Player improvement

[dww]

Heskey is just the thin end of the wedge.

[ntto]

i've posted on this subject a number of times as being a coach it fascinates me.

I've read somewhere that Rafa's coaching philosphy means that he does not coach his players to improve their skills - which I find incredible, shocking actually. Instead he coaches his players on systems, tactics and his sessions are based around preparing the team for the next match. Any improvement in player skills are a byproduct of this. I remember reading that Liverpool dont specifically practice shooting under Rafa which i find hard to believe if true

Going back to Houllier, when Owen won us the FA Cup final against arsenal I remember reading one of Owens columns where he said Houllier told him he needed to improve his left foot to be classed as a top-class striker - and as such for months on end Houllier ran Owen through many sessions geared towards improving his left foot. Owen said without Houllier taking an input he never would have scored those goals in that final - or indeed have the confidence to use his left foot. Watchining Owen now - look how many times he uses his left foot at all never mind for shooting - rarely.

But it's finding that balance. And I'm not advocating Houllier over Rafa before I get jumped upon, as Rafa is the est in the business at preparation.

When we bought Babel I said on here that we've bought an amazing potential, but I didnt think Rafa would necessarily bring that out of him - and thats where Wenger is an amazing coach, making people realise their potential. I don't think Babel has improved as a player since he arrived here, but under Wenger I'm sure he would have

[dww]

i've posted on this subject a number of times as being a coach it fascinates me.

I've read somewhere that Rafa's coaching philosphy means that he does not coach his players to improve their skills - which I find incredible, shocking actually. Instead he coaches his players on systems, tactics and his sessions are based around preparing the team for the next match. Any improvement in player skills are a byproduct of this. I remember reading that Liverpool dont specifically practice shooting under Rafa which i find hard to believe if true

Going back to Houllier, when Owen won us the FA Cup final against arsenal I remember reading one of Owens columns where he said Houllier told him he needed to improve his left foot to be classed as a top-class striker - and as such for months on end Houllier ran Owen through many sessions geared towards improving his left foot. Owen said without Houllier taking an input he never would have scored those goals in that final - or indeed have the confidence to use his left foot. Watchining Owen now - look how many times he uses his left foot at all never mind for shooting - rarely.

But it's finding that balance. And I'm not advocating Houllier over Rafa before I get jumped upon, as Rafa is the est in the business at preparation.

When we bought Babel I said on here that we've bought an amazing potential, but I didnt think Rafa would necessarily bring that out of him - and thats where Wenger is an amazing coach, making people realise their potential. I don't think Babel has improved as a player since he arrived here, but under Wenger I'm sure he would have

It's an interesting point. Although I actually think that it could add weight to part of my argument. I would suggest that by not concentrating on improving skills directly but by using match situations there may be a lag in the development of the skill but that when improvement is seen it is improved in a way that shows up in matches (i.e. unlike Smicer being great in training but poor on the pitch the aim is to get players who take everything they do in training out onto the pitch).

I'm reading a season on the brink at the minute and two points seem worth making - one the idea of 'preparing to succeed' and secondly the idea of match situation based training for keepers. The former I mean in the sense that Rafa feel that by practicing holistically in faux-match situations you learn how to do things in such a way that they become instinctive in match situations - i.e. where you point to Owen no longer using his left foot presumably because he confidence in it came temporarily from specific training that the Rafa approach would be that if you make a player who understands when it is the best decision to use their left foot then they might do it without needing to have constant repetition of that particular skill. The second not unrelated point I think is that many skills in football are not as individual as people make out - short passing for example relies on understanding between players of how one another likes to receive the ball as well as the literal skill of being able to consistently place a ball with great accuracy you have to make the decision of where to put it. More obviously defensive marking is a group effort and you have to work at sublimating yourself as an individual in the collective.

I suspect that Babel was rejected by Wenger as he thought he was unlikely to learn and Rafa took the view that given time he could adapt him. I'm not sure he was right but I really think if he fails the problem will be with him rather than with Rafa.

In terms of attacking players I think the key is making efficient players rather than improving the things people seem to be obsessed about like trick and flicks. I see Chrono's point re. the spark in Gerrard but I think a similar argument can be followed with him and Giggs at United - early on they looked spectacular and were good players but when they matured they were far more effective even if they didn't seem quite as exciting as they once did.

[Chrono]

Heskey is just the thin end of the wedge.

Is he breeding at an extreme rate?

[ntto]

It's an interesting point. Although I actually think that it could add weight to part of my argument. I would suggest that by not concentrating on improving skills directly but by using match situations there may be a lag in the development of the skill but that when improvement is seen it is improved in a way that shows up in matches (i.e. unlike Smicer being great in training but poor on the pitch the aim is to get players who take everything they do in training out onto the pitch).

I'm reading a season on the brink at the minute and two points seem worth making - one the idea of 'preparing to succeed' and secondly the idea of match situation based training for keepers. The former I mean in the sense that Rafa feel that by practicing holistically in faux-match situations you learn how to do things in such a way that they become instinctive in match situations - i.e. where you point to Owen no longer using his left foot presumably because he confidence in it came temporarily from specific training that the Rafa approach would be that if you make a player who understands when it is the best decision to use their left foot then they might do it without needing to have constant repetition of that particular skill. The second not unrelated point I think is that many skills in football are not as individual as people make out - short passing for example relies on understanding between players of how one another likes to receive the ball as well as the literal skill of being able to consistently place a ball with great accuracy you have to make the decision of where to put it. More obviously defensive marking is a group effort and you have to work at sublimating yourself as an individual in the collective.

I suspect that Babel was rejected by Wenger as he thought he was unlikely to learn and Rafa took the view that given time he could adapt him. I'm not sure he was right but I really think if he fails the problem will be with him rather than with Rafa.

In terms of attacking players I think the key is making efficient players rather than improving the things people seem to be obsessed about like trick and flicks. I see Chrono's point re. the spark in Gerrard but I think a similar argument can be followed with him and Giggs at United - early on they looked spectacular and were good players but when they matured they were far more effective even if they didn't seem quite as exciting as they once did.

yup, agree with what you're saying - conditioned games are the best way of putting all the skills together in a match situation to ensure it becomes second nature. Season on the Brink is a great read

However, as part of my coach education i've always been taught that if there is one player not coping with a particular skill (we'll use the owen case with his left foot) then you take them out on their own and break the skill down into its constituiant parts and go through it at a very basic simplistic level. Once the concept of that skill has been understood then you progress it, increasing the difficulty of the skill until they can cope back in the conditioned games.

From everything I've read about rafa he doesnt do this as a coach. He wants the finished article so he can prepare them tactically, incorporate them as part of his "machine". that explains why he doens't particularly like "flair" players as they may do something unexpected (or unprepared for)

sorry, i'm a real nerd with all this stuff.

[dww]

yup, agree with what you're saying - conditioned games are the best way of putting all the skills together in a match situation to ensure it becomes second nature. Season on the Brink is a great read

However, as part of my coach education i've always been taught that if there is one player not coping with a particular skill (we'll use the owen case with his left foot) then you take them out on their own and break the skill down into its constituiant parts and go through it at a very basic simplistic level. Once the concept of that skill has been understood then you progress it, increasing the difficulty of the skill until they can cope back in the conditioned games.

From everything I've read about rafa he doesnt do this as a coach. He wants the finished article so he can prepare them tactically, incorporate them as part of his "machine". that explains why he doens't particularly like "flair" players as they may do something unexpected (or unprepared for)

sorry, i'm a real nerd with all this stuff.

It's a fair point but it would seem not to be entirely consistent with Rafa having been a youth coach. Perhaps he has moved to a point where he handles only the final stages of group training and delegates the skill development to others? I guess only by being in/around Melwood could we ever be sure.

[ntto]

what is also interesting is how rafa spent so much time with other coaches after his initial managerial failures - including alex ferguson - so you can imagine he has taken a little from each and created his own unique philosophy

[Parm]

Dave you have missed out on the improvements we have seen in

1/ Pepe
2. Skertel
3. Agger
4. MAscher
6. Lucas
7.Insua

even Kuyt to a certain extent (in that he has been converted into a solid option on the right, albeit not the ideal one)

it has been disappointing that the likes of Babel, Morientes, Riise, Momo, Pennant havent really shown us much despite their talent and/or experience.
From the Torres interview Rafa works on every minute detail with players and I guess some pick up on this and we see improvement and others may not and think he is being extra harsh on them and react badly?

[Skillz]

Everything I have read points to Rafa being a lot more detailed than Gerard. I suspect every player at Melwood could tell you a similar story about Rafa. He's more hands on as well apparantly.

[dww]

Dave you have missed out on the improvements we have seen in

1/ Pepe
2. Skertel
3. Agger
4. MAscher
6. Lucas
7.Insua

even Kuyt to a certain extent (in that he has been converted into a solid option on the right, albeit not the ideal one)

it has been disappointing that the likes of Babel, Morientes, Riise, Momo, Pennant havent really shown us much despite their talent and/or experience.
From the Torres interview Rafa works on every minute detail with players and I guess some pick up on this and we see improvement and others may not and think he is being extra harsh on them and react badly?

I deliberately focussed on those who had been here for a long time and were older than you might expect to see 'natural progression' in. I totally agree with your point but it isn't clear to me how you judge improvements in players who come in when they happen quickly such as Agger and Skrtel as that might have been they existing level coming out after adapting to a new environment.

I thought about putting Kuyt in my list but I figured it would be too controversial in terms of how people rate him.

I actually think that Riise did improve in some ways in Rafa's first season but reached the limits of his abilities and I can see that if you don't keep improving Rafa's criticisms might get you down and I think that's what happened to him.

I can make arguments about all the other but I suspect that they would all be unilluminating justifications of my pre-existing position.

[dww]

what is also interesting is how rafa spent so much time with other coaches after his initial managerial failures - including alex ferguson - so you can imagine he has taken a little from each and created his own unique philosophy

I do think though that people have failed to account at times for how much he relies on the qualities of those around him in terms of coaching. IMO the lack of a trusted assistant really hurt us last year (it has done to United in the past too). An under valued trait in Rafa has been his ability to identify to quality coaches to come in under him - something that Houllier seemed to fail to do when some of his Lieutenants left us.

[Neil Young]

I can make arguments about all the other but I suspect that they would all be unilluminating justifications of my pre-existing position.

And that would be quite out of place on this fine website.

[Skillz]

And that would be quite out of place on this fine website.

[BG1973]

I see the point you are making and I agree with the idea that Rafa has introduced a style more conducive to short passing but I really think that when he arrived and attempted to implement this he ran into the barrier that even our better players (Hamman excluded) were poor short passers and that one of the reasons we are a better team this year is the incremental improvements in short passing throughout the team. The problem with implementing a way of playing like we have now with the players we had was that each misplaced short pass puts a player under pressure and therefore creates pressure for the opposition now players are confident and capable of consistently putting the ball to the next player in a position where he can easily deal with it.

I think there is certainly a case that Rafa has consistently tried to bring in players who already fit this philosophy in place of those that don't which muddies the waters to a large extent.

where is that aricle by the dutch guy when you need it? the one about the development of a side and how we are in stage 3 or something like that?

The stage where we can now keep possesion high up the pitch and wear the opposition down.

anyone got the link? I think it verifies your thinking.

[dww]

where is that aricle by the dutch guy when you need it? the one about the development of a side and how we are in stage 3 or something like that?

The stage where we can now keep possesion high up the pitch and wear the opposition down.

anyone got the link? I think it verifies your thinking.

This one? http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/...topic=225700.0

Another nice article: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/article.php?id=4954589