Knee jerk central

[Redspin]

Because they had a ****e start, yet stayed in the running because we're woefully inept at beating inferior sides at home. Now they're on the up and we're on the slide.

The results dont lie. 6 wins and 2 draws in their last 8? We're gagging for that kind of form.

It's not form as much as results. Good results but their luck can't hold out. If someone scores against them they'll struggle to come back. 6 goals in 8 games isn't the form of champions.

Someone in the press pointed out that up until a week or two ago, they'd scored about half their goals this season in just 4 games against the three promoted teams and struggled badly to score against the other 16 teams, averaging about one goal per game. An appalling display by Chelsea recently has skewed this, but I can't see anyone else outside the promotees capitulating so easily. They're well and truly riding their luck while playing scuffling, untidy football - "winning ugly", in the parlance of our times. Their luck will change

[BG1973]

Not so simple really - I'm sure if he'd have done what you've suggested and still drawn, people would be blaming Rafa, saying why bring on 2 players who have performed so poorly this season?

I think Everton played a good game, they never panicked or let their heads drop after going a goal down - they knew if they could keep it 1-0 till the last 5-10 mins that they could start pushing more men forward and we would get twitchy. They had nothing to lose whilst the magnitude of this game meant we had everything to lose and it paid off for them.

I think Rafa knew this would happen, thats why he brought on an extra midfielder - I'm sure Rafa couldn't have predicted we'd defend that free kick so poorly.

This was always going to be a hard game and ultimately we dropped points because of schoolboy defending.

There is such a fine margin between winning and dropping points - we should have been 3 up and out of sight except for a poor finish from Torres and a shocking decision from the ref. Compare this with Man Utd's win against Bolton - moments before their late winner, Davies missed a sitter from 6 yards - had luck went against them in that game and had we got the luck tonight, we could easily have been 5 points clear at the moment.

Its a shame so many fail to see just how small the margins are at the moment.

you make your own luck though and if you play as ****e as we did for the last 20 then you don't deserve any.

Not entirely sure it's all rafa's fault but abit baffled why we stopped trying to play it out from the back in the second half. long ball after long ball.

[Craig_H]

With negative support like that you may be right

Ok mate. Call it negative all you like, the fact is we're on a poor run and dont look like winning games. If it carries on, as our current run of form suggests it will, we WILL be out of the race.

You can choose to acknowledge that or ignore it, either way, it's what will happen.

[Craig_H]

It's not form as much as results. Good results but their luck can't hold out. If someone scores against them they'll struggle to come back. 6 goals in 8 games isn't the form of champions.

Someone in the press pointed out that up until a week or two ago, they'd scored about half their goals this season in just 4 games against the three promoted teams and struggled badly to score against the other 16 teams, averaging about one goal per game. An appalling display by Chelsea recently has skewed this, but I can't see anyone else outside the promotees capitulating so easily. They're well and truly riding their luck while playing scuffling, untidy football - "winning ugly", in the parlance of our times. Their luck will change

Is it luck though? It happens time and time again. The fact is, they have a superbly strong defence, so teams find it hard to score against them. And they have 4 matchwinners, and are happy to use them all at once if necessary. So chances are, when they need a goal, one of their matchwinners will inevitably deliver, because they go all out and they push & push and eventually, force the issue. It's not luck, they break their backs going forward and piling on the pressure, they load up 5 or 6 men into the opposition box when they go forward and they play with a high tempo. Consequently, they invariably find a winning goal.

If they played with 1 or 2 matchwinners, with only one striker and sat back, they'd struggle to score goals. Bit like us.

[Craig_H]

Copied this post from another forum and i think it sums up how i feel:

The Mancs also get more men forward when they attack than us and have more potential match winners. (Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez, Ronaldo)

Ferguson knows that in this League it is worth gambling a point to try and get all three by making bold substitutions. Rafa didn't do this at Stoke, he went like for like, when really we could have turned the screw on Stoke and taken a defender off for an attacker.

What does Ferguson do at Bolton? He brings on Scholes and Giggs, opposition crack in the 89th minute. We need to be more adventurous and creative in our forward play. How many times this season have we seen a cross come into the opposition box with only 1 or 2 of our players in there? You be almost guaranteed to see 4 or 5 Manc players in there in a similar situation.

Rafa seems to be more worried about what the opposition can do to us rather than what we can do to the opposition. Tonight and the Stoke game were prime examples, a positive sub might have made the difference instead of bringing Lucas on.

1 win and 1 defeat is better than 2 draws.

[BFG]

You're not getting the point mate. They HAD their **** spell, but remained in the race. We've had our best spell and are now going through a **** spell, exactly at the time that they're rattling off win after win. Yes, any side which puts a winning run together not only has a shot at it, but will win it. And guess what. While we're in ****e form, it's Man Utd who are putting that winning run together.

Give it 3-4 weeks, we'll be about 10 points behind and well out of the race.

I think it's you that's not getting the point mate. We're still in the race too!

The rest is just conjecture.

[BG1973]

How was it defensive? "it's not how many strikers you have on the pitch, it's how many players you get in and around the box at the end of a move". Made excellent sense then and makes excellent sense now.

would agree but how often do we not have enough support in the box?

[Craig_H]

Just another quick point about home form.

2007-2008 -
United's home record: P19 W18 D1 L0 - total points 55 out of 57 (dropped 2 points)
2008-2009 so far -
United's home record: P10 W9 D1 L0 - total points 28 out of 30 (dropped 2points)

2007-2008 -
Our home record: P19 W12 D6 L1 - 42 out of 57 (dropped 15 points)
2008-2009 so far -
Our home record: P11 W6 D5 L0 - 23 out of 33 (dropped 10 points)

Therein lies the problem. And this problem is caused by Rafa being too cautious and refusing to just throw caution to the wind. The consequence is Man Utd win titles and we dont.

If someone can legitimately dispute this, please feel free.

[Kenneth]

2007-2008 -
United's home record: P19 W18 D1 L0 - total points 55 out of 57 (dropped 2 points)
2008-2009 so far -
United's home record: P10 W9 D1 L0 - total points 27 out of 30 (dropped 2 points)

2007-2008 -
Our home record: P19 W12 D6 L1 - 42 out of 57 (dropped 15 points)
2008-2009 so far -
Our home record: P11 W6 D5 L0 - 23 out of 33 (dropped 10 points)"

Wow. It's not the fans and atmosphere, that's for sure.

[BG1973]

Just another quick point about home form.

2007-2008 -
United's home record: P19 W18 D1 L0 - total points 55 out of 57 (dropped 2 points)
2008-2009 so far -
United's home record: P10 W9 D1 L0 - total points 27 out of 30 (dropped 2points)

2007-2008 -
Our home record: P19 W12 D6 L1 - 42 out of 57 (dropped 15 points)
2008-2009 so far -
Our home record: P11 W6 D5 L0 - 23 out of 33 (dropped 10 points)

Therein lies the problem. And this problem is caused by Rafa being too cautious and refusing to just throw caution to the wind. The consequence is Man Utd win titles and we dont.

If someone can legitimately dispute this, please feel free.

could dispute that it's not all down to rafa. They have more match winners than us. We have two..one of which has hardly played this season..

[Craig_H]

could dispute that it's not all down to rafa. They have more match winners than us. We have two..one of which has hardly played this season..

Who chooses to buy our players?

It's clear that Rafa prefers workmanlike players, to matchwinners.

I'd argue that Keane is a potential matchwinner and Babel too. Rafa doesnt like using them much.

Matchwinners cant win you anything if you leave them on the bench and decide to bring on Lucas instead.

Fact is, Rafa does not actively seek to go all out and get a winner. Ferguson does.

[Kenneth]

could dispute that it's not all down to rafa. They have more match winners than us. We have two..one of which has hardly played this season..

And Ngog of course.

[Kinell]

And Ngog of course.

Almost funny.

[rudedog]

Just another quick point about home form.

2007-2008 -
United's home record: P19 W18 D1 L0 - total points 55 out of 57 (dropped 2 points)
2008-2009 so far -
United's home record: P10 W9 D1 L0 - total points 28 out of 30 (dropped 2points)

2007-2008 -
Our home record: P19 W12 D6 L1 - 42 out of 57 (dropped 15 points)
2008-2009 so far -
Our home record: P11 W6 D5 L0 - 23 out of 33 (dropped 10 points)

Therein lies the problem. And this problem is caused by Rafa being too cautious and refusing to just throw caution to the wind. The consequence is Man Utd win titles and we dont.

If someone can legitimately dispute this, please feel free.

Home form only tells half the story though

[Craig_H]

Home form only tells half the story though

Home form will ultimately be the difference between the champions and also-rans.