Knee jerk central

[Redspin]

Winning ugly was what Chelsea did. Had the potential to play good football but resulted in effective and efficient football i.e. hoof tactics.

United aren't playing particularly well at this moment but you know sometime later in the season, they will turn it on. This could have been the most tricky part of their season and they have flown right through so far without Rooney and Ferdinand. On the other hand, we played our strongest side and got a draw at home. Says it all really.

Chelsea rarely hoofed the ball, except when they were losing or drawing late on when they would send Terry up front and use the long ball, so your assessment is rather simplistic.

And how precisely do you know for sure that sometime later in the season Man U "will turn it on"? Gut feeling, reading tea leaves or because Ferguson says so? And why is this the most tricky part of the season for them? Last time I looked we were all playing the same teams.

Rooney's a modest goalscorer at best - he's been playing in the top flight for 6 or 7 seasons now but only broke the 50-league goal barrier last season. Ferdinand is vastly over-rated, one-paced, poor positionally. I don't see what extra dimension he brings to any team - scum or England for that matter

[Craig_H]

Your assessment on Ferdinand is so off the mark, it's actually difficult to believe you're being serious.

I'd be keen to hear what major mistakes Ferdinand's one-paced poor positioning have led to in the last season or so.

[The Birdman]

Ferdinand is quality, his '1 pace' is quicker than any of our defenders.
Vidic has been an amazing signing for them, another one that Parry ****ed up if you believe the popular reporting on players we missed out on but hey Parry is a genius, lets continue to let him dictate our transfer policy.

[Baldemort]

I'll see your pedantry and raise you pedantry+1

If you followed the posts between me and Craig, its pretty obvious we were talking specificaly about Lucas's aerial ability rather than who is the better player in general.

Yes I know that, but it's your incorrect use of English. It's misleading. Sort it, or i'll send the boys around.

[Baldemort]

It's like banging my head against a brick wall. OK - Torres went off, but a striker - Kuyt - took his role (he may be playing on the right but he's well used to the central striker role). Lucas took Gerrard's deeper role, releasing him to play further forward, ie in a more attacking role. Is that any clearer?

Christ. I can't believe I am having such a pointless argument. How the **** is taking Torres off not defensive? The Torres Gerrard partnership works beautifully and has done for a while. It can still work from a 442. Can Gerrard not pass from CM? He can still support the front two from there as Everton were ****ing toothless upfront. Xabi can sit while Gerrard supports the front two. It's not like he's needed to help Xabi out against Victor ****ing Anichebe. So why not make a sub like Babel for Kuyt or Riera. That brings on a new goal threat and keeps Gerrard and Torres on the pitch, Kuyt too if Riera goes off. Bringing Lucarse on simply removes Nando from the equation. He can't score from the bench can he? Yes Gerrard can get forward, but he could before anyway. And what's even better is that when Lucas came on, who would Gerrard be supporting? Deadly Dirk, who couldn't hit a barn door with a tractor. Take your time mate, take your time.

Most folks were pissed off at that substitution. It was a typical negative defensive substitution from Rafa to shore the game up and hang on to 1-0. It backfired.

[rudedog]

Christ. I can't believe I am having such a pointless argument. How the **** is taking Torres off not defensive? The Torres Gerrard partnership works beautifully and has done for a while. It can still work from a 442. Can Gerrard not pass from CM? He can still support the front two from there as Everton were ****ing toothless upfront. Xabi can sit while Gerrard supports the front two. It's not like he's needed to help Xabi out against Victor ****ing Anichebe. So why not make a sub like Babel for Kuyt or Riera. That brings on a new goal threat and keeps Gerrard and Torres on the pitch, Kuyt too if Riera goes off. Bringing Lucarse on simply removes Nando from the equation. He can't score from the bench can he? Yes Gerrard can get forward, but he could before anyway. And what's even better is that when Lucas came on, who would Gerrard be supporting? Deadly Dirk, who couldn't hit a barn door with a tractor. Take your time mate, take your time.

Most folks were pissed off at that substitution. It was a typical negative defensive substitution from Rafa to shore the game up and hang on to 1-0. It backfired.

Torres had just come back from injury and this was his first start. He ran his socks off all game so I can see why Rafa took him off. Gerrard was our 2nd top scorer last season. Most of his goals came from playing in the postion Rafa moved him into after Torres came off so it wasn't too negative. We were 1-0 up at the time, another goal would have been nice but wasn't necessary to take all points. The players we had on the pitch should still have provided a decent enough goal threat.

Its difficult for me to agree it backfired - Everton hit a ball forward which Yossi dived in on resulting in the free kick, this could easily have happened had Torres stayed on the pitch.

Also, if Torres had stayed on and picked up a knock, people would probably now be ripping into Rafa for not taking him off.

For me, the reason we only managed a draw with Everton is because pretty much the whole team underperformed.

[rudedog]

Christ. I can't believe I am having such a pointless argument. How the **** is taking Torres off not defensive? The Torres Gerrard partnership works beautifully and has done for a while. It can still work from a 442. Can Gerrard not pass from CM? He can still support the front two from there as Everton were ****ing toothless upfront. Xabi can sit while Gerrard supports the front two. It's not like he's needed to help Xabi out against Victor ****ing Anichebe. So why not make a sub like Babel for Kuyt or Riera. That brings on a new goal threat and keeps Gerrard and Torres on the pitch, Kuyt too if Riera goes off. Bringing Lucarse on simply removes Nando from the equation. He can't score from the bench can he? Yes Gerrard can get forward, but he could before anyway. And what's even better is that when Lucas came on, who would Gerrard be supporting? Deadly Dirk, who couldn't hit a barn door with a tractor. Take your time mate, take your time.

Most folks were pissed off at that substitution. It was a typical negative defensive substitution from Rafa to shore the game up and hang on to 1-0. It backfired.

Torres had just come back from injury and this was his first start. He ran his socks off all game so I can see why Rafa took him off. Gerrard was our 2nd top scorer last season. Most of his goals came from playing in the postion Rafa moved him into after Torres came off so it wasn't too negative. The players we had on the pitch should still have provided a decent enough goal threat.

Its difficult for me to agree it backfired - Everton hit a ball forward which Yossi dived in on resulting in the free kick, this could easily have happened had Torres stayed on the pitch.

Also, if Torres had stayed on and picked up a knock, people would probably now be ripping into Rafa for not taking him off.

For me, the reason we only managed a draw with Everton is because pretty much the whole team underperformed and Everton made up for what they lacked in skill with hard work and resilience.

[Baldemort]

Torres had just come back from injury and this was his first start. He ran his socks off all game so I can see why Rafa took him off. Gerrard was our 2nd top scorer last season. Most of his goals came from playing in the postion Rafa moved him into after Torres came off so it wasn't too negative. The players we had on the pitch should still have provided a decent enough goal threat.

Its difficult for me to agree it backfired - Everton hit a ball forward which Yossi dived in on resulting in the free kick, this could easily have happened had Torres stayed on the pitch.

Also, if Torres had stayed on and picked up a knock, people would probably now be ripping into Rafa for not taking him off.

For me, the reason we only managed a draw with Everton is because pretty much the whole team underperformed and Everton made up for what they lacked in skill with hard work and resilience.

As I said, there's nothing to stop him bombing forward from a CM position in a 442 against a strikerless Everton with Xabi helping out the back four, and all we had to do to be more attacking was to either leave Nando on, or replace him with Babel. An attacking player to keep them on the back foot. Not a hapless CM. Do you really think Gerrard won't or can't score from CM in a 442? Do you really think Rafa would play a 442 with a misfiring Keane if it meant sacrificing Gerrard's goals? No. The whole idea is that Gerrard will still score goals, but in addition, we will have Keane scoring too.

[Clapper]

Yes I know that, but it's your incorrect use of English. It's misleading. Sort it, or i'll send the boys around.

His english might be incorrect, but you were the only person not understanding what he meant.

[rudedog]

As I said, there's nothing to stop him bombing forward from a CM position in a 442 against a strikerless Everton with Xabi helping out the back four, and all we had to do to be more attacking was to either leave Nando on, or replace him with Babel. An attacking player to keep them on the back foot. Not a hapless CM. Do you really think Gerrard won't or can't score from CM in a 442? Do you really think Rafa would play a 442 with a misfiring Keane if it meant sacrificing Gerrard's goals? No. The whole idea is that Gerrard will still score goals, but in addition, we will have Keane scoring too.

Of course not and I never suggested otherwise, however its entirely possible that Rafa thought that in the absence of Torres, Gerrard was the biggest goal threat we had available. Bearing that in mind, why wouldn't you move your top scorer and biggest goal threat to a position where he will provide even more of a goal threat? By bringing Lucas on, maybe he thought he could do this without compromising our shape and solidity in midfield.

I'm not saying this was the 'correct' thing to do - i'm just suggesting its not as negative a change as you are trying to make out.

[Baldemort]

His english might be incorrect, but you were the only person not understanding what he meant.

No, I understood, I was just being pedantic. I'm not really sending the boys round. I'm a pacifist.

[Baldemort]

Of course not and I never suggested otherwise, however its entirely possible that Rafa thought that in the absence of Torres, Gerrard was the biggest goal threat we had available. Bearing that in mind, why wouldn't you move your top scorer and biggest goal threat to a position where he will provide even more of a goal threat? By bringing Lucas on, maybe he thought he could do this without compromising our shape and solidity in midfield.

I'm not saying this was the 'correct' thing to do - i'm just suggesting its not as negative a change as you are trying to make out.

We'll have to agree to disagree mate. I think against Everton at home, Gerrard could have chipped with a goal from either position, but either leaving Torres on or bringing Babel on would have meant an extra attacker onthe field. Your point about not compromiising the shape in midfield was probably what Rafa was more bothered about as opposed to scoring again to finish the game off. Lucas on was one of the least offensive options he had available.

[bipjohn]

Its been interesting on here recently, Craig patently is negative and thinks we are not going to win the league, he has his supporters and some others think we are, and some, who are more realistic think we have dropped silly points but clearly are still in it and have played for 21 games pretty much without our most potent and best goalscoring weapon, UTD were without theirs early in the season and struggled a lot worse than us.

Anyhow, I fully think Rafa gets it wrong from time to time, but generally he has done well to get a team at Anfield that is light years ahead of the 05 team, we now have maybe 6/7 genuine world class players, I mean players who would walk in to any of our competitors home or abroad, Pepe, Masch, Alonso, Gerrard, Torres and arguably a fully match fit Agger and Skrtel.

Compare this to the team in 2004/5 that Rafa inherited and you may (even Craig) see a difference in quality.

In the mid-late 90's I watched us be embarrased by Euro heavyweights, Auxerre, PSG, Spartak Moscow, Genoa, etc, the list goes on.

Now in 2009 I would back Liverpool against any team in Europe.

Below is the league table and results against all other teams the last time we won the league, I think its interesting, especially the dropped points.
2 points from 6 v Villa
3/6 v Soton (inc 1-4 at the Dell)
2/6 v Forest
2/6 v Norwich (inc 2 0-0 draws)
0-0 draw v 13th placed Man u at Anfield
2/6 v 17th Luton
0-2 away at relegated Sheff Wed

Home Away
P GD Pt Res Res
1 Liverpool 38 +41 79
2 Aston Villa 38 +19 70 D1-1 D1-1
3 Tottenham Hotspur 38 +12 63 W1-0 L0-1
4 Arsenal 38 +16 62 W2-1 D1-1
5 Chelsea 38 +8 60 W4-1 W5-2
6 Everton 38 +11 59 W2-1 W3-1
7 Southampton 38 +8 55 W3-2 L1-4
8 Wimbledon 38 +7 55 W2-1 W2-1
9 Nottingham Forest 38 +8 54 D2-2 D2-2
10 Norwich City 38 +2 53 D0-0 D0-0
11 Queens Park Rangers 38 +1 50 W2-1 L2-3
12 Coventry City 38 -20 49 L0-1 W6-1
13 Manchester United 38 -1 48 D0-0 W2-1
14 Manchester City 38 -9 48 W3-1 W4-1
15 Crystal Palace 38 -24 48 W9-0 W2-0
16 Derby County 38 +3 46 W1-0 W3-0
17 Luton Town 38 -14 43 D2-2 D0-0
18 Sheffield Wednesday 38 -16 43 W2-1 L0-2
19 Charlton Athletic 38 -26 30 W1-0 W4-0
20 Millwall 38 -26 26 W1-0 W2-1

When is everyone going to understand, we have no divine right now or in teh 70/80's to win every game, things will ebb and flow, they did then and they will now. Manu will drop points betwen now and May and so will we, so will Chelsea. 100% Fact.

[Baldemort]

Of course we can still win it. Our game at old toilet is pivotal, obv. Contrary to what many people think, other than their convincing result against a chelsea side which capitulated, manu have been far from convincing. Thats according to what i have seen and what the press have said about them. It wasnt that long ago that an 11 point lead was overhauled on the way to a turn around win of the prem.

[cled the red]

Home Away
P GD Pt Res Res
1 Liverpool 38 +41 79
2 Aston Villa 38 +19 70 D1-1 D1-1
3 Tottenham Hotspur 38 +12 63 W1-0 L0-1
4 Arsenal 38 +16 62 W2-1 D1-1
5 Chelsea 38 +8 60 W4-1 W5-2
6 Everton 38 +11 59 W2-1 W3-1
7 Southampton 38 +8 55 W3-2 L1-4
8 Wimbledon 38 +7 55 W2-1 W2-1
9 Nottingham Forest 38 +8 54 D2-2 D2-2
10 Norwich City 38 +2 53 D0-0 D0-0
11 Queens Park Rangers 38 +1 50 W2-1 L2-3
12 Coventry City 38 -20 49 L0-1 W6-1
13 Manchester United 38 -1 48 D0-0 W2-1
14 Manchester City 38 -9 48 W3-1 W4-1
15 Crystal Palace 38 -24 48 W9-0 W2-0
16 Derby County 38 +3 46 W1-0 W3-0
17 Luton Town 38 -14 43 D2-2 D0-0
18 Sheffield Wednesday 38 -16 43 W2-1 L0-2
19 Charlton Athletic 38 -26 30 W1-0 W4-0
20 Millwall 38 -26 26 W1-0 W2-1

When is everyone going to understand, we have no divine right now or in teh 70/80's to win every game, things will ebb and flow, they did then and they will now. Manu will drop points betwen now and May and so will we, so will Chelsea. 100% Fact.

Oh for them days to return!!