The invisible Robbie Keane

[RedSince1964]

i agree with everything that has been said on here but a bit of perspective wouldnt go amiss with some. i honestly dont think we could play any worse than we have for the first 3 games and we have won all 3. the team dont seem to ever have met one another but that will change. the potentail to go back to 4-2-3-1 may still work but that would mean that keane is playing in a position that he isnt used to which is a bit silly for a £20million player. we know he has the ability to link well with class players so keeping him up the pitch will benefit everyone

we have soe tremendous players now and i dont see the problem in gong for

-----------------------------torres----------------------

-------------gerrard----------------------keane---------

?????-----------------------------------------------babel

-------------------alonso----------mascher-------------

-------skittles-----------carra-----------agger---------

-----------------------------pepe----------------------
this would allow gerrad and keane to both be up supporting torres whilst alonso could join the attack with mascher covering. everyone goes on about alonso having 2 poor seasons in comparison to when he arrived. am i the only one who sees the difference in the position he is playing and the effect it has on him. when he arrived, gerrard was still playing the box to box midfielder but with an emphasis on defending. this always allowed alonso to push forward and he was able to dictate the play from further up the field and pick the passes that we all became used to. since gerrard has emeged as one of worlds best attacking miidfielders, the responsibility fell to alonso to become the defensive midfielder. this is something that he adapted to but obviously it was going to take time. i might be wrong but last season i think alonso had the most tackles and the most passes in the team.

by switching to alonso and mascher in the middle, we have the tenacity that is needed from both players and also the passing ability. it would also allow all of the front players to switch positions which, assuming that they have game intelligence would mean that players cutting inside could be compenstaed by others filling their positions.

anyhow. just an idea rafa incase you are reading this

Now thats a line up i'd like to see every week

Good choice bud

[Parm]

Is the biggest issue.

yup. seems like they are still on their holidays

[Darkon]

If we are going to play 4-4-2 then we need wingers; not Kuyt; not Benny; not Babel. Sqaure pegs in round holes. When are we going to just go out and buy a decent touchline hugging player(s) that will spread out the defence and make space for the front 2 and Gerrard. Its no secret why we keep on drawing at Anfield. We are so easy to defend against; we are so narrow its untrue. All play is condensed and away teams just block this area. We would see more of the real Xabi if he's given people to hit in space; not this "eye of a needle" job. The play is so tight that any miscontrol by a player and the move is gone (not to the extent of Kuyts rubbish last night obviously). I fear for us this season. Not as a result of last night but because of the unbalance in the team and the squad in general. We are going to struggle against any team that wants to defend first and attack second i.e. most teams that come to Anfield. If we had the play spread players like Gerrard, Alonso, Keane & Torres would have the space to play & be creative at the moment its like we're playing on a pitch 30 yards wide.

The whole problem with statements like yours (sorry not singeling you out for anything) and other number-systems that fans tend to quote is that modern football has nothing to do with it.

Football today has less and less to do with having 4 def 4 mids and 2 strikers or any other number, than it has to do with the movement surrounding the players. Rafa likes to play between the lines, not in the lines which is the same Mourinho, Riijkard, Wenger and Fergie started doing a long time ago. The formation as such doesen't matter, it is the role and movement going forward and back that matters, and being able to set eachother up in the gaps that comes in the lines of classic formations. Say a classic like the 4-4-2, there are two natural gaps, between the mid and def. and between back and center def. because the central def have to go forward to protect the first gap.

The problem that we see at the moment has more to do with the team not finding itself in the movement, than the actual numbers. Doesen't matter if we play 442 or 4231 system, as long as all players knows theirs and teammates positions, and thus setting up players in the gaps. This furthermore means we don't need specialized wingers, the classic 10. etc., we need intelligent players. Players that make good movement, knows eachothers positions and runs and can cope in a lot of different positions, as the movement around the ball will dictate where on the pitch they are. Straight out wingers that can only function wide won't work in a movement-system. And that is why Rafa appreciates players like Kuyt, Keane etc.

(a bit off topic), but that also is part explanation why we have seen such difficulties playing against the top sides in the PL. They use similar tactics, and the holes we search for are not as easily found. And our problem seems to be finding a tactic that can stand up against movement-tactics like our own. Further this also partly explains to me why we are somewhat better against a lot of european sides. A lot of leagues still have teams playing the old formation game, which our tactics are made out for. We are better equiped to deal with these sides.

All this said, I stand by my last comment, that the reason for Keane not being better is because the whole team isen't performing better. The movement is crap ATM, and the team as such don't find the necessary holes in the oppositions gaps. Keane will come good when he knows the team movement and the team knows his, and when the unit starts performing as one.

P.S. hope it makes some sort of sense, and some of it proberly merrits a thread of its own, as it takes some of the focus away.

[Darth Marty]

no no no, he will be fine once spurs sort out the berbatov saga, im sure he will strike up a great partnership with bent if berbatov goes otherwise they will have another great season with keane and berba up front.


oh.......forgot hes signed for someone else..........

[badpiggy]

2 things about robbie keane:

apparently there was a very good article in an irish paper recently about robbie keane and his best position. ( i think it might be dion fanning who writes for the sunday independent and who is very good)
apparently the stats show that he gets most of his goals and assists playing as a standard striker. supposedly his assist rate from a deeper position or out wide is very poor. the article claimed that for some reason - perhaps the amount of goals keane and berbatov got at spurs - people view keane as an "in the hole player". in fact keane himself seems to think this is his best position. rafa has bought into this and the writer expressed deep concern at the role rafa is giving keane. just saying, that's all.

personally i think keane looks totally lost at the moment. he plays like he ahas the weight of the world on his shoulders and i don't blame him. he's arriving into a team with the weight of winning the premiership probably becoming more of a noose every day and he's expected NOT to play his best positon but still immediately fit into a system i'm not sure anyone outside of a few coaches actually understand. it could take him a while to figure out what exactly it is he's supposed to do or how it's all supposed to click.

one more point - our goal last night came from a winger crossing the ball from out wide to a centre forward in his natural position.

i don't understand what rafa is trying to do and it looks ****ing woeful at the moment. but because i don't understand i'm choosing to support rafa as much as out of ignorance as anything else.

[Kenneth]

"because i don't understand i'm choosing to support rafa as much as out of ignorance as anything else."

That's always the best kind of support.

[badpiggy]

"because i don't understand i'm choosing to support rafa as much as out of ignorance as anything else."

That's always the best kind of support.

but it is in this case. for all the moaning i see on here about rafa and also all the defence of rafa, i have yet to see one person come on here and say "right - here is the system that rafa is trying to play and here's how you do it." #

we all seem to have suggestions about individual parts of the team that need repair or improvement but rafa must have some plan if he resolutely refuses to employ standard wingers. i really like the 4-6-0 article that dww posted a good while back but unless someone on here coaches to a high level most of the criticism and defence is out of ignorance.

[Johnny]

The only reason Keanes form is being discussed(One shot in three games) is because he`s playing in a team that`s playing terrible football.Once the team click Keane will click.

[ronanm]

We are playing hopeless AND have maximum points and through to the Champions League. It can only get better and once Keane breaks his duck he'll settle down.

[barnes10]

The only reason Keanes form is being discussed(One shot in three games) is because he`s playing in a team that`s playing terrible football.Once the team click Keane will click.

Agree completely

[Tee]

The only reason Keanes form is being discussed(One shot in three games) is because he`s playing in a team that`s playing terrible football.Once the team click Keane will click.

Before I go on I would just like to say that I really like Robbie Keane (and have done long before he signed) but it could be argued that the team had clicked in pre-season until Keane was signed.

I just find it frustrating that we had system that was working, i.e. Gerrard playing just off Torres, and then changed it towards the end of pre-season when Keane signed.

Dare I say it, but what if Rafa had signed a world class wide player? (I deliberately will not name any names!!). That just seemed the logical next step in our build-up to the season.

I will stop there because I do not want to be seen as a Keane basher because trust me, I am absolutely desperate to see him succeed, and I genuinely believe he will. It just would have been nice to have signed a wide player of equal calibre by now.

[Johnny]

Before I go on I would just like to say that I really like Robbie Keane (and have done long before he signed) but it could be argued that the team had clicked in pre-season until Keane was signed.

I just find it frustrating that we had system that was working, i.e. Gerrard playing just off Torres, and then changed it towards the end of pre-season when Keane signed.

Dare I say it, but what if Rafa had signed a world class wide player? (I deliberately will not name any names!!). That just seemed the logical next step in our build-up to the season.

I will stop there because I do not want to be seen as a Keane basher because trust me, I am absolutely desperate to see him succeed, and I genuinely believe he will. It just would have been nice to have signed a wide player of equal calibre by now.

Reira???

[bigfooty]

When Keane looked on for about £12M I thought great bit of business. I really like him as a player. But paying £19M for him, well we're not the sort of club that can afford to spend that much money on a player of his age unless he is absolutely the missing link. And I didn't think he was that.

Now we're in a situation where, for me, he doesn't compliment Torres. What we need alongside Nando is a physical presence for already in these first four games Nando has taken a hell of a beating from defenders. I lost count the number of fouls against him on Wednesday. Nando is a marked man thanks to his exploits in Euro 2008, and last season of course. Sides are going to be brutal towards him. He needs someone who defenders *have* to occupy and with Keane floating around and not really linking up with Nando they don't have to worry too much about him. Nando's fantastic movement means he'll be often places other than the middle of the pitch, leaving the diminutive Keane to play there which isn't going to put the fear of god into too many defences.

If we go more a 4-2-3-1 than 4-4-2 where does Keane play? Off Nando centrally? That's not a position he's played a great deal in his career and it makes no sense to me to buy a £19M player at his supposed peak and then ask him to do something that isn't natural. We've ended up with Yossi, Keane and Kuyt all playing out of their natural position which is clearly bonkers and explains a lot of why our attacking and general player has been so poor. And if we play Gerrard central, maybe drop Keane out to the right in Kuyt's current position, he's going to have to defend a lot of the time because that is what Rafa demands and we've signed a 20+ goals a season striker and reduced him to a sort of attacking right-midfielder.

Keane's transfer for me is one where the player - a popular lad in the dressing room by all accounts, proven in the league, a boyhood fan, an International captain with a great record at that level - seems to have come before any considered thought as to where he'll play in our "system".

[Rashid]

Keane has been very poor. What gets me is not that he hasn't done anything when he gets the ball; it is how rarely he actually gets it. That must mean he is not making the runs or getting into good positions. It seems to me that we are in effect playing with 10 men.

I think another issue is that Liverpool strikers often have to play against a team set up solely to avoid letting in goals. That is different from the defences that most strikers (including Keane) play against for most of his career. Some can hack it, and some cannot.

I agree it is early days. If I was Rafa, I would be trying to find a way of easing him in more gently - which means playing him less or maybe not playing him from the beginning - without damaging his confidence.

All top teams have to play against packed defences, the problem for LFC strikers is that we never cut open teams and provide them gilt edge chances, it's always feeding off scraps.

Robbie will settle and become a hit, but until we improve the quality in attacking midfield things won't improve.

[Imy]

OK another poor game, i had doubts before we signed him and he is not proving his doubters wrong.

Maybe Rafa is not helping by shifting him left and right, but basic passing and shooting has been lacking, i always thought he was an intelligent player but doesn't seem to have an understanding with anyone.

His signing has in my opinion broken up the successful Gerrard and Torres Partnership.