One thing you SHOULD NOT say about Rafa

[Red Chilli]

But totally in character with say the man who answered repeated questions with 'I'm concentrating on preparing my team' or the facts list last season, no? It just showed me he was angry and has been bitten by the FA when critiquing referees (the glasses incident) before.

I'm much happier that he is obviously passionate and hurting than I would be someone who indicated otherwise.

Well that's the character of a petulent child IMO

[FatTony]

Gerrard had been the key to our defense being good over the years?

No, "We were rated NO1 in europe over the last 3-4yrs, how can such a poorly performing team, according to you, achieve such figures."

[Vermilion]

No, "We were rated NO1 in europe over the last 3-4yrs, how can such a poorly performing team, according to you, achieve such figures."

Well i think that's a bit simplistic myself, far more to it than just one player imo, good teams in europe would have made mincemeat of a team so reliant on one player.

[FatTony]

Well i think that's a bit simplistic myself, far more to it than just one player imo.

it was tongue in cheek, but it does help having Gerrard.

[Vermilion]

it was tongue in cheek, but it does help having Gerrard.

Damn you to hell!! You rapscallion.

Yep, Gerrard has been awsome all these years, it's why i always bring up funding, because i feel we've wasted great players, well not wasted, but not being able to put enough players of a similar quality to Gerrard/Fowler in the squad while we've had/have such talent is heartbreaking, i don't want to see the same happen to Torres.

I really feel we missed the boat after last season, and may be fighting against the tide, at a time in our history that we get richer owner's in order to push on, other clubs just get richer ones.

[fah-q]

Well Houllier did'nt manage it.

[Daniel 7]

Hello. First post.

Funny these Houllier comparisons, but short memories are apparent. I remember certain points in the 2001/02 season when we played some amazing football - a couple of games against Roma, one in the UEFA and the Houllier comeback game in the Champion's League for example. Sometimes under Benitez we have been phenomenal - Real Madrid, Aston Villa, the Man Utd games last season. Both managers have been in charge of some absolute shockers - we all have out favourites to pick out here.

My point is - are things really that different now from 2001/02 that its ludicrous to say that each manager's reigns have been THAT much different? Houllier's known as being a negative coach playing **** on a stick football. Look at the stats though...

7 Liverpool 38 15 9 14 68 49 19 54

4 Liverpool 38 19 10 9 51 30 21 67
3 Liverpool 38 20 9 9 71 39 32 69
2 Liverpool 38 24 8 6 67 30 37 80
5 Liverpool 38 18 10 10 61 41 20 64
4 Liverpool 38 16 12 10 55 37 18 60

5 Liverpool 38 17 7 14 52 41 11 58
3 Liverpool 38 25 7 6 57 25 32 82
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 57 27 30 68
4 Liverpool 38 21 13 4 67 28 39 76
2 Liverpool 38 25 11 2 77 27 50 86

61 - Average League Goals per season SOLE CHARGE / 62.16667 inc Roy Evans season
62 - Average League Goals per season

About the same. Stats don't tell it all. Fat Tony made the comparison between a Houllier first 11 and the present day. The first 18 from the UEFA Cup Final was pretty strong, compare this with the current first 18

GK 1 Sander Westerveld
DF 6 Markus Babbel
DF 12 Sami Hyypiä (c)
DF 2 Stéphane Henchoz
DF 23 Jamie Carragher
MF 21 Gary McAllister
MF 16 Dietmar Hamann
MF 17 Steven Gerrard
MF 13 Danny Murphy
FW 8 Emile Heskey
FW 10 Michael Owen
Substitutes:
GK 19 Pegguy Arphexad
DF 27 Grégory Vignal
DF 29 Stephen Wright
MF 7 Vladimír Šmicer
MF 20 Nick Barmby
FW 9 Robbie Fowler
MF 15 Patrik Berger

Look at the options up front! Would you say that those players at their peaks were WORSE than what's on offer now?! Central mid? We would KILL for having the composure of Hamann or McAllister now - Steven Gerrard himself said he picked up an immeasurable amount in the art of midfield play from McAllister - who's doing that for Lucas now?

I just don't see things as having changed that much in the last few years. Peaks and troughs. The troughs, like now, are truly truly woeful. :-(

I remember being blown away by the Valencia team that murdered us with Aimar, and the thought of that manager taking over and making us play like that made me excited for the future. Its not happened though, has it?

[Kenneth]

IMO Kuyt is **** and is Rafa's blind spot, waste of money and is nothing but a donkey. Kewell was hardly ever on form for US and always injured, so what's the difference?

Our teams defended well under Houllier but at the expense of EVERYHTING else. Houllier was a disgrace!

You accuse others of short term memory loss but slate everything about Houllier and call him a disgrace. You, my friend are a cock.

[fah-q]

Look at the stats though...

7 Liverpool 38 15 9 14 68 49 19 54

4 Liverpool 38 19 10 9 51 30 21 67
3 Liverpool 38 20 9 9 71 39 32 69
2 Liverpool 38 24 8 6 67 30 37 80
5 Liverpool 38 18 10 10 61 41 20 64
4 Liverpool 38 16 12 10 55 37 18 60

5 Liverpool 38 17 7 14 52 41 11 58
3 Liverpool 38 25 7 6 57 25 32 82
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 57 27 30 68
4 Liverpool 38 21 13 4 67 28 39 76
2 Liverpool 38 25 11 2 77 27 50 86

61 - Average League Goals per season SOLE CHARGE / 62.16667 inc Roy Evans season
62 - Average League Goals per season

About the same.

I don't agree they are the same at all.

I think the league stats alone paint a very different picture, in so much as the 80 point season under Houllier is the anomoly and the trend is a downward curve, where as Rafa's stats show an upward curve. Also that 80 point season was mostly under the watch of Phil Thompson.

[javier_monsterano]

Am i right in saying that alot of you don't like houllier?
I liked him,man was a legend.But i think after his health problems he was not the same again.those 5 trophies in one season was special.

[fah-q]

No, I liked him. But the last two and a half seasons were extremely painful to watch. The 2 wins in 17 league games over the winter 02/03 was dire.

Thats not even taking into account the poor showing in the FA cup and CL.

[lucas]

We didn't go 11 games with 1 victory under Houllier to be fair

9 Nov 2002 Middlesbrough A 1 0

17 Nov 2002 Sunderland H 0 0

23 Nov 2002 Fulham A 3 2

1 Dec 2002 Man United H 1 2

7 Dec 2002 Charlton A 2 0

15 Dec 2002 Sunderland A 2 1

22 Dec 2002 Everton H 0 0

26 Dec 2002 Blackburn H 1 1

29 Dec 2002 Arsenal A 1 1

1 Jan 2003 N'castle A 1 0

11 Jan 2003 Aston Villa H 1 1

11 league games without victory in 2002/03. People who think Rafa is as bad as Houllier have very short memories. Houllier picked some of the worst teams ever seen in a Liverpool shirt. No comparison imo

[Roboklopp]

Hello. First post.

Funny these Houllier comparisons, but short memories are apparent. I remember certain points in the 2001/02 season when we played some amazing football - a couple of games against Roma, one in the UEFA and the Houllier comeback game in the Champion's League for example. Sometimes under Benitez we have been phenomenal - Real Madrid, Aston Villa, the Man Utd games last season. Both managers have been in charge of some absolute shockers - we all have out favourites to pick out here.

My point is - are things really that different now from 2001/02 that its ludicrous to say that each manager's reigns have been THAT much different? Houllier's known as being a negative coach playing **** on a stick football. Look at the stats though...

7 Liverpool 38 15 9 14 68 49 19 54

4 Liverpool 38 19 10 9 51 30 21 67
3 Liverpool 38 20 9 9 71 39 32 69
2 Liverpool 38 24 8 6 67 30 37 80
5 Liverpool 38 18 10 10 61 41 20 64
4 Liverpool 38 16 12 10 55 37 18 60

5 Liverpool 38 17 7 14 52 41 11 58
3 Liverpool 38 25 7 6 57 25 32 82
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 57 27 30 68
4 Liverpool 38 21 13 4 67 28 39 76
2 Liverpool 38 25 11 2 77 27 50 86

61 - Average League Goals per season SOLE CHARGE / 62.16667 inc Roy Evans season
62 - Average League Goals per season

About the same. Stats don't tell it all. Fat Tony made the comparison between a Houllier first 11 and the present day. The first 18 from the UEFA Cup Final was pretty strong, compare this with the current first 18

GK 1 Sander Westerveld
DF 6 Markus Babbel
DF 12 Sami Hyypiä (c)
DF 2 Stéphane Henchoz
DF 23 Jamie Carragher
MF 21 Gary McAllister
MF 16 Dietmar Hamann
MF 17 Steven Gerrard
MF 13 Danny Murphy
FW 8 Emile Heskey
FW 10 Michael Owen
Substitutes:
GK 19 Pegguy Arphexad
DF 27 Grégory Vignal
DF 29 Stephen Wright
MF 7 Vladimír Šmicer
MF 20 Nick Barmby
FW 9 Robbie Fowler
MF 15 Patrik Berger

Look at the options up front! Would you say that those players at their peaks were WORSE than what's on offer now?! Central mid? We would KILL for having the composure of Hamann or McAllister now - Steven Gerrard himself said he picked up an immeasurable amount in the art of midfield play from McAllister - who's doing that for Lucas now?

I just don't see things as having changed that much in the last few years. Peaks and troughs. The troughs, like now, are truly truly woeful. :-(

I remember being blown away by the Valencia team that murdered us with Aimar, and the thought of that manager taking over and making us play like that made me excited for the future. Its not happened though, has it?

So Rafa's ;eague average points is 74, whereas GH's was 68. The league is much stronger nowadays too- as is evidenced by the Chavs & City money & the recent domination of English sides in the CL.

Our style of play is much better than under GH in general, but I'd agree when it's broken down this year, it looks just as bad.

[Roboklopp]

I don't agree they are the same at all.

I think the league stats alone paint a very different picture, in so much as the 80 point season under Houllier is the anomoly and the trend is a downward curve, where as Rafa's stats show an upward curve. Also that 80 point season was mostly under the watch of Phil Thompson.

I think the trend of increase under Rafa is pretty sure to drop off. Funny that given the net spend of FA over the last 2 years.

GH always seemed to have more cash to spend than Rafa. Is that true or is it just that others were spending less so it seemed that way.

[Daniel 7]

My main reason for including the tables was to illustrate that as a goalscoring team, not much has changed - elsewhere in the thread the point was made that Houllier's teams were negative, but our goalscoring threat doesn't seem to have changed much since Rafa - according to the stats. The points issue is different, didn't AC Milan bore their way to Serie A scoring something ridiculous like 40 goals?