Lucas

[dww]

That is definitely one of the major issues with the disliking of Lucas, that he is seen as the replacement of Alonso in the team, and for obvious reasons when our team formation is the same as last season, lineup the same with the only exception Lucas on the sheet instead of Alonso.

Lucas can't provide what Alonso did, and that pretty much leaves him unpopular when looking at the team sheet compared to last season. Of course Aquilani was brought in as Alonso's direct replacement, but when he is out of the team, as he has been for most of the season, it is only fair to ask who is supposed to take over the playmaking role?

It is a good question whether Rafa sees Lucas as that person, considering he insists on using the same formation, or if he is simply trying other things that don't work while having two anchor men cleaning up.

I'm not sure the lineup has been the same - the defense has been changing constantly - a big change from last year. We lost Arbeloa and Insua has replaced Aurelio as first choice. We have also been largely without Riera.

It is clear that we made a change in tactics which was to push forward from the fullback areas more and to narrow the attacking three (part of this may be a result of injury to Riera but I thought he was tucking in more when he played earlier in the season). I would suggest that to play two attacking fullbacks you need two tactically disciplined central midfielders. The problem with using Mascherano and Lucas in that role is that while they can move the ball quickly with short passes they quick long passes are not great. Thus we needed the likes of Benayoun, Riera, Kuyt and Gerrard to contribute more as playmakers. I would suggest that all have failed. This may in part be a function of injury rather than anything wrong with either the players or the tactics.

I think the answer is that Rafa sees no one player as the answer to the loss of Alonso but is looking for a shifting of responsibilities in the team/squad. We have had problems in two key areas that make the transition hard - 1/ defense and 2/ keeping a settled line up.

It's not quite fair on Lucas being judged on something he is not, but at the same time I can understand the disappointment of seeing him in the team, as we have very little creatively going forward from midfield. I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the Lucas-Mascher situation had been the other way around, with Lucas the established DM and then Mascher playing along side him after Alonso went to real. Would he have been just as unpopular?

I have to say it depends. I think the fact that Mascherano came as a big name would always have favoured him. Lucas is growing as a player and has made big strides. Mascherano seems to have reached pretty much a plateau but he reached that level very young and it is an exceptional level.

That said in both the last two seasons I think he has started the season horribly.

However you just have to look at the tackling stats to see that Mascherano is phenomenal in some areas of the game. Personally I think we should be looking for more than defensive work from our DM against smaller teams and would favour Lucas at times. However the flip side is that Mascherano is more suited to allowing the fullbacks to attack.

In general I think this is a real dilemma with defensive midfield players as it is very hard to judge them in isolation. the central midfield is such a pivotal area that the players available in nearly every other position (keeper excepted) has an impact on how effective a player will be in a team.

For me, especially without Johnson a midfield of Mascherano - Lucas and Kuyt should be avoided as it lead to us playing too deep and not moving the ball forward quickly or imaginatively enough.

[BrianF80]

Like i said, i don't doubt Mascherano's ability, and am more than happy when i see him on the teamsheet. I just wanted to garner why people seem to doubt Lucas, and consider Mascherano a better player. I offered the opinion that it was cos Mascher psyches the crowd up with his 100% commitment to the challenge, but also perhaps because we sold Alonso, and people see Lucas as his replacement, whereas the reality is Aquilani is that player to replace him.

I agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread but there are a couple of other things to throw into the mix. Mascherano has another gear, he is always able to raise the level of his game to either meet or exceed that of the opponent. Lucas hasn't demonstrated being able to do that yet, but that's a mental thing for me and that's where the real difference is between the two. Lucas has yet to play for us with confidence. The reasons are pretty obvious (and pretty damning), it'll take a couple of goals, but I believe he'll get his Gremio days mojo back and then this will be a very interesting comparison.

On Aquilani, I spoke to an Italian bloke about him and he is NOT a replacement for Alonso, he described him as the exact opposite type of player (based on how Italians view things which is surprisingly very different from English people). Mascherano is in fact the one who is to all intents and purposes playing the role Xabi did. He doesn't have the same attributes though so he interprets it differently. If people are looking for Aquilani to do what Xabi did they are going to be sorely disappointed.


Luclass + MoJo
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYqKzNlxclw"]YouTube- Lucas Leiva a Raça Tricolor![/ame]

[Darkon]

I'm not sure the lineup has been the same - the defense has been changing constantly - a big change from last year. We lost Arbeloa and Insua has replaced Aurelio as first choice. We have also been largely without Riera.

It is clear that we made a change in tactics which was to push forward from the fullback areas more and to narrow the attacking three (part of this may be a result of injury to Riera but I thought he was tucking in more when he played earlier in the season). I would suggest that to play two attacking fullbacks you need two tactically disciplined central midfielders. The problem with using Mascherano and Lucas in that role is that while they can move the ball quickly with short passes they quick long passes are not great. Thus we needed the likes of Benayoun, Riera, Kuyt and Gerrard to contribute more as playmakers. I would suggest that all have failed. This may in part be a function of injury rather than anything wrong with either the players or the tactics.

I think the answer is that Rafa sees no one player as the answer to the loss of Alonso but is looking for a shifting of responsibilities in the team/squad. We have had problems in two key areas that make the transition hard - 1/ defense and 2/ keeping a settled line up.

Well I know it hasn't been the exact same, and Johnson has replaced Arbeloa in the squad, but besides that it's pretty much the same players that are preferred in the starting lineup. And I wouldn't emphasize the defense role in our lack of attacking prowess to much compared to what we had last season.

But I'm leaning more towards your answer to the question of how Rafa sees Lucas role in the team, and that the overall tactical changes to the team haven't worked out as hoped.

If that is the way his role is in the team, and it could well be because Rafa keeps praising his performances, then it's not fair to him that he gets the critique that he does. If on the other hand he is his direct replacement right now, then I think it's somewhat justified that he is criticized.

The disappointment with Lucas for me is that I can't help to think of him as the caretaker of Aquilani's role in the team, which when we bought was setup as being attacking minded, Alonso type player but more of a goal threat. In that respect Lucas is not providing the needed backup. The crunch of it though is that Lucas is in a **** position because he is left there getting the stick for something he can essentially do nothing about.

[DeeTheDog]

As big a fan of Lucas as I am, I feel he cannot be compared to Mascherano in the defensive midfielder role. The comparison I feel moot as Lucas is a central midfielder unlike Mascherano who is a specialist in the defensive midfielder position. Mascherano on form is peerless in that position, he can dominate the opposing midfielder winning possession and covering across the back four.

Lucas has improved his strength, tackling and defensive positioning this season, making him a much more rounded player and in my eyes is easily our most consistent performer with Reina. He is not a not a deep lying playmaker a la Alonso, so again the comparison is unfair; he appears to be about quick, short one-two passes getting from box-to-box, unfortunately a lot of our forward play is centred around Gerrard and Torres which subjugates the central midfield role into water carriers, for the two figureheads in attack.

On a slight tangent, I am tired of reading the template taunt of this player not fit to wear the Liverpool shirt in regards to players like Lucas, N'gog & Kuyt etc. All the great Liverpool teams had players who some may have considered 'not good enough,' indeed barring the 1988 team, our greatest teams were bereft of real flair, with the team ethos and excellent pass and move football being the template for success. A long as they are willing to sweat blood for the team, I will always support players like Kuyt and Lucas because if we are to win number 19, it will be because of these players not in spite.

Cue tumbleweed as my post is completely disregarded...

[BrianF80]

As big a fan of Lucas as I am, I feel he cannot be compared to Mascherano in the defensive midfielder role. The comparison I feel moot as Lucas is a central midfielder unlike Mascherano who is a specialist in the defensive midfielder position. Mascherano on form is peerless in that position, he can dominate the opposing midfielder winning possession and covering across the back four.

Lucas has improved his strength, tackling and defensive positioning this season, making him a much more rounded player and in my eyes is easily our most consistent performer with Reina. He is not a not a deep lying playmaker a la Alonso, so again the comparison is unfair; he appears to be about quick, short one-two passes getting from box-to-box, unfortunately a lot of our forward play is centred around Gerrard and Torres which subjugates the central midfield role into water carriers, for the two figureheads in attack.

On a slight tangent, I am tired of reading the template taunt of this player not fit to wear the Liverpool shirt in regards to players like Lucas, N'gog & Kuyt etc. All the great Liverpool teams had players who some may have considered 'not good enough,' indeed barring the 1988 team, our greatest teams were bereft of real flair, with the team ethos and excellent pass and move football being the template for success. A long as they are willing to sweat blood for the team, I will always support players like Kuyt and Lucas because if we are to win number 19, it will be because of these players not in spite.

Cue tumbleweed as my post is completely disregarded...

There was an interview on the offal a couple of months back where Lucas said he'd been told his primary role was "to be a solution for other people". I think that hints at the same kind of things as you are.

[BillobShaisley]

How so...he's made more successful tackles, but at a lower percentage than Mascher...which implies he is actually making a lot more tackles overall (do the maths). Like Mascher, they both work all over the pitch, and have great match engines, however unlike Mascher, Lucas' tackles are the little niggling ones which don't get the crowd going and often go unnoticed, whereas Mascher flies into the tackle, taking man and ball, and the crowd roar their approval so the impact gets noticed more. So why is he not at Mascher's level, what is it that Mascher is offering that is so great, that Lucas doesn't offer? It's all i'm asking.

I'm one of lucas' champions, but the stats don't include pressing, marking or interceptions or the type and location of the tackle. Whatever the stats, if you watch a few games you see that Macherano provides a more secure foil than Lucas does because of his effect on how the game unfolds. I'd guess he gives away less free kicks too?

Macher can meg a defender in the box when he tries.

Stats are interesting in context, the fact that Xabi on got 3 assists clearly shows that assists are not a very good indicator of creative influence. Keeping the play moving while in possession and not simply making a 2 pass counter is a crucial skill in football, making angles for 1-2's, spreading at the right time, drawing a defender before releasing a teammate etc are all essential skills which you notice especially when watching Xavi and Iniesta at Barca. The end to end rush that epitomised the 80's has evolved, retaining possession while attacking in waves is where it's at and that's what Xavi, Xabi, Inesta, Kaka etc do and Stevie still doesn't realy understand. It's something I can see Lucas becoming very good at in the right team.

[BrianF80]

I'm one of lucas' champions, but the stats don't include pressing, marking or interceptions or the type and location of the tackle. Whatever the stats, if you watch a few games you see that Macherano provides a more secure foil than Lucas does because of his effect on how the game unfolds. I'd guess he gives away less free kicks too?

Macher can meg a defender in the box when he tries.

Big game, final few minutes, the oppositions speed merchant is away on the counter. Who do you want hunting him down?

[BillobShaisley]

Stupid question that ignores all the debate above. Usain Bolt.


Paulo Maldini or Roberto Baggio?

[BrianF80]

Stupid question that ignores all the debate above. Usain Bolt.

No it doesn't, it merely provides a different perspective based on an in-game situation. But if it doesn't work for you fair enough.

[badpiggy]

Never mentioned anything about flying into tackles.

If you dont think that Mascherano is arguably the best defensive midfielder in the world (along with Essien), then that's upto you.

I'd point to the notion that Barcelona have been strongly linked to Mascherano and he'd be likely to command a fee in the region of £30m if he were to be sold. Do you think Lucas would command a similar fee, or attract the likes of Barcelona? I dont think he would, personally.

But each to their own. If you think that, all things considered, Lucas is generally as good as Mascherano, that's your choice.

I think there's a chasm of difference in their relative levels of quality.

not the point of this thread i know, but i may have said it before and this uncertainty will lead me to say it again in the future, but i would replace masher with essien in a heartbeat. actually masher plus £10m for essien.

[JohnDoe]

He's ****ing ****e. How the **** did he finish this match. Absolutely useless waste of oxygen. Get rid of him, or put him away somewhere, I don't know.

[Craig_H]

And all i've asked is for you to explain what you think that Mascherano brings over Lucas, not the fact that Barca are allegedly willing to pay £30 million for him...allegedly, altho that bid never materialised in any way, shape or form??

What do you think he offers that Lucas doesn't? An aerial threat? The ability to beat 3 players and unleash a thunderbolt? Cos it ain't tackling or distribution from the back, both do that job. So what is it that makes Mascher world class in your eyes? Or you, DeanoUK, why are you so keen to agree...what makes Mascher a so much better player...the two players have very similar stats, both have non-stop engines and hassle and harry all over the pitch, both can be found in the defensive area making key interceptions, plus Lucas is now making more forrays into the opposition area...so why is Mascher so much better?

Would you ask me to explain why Cristiano Ronaldo's better than Dirk Kuyt? It's not a wildly different comparison and needs little or no explanation.

Every man and his dog, when answering honestly and without seeking to angle the debate in any specific direction, would concur that Mascherano is generally a considerably better overall player than Lucas.

At least stats have a basis in fact, unlike individuals' prejudices. Alonso's "passing and vision going forward" is a great example. He provided just 3 assists out of 77 league goals last season, so were his passing and vision not very accurate?

Why is it 'prejudices' ? Why would anyone HAVE prejudices? That's surreal.

Maybe people just dont think Lucas is anything special.

Is that viewpoint not allowed?

[Craig_H]

Like i said, i don't doubt Mascherano's ability, and am more than happy when i see him on the teamsheet. I just wanted to garner why people seem to doubt Lucas, and consider Mascherano a better player. I offered the opinion that it was cos Mascher psyches the crowd up with his 100% commitment to the challenge, but also perhaps because we sold Alonso, and people see Lucas as his replacement, whereas the reality is Aquilani is that player to replace him.

I'm dubious as to whether you really didnt know what i meant, but ok.

Mascherano offers far more drive, more tenacity, is quicker, offers more determination, is physically stronger and has a far greater sense of natural positional awareness, as well as being far more combative, with a greater competitive streak, greater seniority and leadership qualities, and a stronger will to win.

Lucas is a better 'simple' passer, has a better footballing brain, meaning he plays in a more subtle & composed manner, which in turn seems to lead to less fouls conceded and means he's less prone to losing his head, but also means he doesnt reach the same levels of drive and can easily be outmuscled and shrugged off the ball.

Mascherano is a world class defensive midfielder who would get into most teams in the world. Lucas is good/decent midfielder, who probably wouldnt.

This has nothing to do with commentators, and everything to do with what i have observed whilst watching them both over the past few seasons.

[vonk]

I've never seen what anyone sees in Lucas. I think he's a very ordinary footballer and compared the Liverpool midfielders we've had in the last 20 years (Paul Stewart being an exception) I think he compares unfavourably. Maybe he will come good but I can only judge based on watching the game for 32 odd years.

Average. Masherano is a way better player. And I don't hate Brazilians.

[Craig_H]

Luclass + MoJo
YouTube- Lucas Leiva a Raça Tricolor!

It's pleasing to see that he has it in his locker, and obviously we all hope he can discover that form, but it's also worth noting that Gremio play in a far inferior league to the PL and the standard over here is considerably higher.