THE Lucas thread

[Craig_H]

I dont get these 'but Gerrard was **** too' type of arguments.

If you have a mate who's been there for you for 20 years or whatever, always helped you out, put himself out for you etc etc....and once in a blue moon, he messes something up, you obviously take into account the bigger picture. If someone like that let me down or whatever, i would take the 95% of the time he's been excellent, over the 5% moment of mistakery (not a word, i know).

Whereas if i've known someone for a couple of months and half the times we've arranged to go for a drink, he's let me down, i'm gonna obviously think to myself that this fella isnt perhaps the kind of person who's proving himself to be reliable enough.

[Neil Young]

Whereas if i've known someone for a couple of months and half the times we've arranged to go for a drink, he's let me down, i'm gonna obviously think to myself that this fella isnt perhaps the kind of person who's proving himself to be reliable enough.

Was it fredo?

[Craig_H]

T'was a hypothetical example.

[Mattshark]

I really dont think so. He wouldnt get into Chelsea's. I dont think Ferguson would put him into his first XI. And Wenger would favour a Denilson or Song.

City? Probably not. Everton? When everyone's fit, that's debatable. Villa? Perhaps. Spurs? Not with Palacios around.

Maybe 10-12. But how many other PL sides he'd get into, is completely irrelevant anyway. I dont care how many of our players would get into how many other sides. Every team has different squad members to fulfil different roles and every team has different needs. Anelka probably wouldnt get in our team with our system. Lampard wouldnt get in our team probably. Neither would Cech. Doesnt make them ****.

All it means is that some teams are strong in a particular area and less so in others.

I was thinking everyone's but Chelsea, and even then I think he could probably compete with Mikel.

[Craig_H]

I was thinking everyone's but Chelsea, and even then I think he could probably compete with Mikel.

I dont think Mikel is necessarily a permanent first choice for them.

Essien to hold, Lampard, Ballack and Malouda or Deco.

I cant make a case for Lucas to get into more than about 10 or 12 first XIs in the PL.

[Kenneth]

I was thinking everyone's but Chelsea, and even then I think he could probably compete with Mikel.

Then you must be properly mental.

[Delinquent]

Then you must be properly mental.

Aye. That's off the ****ing charts mental, that is.

[Neil Young]

The thing is, if we had everyone fit there is no certainty he's in our first XI either.

But since the top clubs (and most of the rest too) rotate pretty regularly then the idea of a first XI is fairly redundant really. Lucas would certainly figure in Man United midfield on a regular basis - after all, Anderson and Carrick play pretty often and they certainly wouldn't get in Chelsea's team much.

[Reece]

The thing is, if we had everyone fit there is no certainty he's in our first XI either.

But since the top clubs (and most of the rest too) rotate pretty regularly then the idea of a first XI is fairly redundant really. Lucas would certainly figure in Man United midfield on a regular basis - after all, Anderson and Carrick play pretty often and they certainly wouldn't get in Chelsea's team much.

Add Fletcher to that.

[Neil Young]

Add Fletcher to that.

I knew there was someone else.

[Craig_H]

Add Fletcher to that.

Fletcher's ridiculously underrated.

[Neil Young]

Fletcher's ridiculously underrated.

I don't think so, or at least not by me. I've said before I think he's not as bad as many here make out but he's hardly in Mascherano's class as a defensive midfielder (or deepish-lying midfield defensive harasser), he's not as good as Alonso on the ball, he's not quick, he's not much of a goal threat, and so on.

He's pretty useful to have in the squad...like Lucas is.

Also, when he was Lucas's age he was really ****.

[Craig_H]

I dont think he's world class, but he's a very good player.

Ferguson, like him or not, knows a thing or two and Fletcher's invariably selected in the big games.

[Neil Young]

I dont think he's world class, but he's a very good player.

Ferguson, like him or not, knows a thing or two and Fletcher's invariably selected in the big games.

I agree. This thread seems to have developed into a discussion of how much worse Lucas is than Alonso, Mascherano, Lampard, Ballack, Essien and Fabregas. I woud not class Fletcher as being as good as them. If Ferguson had a couple of those players available then I doubt Fletcher would be picked in those big games.

He's better than Carrick and Anderson though and, like I said, perhaps a good reminder of what Lucas might turn into with more experience.

[Delinquent]

The thing is, if we had everyone fit there is no certainty he's in our first XI either.

But since the top clubs (and most of the rest too) rotate pretty regularly then the idea of a first XI is fairly redundant really. Lucas would certainly figure in Man United midfield on a regular basis - after all, Anderson and Carrick play pretty often and they certainly wouldn't get in Chelsea's team much.

If we had everyone fit I'm almost certain Aquilani would replace Lucas, so I think you have a point there.

Only the top clubs rotate frequently though, and that's usually to keep everyone fit and healthy. The vast majority of clubs in this league make do with as few changes as they can get away with, primarily because they don't have the quality to afford such a luxury. I certainly don't think the notion of a first eleven is redundant, in any case. As you intimated, it is usually the desired starting eleven, when everyone is fit.

As for Carrick and Anderson - Carrick is infinitely better than Lucas, and Anderson at least has the physical presence to assert himself on a football match. Lucas simply isn't good enough at anything to carve a niche for himself. There are many teams who will likely be lingering around midtable next May, say, who I don't think Lucas would necessarily start for. Would he displace Cattermole or Cana at Sunderland, for instance? I don't think so.

I said this before the season started and I stand by it. Lucas is a tidy player who has improved steadily during his time here. However, year on year incremental progress will not get him to Liverpool standard, certainly not unless we're hoping to unleash him on the Premiership in six or seven years. He needs to improve massively, and I just can't see that happening.