Player improvement

[dww]

I remember a conversation (on a forum, maybe this one) a long time ago about how much Wenger had improved the likes of Tony Adams and that commensurate improvements in our players had not occurred under Rafa. It seems to me that in the cases of Hyypia and Carragher of late similar improvements in passing and ball retention have been made.

I also think that Gerrard has matured into a much better player. In Rafa's first season we often had a problem defensively with the Gerrard-Alonso partnership in midfield now when it is used the problem is simply that we loose the increased excellence of Gerrard higher up the pitch.

Do other people agree that Rafa has genuinely improved the players at his disposal or is the feeling that he has more improved the quality of the players around them?

[Chrono]

I'd go with improving the players around them. One thing that Wenger has that none of our managers have had for a long time is breeding creativity. We seem to distill so much discipline in players that their flair gets lost along the way but this might just be an acceptable fact of how Rafa builds a team.

I would agree that Gerrard is a better player but he has lost some of his early spark imo but overall I think Rafa makes players more complimentary to the team as a whole and raises their workrate, tracking back, etc.

[dww]

I would agree that Gerrard is a better player but he has lost some of his early spark imo but overall I think Rafa makes players more complimentary to the team as a whole and raises their workrate, tracking back, etc.

But that is improvement in my book (I also think our short passing is universally better than it was under Houllier and this is the first year I think I would say that for Gerrard and Carragher).

[BFG]

Do other people agree that Rafa has genuinely improved the players at his disposal or is the feeling that he has more improved the quality of the players around them?

I think both really. Gerrard was already a world class player when Rafa arrived but I think Rafa has used him with greater effect than Houllier did by moving him into more advanced positions and you only need to look at how many more goals he's scored since Rafa arrived to know it's worked.

Carragher for me is the one that really stands out though. Towards the end of Houllier's reign I'd almost given up on the lad. Too many seasons of playing out of position, especially when at left back made him look like a player that didn't quite have the quality for us even though his heart was there for all to see. Rafa came in and immediately saw that he had all the qualities needed for a great centre back and the rest is history. If Rafa hadn't come in it would have been hard to predict what would have happened to Carra.

Rafa's also brought the general level of the squad up by an impressive amount. We have quality in every position and also on the bench now and that obviously helps the likes of Gerrard who maybe felt like his career was being held back by less talented team mates. I think that Gerrard's attitude has also improved but it's anyone's guess whether that's down to Rafa or just maturity that comes with age but he certainly seems to trust his team mates more and by his own admission he's now less 'selfish' and would play anywhere for the team.

Hyppia is also worth a mention in that I think Rafa has managed him brilliantly so that he's only being used in games where his weaknesses aren't exposed and that obiously gives him the confidence to keep going forward and playing to his strengths into his mid 30's.

[saj]

Carragher and Gerrard have definately improved and are still improving. Benitez talked a few years ago about Gerrard could improve on when to make runs etc etc when hoaming in on goal and this has been evident in the last 2 seasons -he seems to always get in the box at the right time and if you've noticed, Gerrard has more goals in the box this year than ever before. Also hitting 20+ in 2 seasons and probably this season is an obvious improvement.

Carragher's improvements are more obvious IMO. He got moved from an average full back to a world class Centre Back literally overnight. Benitez obviously saw something in Carragher that Houllier didn't. Even Carra now gets forward from defence better than he used to and does when he plays at full back. He's even improved his shooting on goal!

But the biggest improvement Rafa has coached into a player is Torres. He's gone from being an average (but highly rated) striker to being truly world class. Anyone notice last year how when Torres first started playing for us, he seemed to get involved with the build up pay a lot more and run the wings a lot more (this was a trait that he carried over from Athletico Madrid). Torres did still have a good scoring record but it dramatically improved as the season went on. I noticed that as Torres' strike rate improved, he was involved in less of the build up play and was running the wings a lot less. Clearly Benitez has coached Torres into when to make the rights runs etc etc. I've talked to Spanish guy at work and he says (which I kind of knew before) that Torres was widely regarded as a talented player in Spain but people very much doubted whether he would become the player he has under Benitez - he didn't have the greatest strike rate or never had played in the Champios League. It was only the Athletco supporters who worshipped him - the rest of Spain did really regard him that highly. They expected him to fail miserably in England but instead he has become one of the top 3 players in the world and I feel that this is largely down to the Benitez factor and also him being more suited to the premiership.

I wouldn't say Hyypia has really improved that much as he's just as amazing now as the day we signed him.

Arbeloa is another one who has improved a hell of a lot

[saj]

I'd go with improving the players around them. One thing that Wenger has that none of our managers have had for a long time is breeding creativity. We seem to distill so much discipline in players that their flair gets lost along the way but this might just be an acceptable fact of how Rafa builds a team.

I would agree that Gerrard is a better player but he has lost some of his early spark imo but overall I think Rafa makes players more complimentary to the team as a whole and raises their workrate, tracking back, etc.

Not too sure about Gerrard his spark but I defiantely agree with all of that.

[dww]

So you don't think that Sami's passing, specifically, has improved. I really think this season his short possession keeping balls have been far in advance of what he has done previously (IMO he has always been an excellent long passer).

[saj]

So you don't think that Sami's passing, specifically, has improved. I really think this season his short possession keeping balls have been far in advance of what he has done previously (IMO he has always been an excellent long passer).

To be honest I would say no to that as I think the team as a whole is passing the ball well, be it short or long passes. I truly believe we are the best passing+moving team in the premiership - we play very similar to the Spanish national team. Arsenal are just clueless and play playground football, the scum have individual players who dribble the ball a lot more while Chelsea started the season off well passing the ball but they kind of play a bit more direct now - similar to how we used to play last year. Sami probably has more options to pass the ball short now due to the movement the players around him have (obviously Benitez has coached this into his players). under Houllier the tactic was defend deep and hit the ball long to Heskey. So Sami would never have had the option to play it short.

[Matt]

Think it's a bit of both - for the same players to continue to stand out when the quality around them has improved it shows that both Carragher and Gerrard have improved.

Carragher was always on an uphill curve, season by season, peaking IMO in 2005.

Gerrard has always been our main man but improvements elsewhere mean his superhero act in each third of the pitch is not always required so I'd say he's become a more intelligent player.

I remember a Rafa quote in regard to Steve Finnan and the handover from the previous regime with Houllier saying he was a 'good' player and how subsequently he developed into a 'very good' player.

[dww]

To be honest I would say no to that as I think the team as a whole is passing the ball well, be it short or long passes. I truly believe we are the best passing+moving team in the premiership - we play very similar to the Spanish national team. Arsenal are just clueless and play playground football, the scum have individual players who dribble the ball a lot more while Chelsea started the season off well passing the ball but they kind of play a bit more direct now - similar to how we used to play last year. Sami probably has more options to pass the ball short now due to the movement the players around him have (obviously Benitez has coached this into his players). under Houllier the tactic was defend deep and hit the ball long to Heskey. So Sami would never have had the option to play it long.

I see the point you are making and I agree with the idea that Rafa has introduced a style more conducive to short passing but I really think that when he arrived and attempted to implement this he ran into the barrier that even our better players (Hamman excluded) were poor short passers and that one of the reasons we are a better team this year is the incremental improvements in short passing throughout the team. The problem with implementing a way of playing like we have now with the players we had was that each misplaced short pass puts a player under pressure and therefore creates pressure for the opposition now players are confident and capable of consistently putting the ball to the next player in a position where he can easily deal with it.

I think there is certainly a case that Rafa has consistently tried to bring in players who already fit this philosophy in place of those that don't which muddies the waters to a large extent.

[Chrono]

I would like to add that I think it is very hard to draw conclusions on improvement between Houllier and Rafa as Houllier was effectively killing our team and players (with a few exceptions) so really there was only one direction our players could go.

As saj says a lot of the difference currently is down to the style of play as Houllier didn't believe in taking the ball out from the back but instead hitting it long.

This discussion is starting to make me think you might not be wrong about Heskey (Still don't want to sign him).

[Darkon]

I don't think it is a coincidence that every time we sign a new player, they always say that Rafa has helped them improve their game from day one. Always comes up in their interviews after being at the club for a couple of months. And they seem to focus on Rafa always has small tips and things he wants players to work on, even if they are very small details. Rafa has a great eye for development and details, and I believe he is a great manager in that way.

Even players of great quality like Torres said so after joining us.

Of course the other aspect also plays a great part, it is easier being a player if you can trust the guy next to you to handle the ball well and covering for you.

[dww]

This discussion is starting to make me think you might not be wrong about Heskey (Still don't want to sign him).

I'll convert everyone eventually

[saj]

I would like to add that I think it is very hard to draw conclusions on improvement between Houllier and Rafa as Houllier was effectively killing our team and players (with a few exceptions) so really there was only one direction our players could go.

As saj says a lot of the difference currently is down to the style of play as Houllier didn't believe in taking the ball out from the back but instead hitting it long.

This discussion is starting to make me think you might not be wrong about Heskey (Still don't want to sign him).

Ultimately, each manager has his methodology. Houllier had his (defend deep, play it long etc) and it was effective for only 2 seasons when we did the treble and then finished second and eventually it became useless. Benitez has his and it's the Spanish way of playing - play the ball from defence to midfield with short or accurate cross field passes (not hoofs). In general play patiently and not just get erratic and play it long. But what we have which is not typically 'Spanish' is strong physical players who can tackle hard and work harder and press the opposition a lot more and push the opposition defence further towards their own goal. I'm sure this was one of the methodologies Bentiez learnt from the great AC Milan side of the laste 80's. Even Reina plays more often plays the ball short than long - but even his long passes/kicks are accurate anyway and pressure the opposition defence/midfield. I truly believe that Benitezs' philosophy/way of playing is faultless - you just need the right players which we almost have.

[Neil Young]

I'll convert everyone eventually

You're a threat to the Western worl...oh, I see, you're talking about Heskey.