Knee jerk central

[Craig_H]

We'll see at the end of the season who's scored more out of us or them. I suspect it'll be them with the most goals and the PL trophy too. Let's hope i'm wrong.

The crux of the argument is that we drop far too many silly points and this will cost us the title.

If you think 6 wins out of 11 at home is good enough, fair enough. If you think it's not good enough, then you'll agree that we drop far too many silly points.

Results and the table speak for themselves and if United do win the title, it'll be interesting to read some of people's comments at the prospect of them levelling our 18.

I'm sure there'll be reasons why we should apparently not be pissed off about it.

[Kenneth]

But with all this alleged positivity in their play, why do they score fewer goals than us?

Because they go for it when they need to to snatch the points. The Stoke games, 1 goal more, 2 point morel.

[Craig_H]

Because they go for it when they need to to snatch the points. The Stoke games, 1 goal more, 2 point morel.

Exactly right.

I dont believe that Redspin genuinely didnt know the answer to the question.

[Vermilion]

Because they go for it when they need to to snatch the points. The Stoke games, 1 goal more, 2 point morel.

Is that it, they go for it, Arsenal go for it too, where are they, that's just too simplistic, it's more about the players than any tactics imo. You don't know that 'going for it' with the players we have wouldn't have cost us points instead of a guarenteed gain which is what's being assumed.

[Redspin]

Just another quick point about home form.

2007-2008 -
United's home record: P19 W18 D1 L0 - total points 55 out of 57 (dropped 2 points)
2008-2009 so far -
United's home record: P10 W9 D1 L0 - total points 28 out of 30 (dropped 2points)

2007-2008 -
Our home record: P19 W12 D6 L1 - 42 out of 57 (dropped 15 points)
2008-2009 so far -
Our home record: P11 W6 D5 L0 - 23 out of 33 (dropped 10 points)

Therein lies the problem. And this problem is caused by Rafa being too cautious and refusing to just throw caution to the wind. The consequence is Man Utd win titles and we dont.

If someone can legitimately dispute this, please feel free.

OK, how about looking at away records this season?

Liverpool's away record: P11 W7 D3 L1 - 24 out of 33 (dropped 9 points)

Man U away record: P11 W5 D4 L2 - 19 out of 33 (dropped 14 points)

Goals for and against

Liverpool - F19 A7 (GD +8)
Man U - F10 A 6 (GD +4)

So it looks like their ultra-cautious away approach - just 10 goals scored in 11 games -is in stark contrast to the "throwing caution to the wind" approach that you exhort Rafa to adopt - or do Man U only "throw caution to the wind" and get 4 or 5 strikers in the box at home and we can conveniently overlook their away negative away approach because it doesn't fit in with your view of them?

[BFG]

Exactly right.

I dont believe that Redspin genuinely didnt know the answer to the question.

And nor did you as you replied to him before operation did.

United probably do have better attacking options than us but they've been spending £15-£20mil on forward players for years and years. We started when we signed Torres. We have areas that are stronger than them too like centre midfield. We must be comparable to them in overall strength or they'd have run away at the top of the league by now.

Saying, "but they're playing lovely sexy football now and they're going to walk away with it," isn't proof of anything, it's just guess work. The facts are there in black and white for all to see. We've been equally as good (bar 3 points at most) to them this season and we're in with a shot. Whether we'll win it or not is another matter but I won't give up until we definitely can't.

[Vermilion]

And nor did you as you replied to him before operation did.

United probably do have a better attacking options than us but they've been spending £15-£20mil on forward players for years and years. We started when we signed Torres. We have areas that are stronger than them too like centre midfield. We must be comparable to them in overall strength or they'd have run away at the top of the league by now.

Saying, "but they're playing lovely sexy football now and they're going to walk away with it," isn't proof of anything, it's just guess work. The facts are there in black and white for all to see. We've been equally as good (bar 3 points at most) to them this season and we're in with a shot. Whether we'll win it or not is another matter but I won't give up until we definitely can't.

Your not allowed to take that into consideration apparently. I believe the players available to him allow him to play such tactics, i'm not sure we have enough attackers of the same quality.(edit, no, i am..we don't.)

[Craig_H]

OK, how about looking at away records this season?

Liverpool's away record: P11 W7 D3 L1 - 24 out of 33 (dropped 9 points)

Man U away record: P11 W5 D4 L2 - 19 out of 33 (dropped 14 points)

Goals for and against

Liverpool - F19 A7 (GD +8)
Man U - F10 A 6 (GD +4)

So it looks like their ultra-cautious away approach - just 10 goals scored in 11 games -is in stark contrast to the "throwing caution to the wind" approach that you exhort Rafa to adopt - or do Man U only "throw caution to the wind" and get 4 or 5 strikers in the box at home and we can conveniently overlook their away negative away approach because it doesn't fit in with your view of them?

It's purely factual that title winners nearly always have superb home records, rarely ever do they drop more than 10 points. We've dropped 10 already with 8 home games still left. I think we'll need to win all 8 to stand any chance of the title and it's a hard position to put ourselves in. I dont understand what you're arguing with really. Do you NOT think that dropping 10 home points by this stage will harm our chances? Do you think that drawing at home to Stoke, Hull, Fulham & West Ham is something that is likely to see us ending up as champions? It's as if i'm saying we play in blue or something. Those things i've said are surely true, arent they? Or do you not think so?

We'll see at the end of the season mate, i hope you come back to me and laugh in my face because i was so wrong.

[Craig_H]

And nor did you as you replied to him before operation did.

United probably do have better attacking options than us but they've been spending £15-£20mil on forward players for years and years. We started when we signed Torres. We have areas that are stronger than them too like centre midfield. We must be comparable to them in overall strength or they'd have run away at the top of the league by now.

Saying, "but they're playing lovely sexy football now and they're going to walk away with it," isn't proof of anything, it's just guess work. The facts are there in black and white for all to see. We've been equally as good (bar 3 points at most) to them this season and we're in with a shot. Whether we'll win it or not is another matter but I won't give up until we definitely can't.

They're not playing particularly good football, did i say they were?

They win games though and we're struggling to. Isnt that a fact right now?

And isnt that something which gives them a bigger chance of winning the title than us?

Or is winning games something that will harm their chances, as opposed to drawing a lot, like we're doing? Maybe i've got it wrong then, and maybe home draws will win us the title.

Who knows.

[Redspin]

Level on points for the time being. I can see them easily slapping Fulham, which is their game in hand. United scoring six in eight doesn't make no difference to me none whatsoever. This is a results driven business, United are getting the job done and are asking us the questions. I would love it if we won the last six from eight but clearly Benitez feels a draw is better than risking it and going for the push. Ferguson has the bottle and experience to go and pressure a team, Benitez is too reactive and lets the 'situations' dictate his 'tactical' decisions no matter how bizarre they are. Lets face it, United have a lot more match winners across the whole pitch, Rooney, Berbatov, Ronaldo, Scholes. We only have Gerrard and Torres. Says it all really.

Why do these "matchwinners" result in Man U scoring fewer goals than Liverpool then?

When was the last time Scholes scored a matchwinner? Berbatov has scaped 5 goals so far, Fatboy 6 I believe, Ronaldo 8 (pens and free-kicks boosting his tally). Hardly impressive

[Redspin]

Keane couldn't be a match winner if you gave him an open goal as has been the case this season - whilst Berbatov is slowly getting goals for United, Keane is still flapping his hands around like a prick.

Babel, I'll give you. He needs a consistent run of games.

Keane and Berbatov have scored the same number of goals - a paltry 5 in the league. While both have been crap, at least our flop was £12m cheaper than the scum flop

[Craig_H]

Why do these "matchwinners" result in Man U scoring fewer goals than Liverpool then?

When was the last time Scholes scored a matchwinner? Berbatov has scaped 5 goals so far, Fatboy 6 I believe, Ronaldo 8 (pens and free-kicks boosting his tally). Hardly impressive

If they score 6 in 8 games, but the 6 are all winning goals, that's quite a lot of 'matchwinning' there. 24 points' worth.

I dont consider Scholes to be a regular matchwinner for them anymore, i think he's a solid allround midfielder.

My interpretation of matchwinner, is someone who regularly makes the difference to get you a winner (either by scoring or creating it) that you otherwise werent going to get. Someone who, when it looks like you're not going to win, does something which changes the course of the game. They have Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Berbatov.

We have Torres and Gerrard. And Torres has hardly played.

How many of Berbatov's goals have turned 1 point into 3? Same with Rooney or Tevez, or indeed Ronaldo. Berbatov's done it twice recently, that's 4 points. Tevez did it at Stoke for them, another 2 extra points.

You must surely see the value of this?

[BFG]

They're not playing particularly good football, did i say they were?

They win games though and we're struggling to. Isnt that a fact right now?

And isnt that something which gives them a bigger chance of winning the title than us?

Or is winning games something that will harm their chances, as opposed to drawing a lot, like we're doing? Maybe i've got it wrong then, and maybe home draws will win us the title.

Who knows.

That's right enough but the reverse was the case a couple of months ago and everyone still knew that the Mancs had a chance because all it takes is a few good results and you're back in it.

The same applies to us now but you refuse to accept or acknowledge it as you believe that we'll carry on not winning games. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it but a lot of people don't share it and remain positive we'll stay with the leaders until the end. We need to improve certain things, which we can, and that's the reason there's no basis in you having a pop at anyone who dares to suggest we're still in with a shot.

[Redspin]

Yes, hallmark of champions nicking wins. We can't buy a win to save our lifes.

"Hallmark of champions" or "winning ugly"? Man U fans - and Sky TV of course - would use the former description, while the way they've been labouring to get goals would more accurately be reflected in the latter description

[Craig_H]

That's right enough but the reverse was the case a couple of months ago and everyone still knew that the Mancs had a chance because all it takes is a few good results and you're back in it.

The same applies to us now but you refuse to accept or acknowledge it as you believe that we'll carry on not winning games. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it but a lot of people don't share it and remain positive we'll stay with the leaders until the end. We need to improve certain things, which we can, and that's the reason there's no basis in you having a pop at anyone who dares to suggest we're still in with a shot.

I dont refuse to acknowledge that all it takes is a few good results and you're back in it. I fully acknowledge that.

All i've said is that at the moment, we dont LOOK like winning games. We're in a position where we're struggling to score many goals.

That's what i'm basing it on.

If you look at Wigan away next week, would you say that's as close to a nailed on win for us as possible? Or would you look at it and say "well, we could/should win, but i could also see us drawing"?

Same goes for Chelsea on Sunday week.

We're not playing well and neither are United but they still look like winning games, whereas we dont.

And if we drop points in the next couple of games, the points gap is going to make it hugely difficult to stay in touch.

What part of the above do you not agree with?

If i'm being radically off target here, let me know. But i think it's a reasonably fair and not controversial assessment.