442 from now on please.

[Baldemort]

So if we stick to 4231, what do we do with our undoubtedly talented but misused £20mill striker? Rafa loves deadly dirk and riera deserves his place on the left, and however good keane is, he wont be better than stevie just behind nando.

[Scratch]

So if we stick to 4231, what do we do with our undoubtedly talented but misused £20mill striker? Rafa loves deadly dirk and riera deserves his place on the left, and however good keane is, he wont be better than stevie just behind nando.

Let's ignore his price, and consider Rafa's policy of rotation, substitution, different personal for different games...Keane will be part of the plan, be it coming on from the bench, in the torres role up front, in the support striker role, as a wide forward, even as a second striker if the game plan changes at all....flexability. Just because he's been bought for £20 mil, doesn't mean he's any different from any other player.

[dww]

That in itself doesn't mean a lot though Scratch. The question is what formation best suites the players we have at our disposal this season, and allows us to play as many as possible in their best position, not what others are doing now, or in the past.

Personally I think that's still 4231 mind. I've never been completely convinced by a Gerrard/Alonso pairing in a 442, and if that pairing is Mascher/Alonso instead I struggle with the idea of Gerrard back on the right (although we really don't have anyone else could effectively do that job, Kuyt is far better out there in a more advanced role than the flat 4 allows).

IMO by far the biggest issue with us playing 4231 this season has been Torres' lack of fitness, and although I can see that it will be very difficult to accommodate Keane without switching to 442 I'm not convinced that we should be changing what can be a winning formula simply for one player who, although expensive, and although talented, has not shown that a worth to the side big enough to be doing that for.

I feel that the problem with either system remains the inconsistency of our wide players and the failure of anyone but Gerrard and Alonso to ever take a game by the scruff of the neck. I think that talk of formation related problems is a red herring.

I'm a big fan of 4-2-3-1 but to be honest there is very little tactical difference between having Keane deep in a 4-4-2 and a 4-2-3-1 considering the other players we have and the way Rafa likes to set up his teams. Gerrard has become more disciplined from deep but at the expense to a large degree of his dynamic running from deep.

I also think that Keane has been used pretty reasonably and not performed poorly even if he has failed to live up to expectations.

[bobbyfallon]

3-5-2

all day

[dww]

3-5-2

all day

[bobbyfallon]

il always prefer 3-5-2 you have constructed some il informed arguements* vs the 3-5-2 but i think at this stage we can agree that i am right and move along??

*awaits barage of facts to/for 3-5-2

[dww]

On this particular occasion I feel it will be enough to let you know that I disagree in the strongest possible terms and point you to our previous discussions.


[I'm about to go out and get free food and wine, tactical niceties be buggered ]

[Baldemort]

Let's ignore his price, and consider Rafa's policy of rotation, substitution, different personal for different games...Keane will be part of the plan, be it coming on from the bench, in the torres role up front, in the support striker role, as a wide forward, even as a second striker if the game plan changes at all....flexability. Just because he's been bought for £20 mil, doesn't mean he's any different from any other player.

I see your point my friend, but i think its a criminal waste of money to spend £20mill on a player who is effectively part time. Torres was worth every penny of what we paid as when he is fit he plays pretty much every game. We said almost as much on robbie yet he only plays half the number of mins available. If i were the board, i would be livid at the thought of investing that much for a part time player. Its wasteful. In my mind, he should be playing every week, preferably alongside nando.

[Scratch]

I see your point my friend, but i think its a criminal waste of money to spend £20mill on a player who is effectively part time. Torres was worth every penny of what we paid as when he is fit he plays pretty much every game. We said almost as much on robbie yet he only plays half the number of mins available. If i were the board, i would be livid at the thought of investing that much for a part time player. Its wasteful. In my mind, he should be playing every week, preferably alongside nando.

If i was the board, i'd look at the impact that Keane has had on the season as a whole, including our league position, or strength in depth, our ability to cover for Torres' abscence...if you want a good replacement/ally for a striker like Torres, you have to spend money. Keane will play a majority of games, in a season that could last 50+ games, and will be worth the money.

[Baldemort]

But thats part of the problem with him.he cant cover for nando, he's not a lone striker.

[Scratch]

I think he can. I believe he's better as a support striker, but i can also see him leading the front line with Gerrard/Kuyt/Babel playing off him. He just needs to regain his confident form in front of goal that he had at Spurs.

[Baldemort]

You could well be right mate, but I don't see the poor guy ever finding his confidence fully as long as he is in and out of the team. He seems as though he is one of those enigmatic strikers who score in streaks or purple patches, and it's very hard to do that when you're in and out of the team.

[BG1973]

442 is the way to go. If we are to win the league this season, we can't afford to keep playing squad members who just aren't performing at the moment, such as Lucas and Mash. I know there are folks who think Lucas will come good, as will Mash once again, but they aren't doing it right now and haven't been for most of the season. That leaves us with Alonso and Stevie as our only two top notch central midfielders. If we are to win the league we cannot afford to have a team carrying poor performers. Play Stevie and Alonso in the middle of a 442 and it also allows Keane and Nando to finally click as a pair up front. Whack Riera on the left and Dirk on the right and just go for it.

I'd rather pick our strongest 11 and find a formation that they fit into, in this case 442. As opposed to sticking steadfastly with 4231 and making do with the personnel required to make that formation work.

442 please, Rafa.

my god i didn't realise we were doing so poorly this season.

Rafa really doesn't have a clue.

[FatTony]

I don't like it when we have both Mascher and Lucas playing to be honest, especially with our non scoring Striker being the single target man. Gerrard ends up trying to bridge the gap between the two terriers and the forward(s), with Alonso there he's allowed to play a more attacking role.

Mascher and Lucas simply run around snapping at heels, there's nobody there to spray the ball about and if Gerrard has to do it, who's he knocking the ball too? When we play away against most teams, they pack the penalty area so Kuyt gets stuck in the middle of a crowd, Lucas and Mascher are sat too deep and don't really have the technique or vision of Alonso. We end up looking to Riera, Babel or Benny to run rings around the masses and create a killer pass in to space which doesn't exist, or to take it all the way themselves ala Pele or Maradonna. We ultimately end up with half chances and free kicks as the route most likely to victory.

This may well change with the return of Torres but if Gerrard is going to be feeding him, then who is going to step in for Alonso? I think the way forward now is for Keane to sit behind Torres and Gerrard to sit deeper as the orchestrator.

[Norbs]

I don't like it when we have both Mascher and Lucas playing to be honest, especially with our non scoring Striker being the single target man. Gerrard ends up trying to bridge the gap between the two terriers and the forward(s), with Alonso there he's allowed to play a more attacking role.

Mascher and Lucas simply run around snapping at heels, there's nobody there to spray the ball about and if Gerrard has to do it, who's he knocking the ball too? When we play away against most teams, they pack the penalty area so Kuyt gets stuck in the middle of a crowd, Lucas and Mascher are sat too deep and don't really have the technique or vision of Alonso. We end up looking to Riera, Babel or Benny to run rings around the masses and create a killer pass in to space which doesn't exist, or to take it all the way themselves ala Pele or Maradonna. We ultimately end up with half chances and free kicks as the route most likely to victory.

This may well change with the return of Torres but if Gerrard is going to be feeding him, then who is going to step in for Alonso? I think the way forward now is for Keane to sit behind Torres and Gerrard to sit deeper as the orchestrator.

Alonso's declared himself fit hasn't he?