for, everyone starts with a clean slate, i'm willing to bet he starts the first game of next season