Lucas

[-V-]

Lucas is the most successful passer in the league. 1200 successful passes, more than any player in the premiership.

My opinion has not changed, he's a very good squad player. He is a defensive midfielder though, he gets stick for not attacking enough but thats not his fault as he is more a Mascherano type player.

Also 3rd highest number of successful tackles

[Scratch]

Lucas is the most successful passer in the league. 1200 successful passes, more than any player in the premiership.

My opinion has not changed, he's a very good squad player. He is a defensive midfielder though, he gets stick for not attacking enough but thats not his fault as he is more a Mascherano type player.

Also 3rd highest number of successful tackles

Got a link for that please mate, will solve an office argument

[BillobShaisley]

Can I just firstly say that I'm not here to vent my frustration on this season on one player. I will give Lucas 100% support and really admire his effort and the passion he shows for the club. I'm just saying it how I see it at the moment.

The point is, he really hasn't moved his game on. I think it's been a great opportunity for him in the last 5 months to pull a few strings in midfield but he still looks like he doesn't know what to do with the ball. He's not giving the opposition anything to think about or worry about. If he's there just to break up play then we're selling ourselves short by playing 2 out and out ball winners. I think most midfelders would enjoy their battle with our Lucas.

I think its been so long since we played pass and move football, we've forgotten what it looks like. Lucas needs movement around him so he has some targets to hit.

He's also completing forward passes a lot more often these days.

[Nick77]

Lucas is the most successful passer in the league. 1200 successful passes, more than any player in the premiership.

That's because 99% of his passes are backwards & sideways...

[BillobShaisley]

Try watching a game. Lots of forward passes, obviously been working on it in training.

[RedReet]

That's because 99% of his passes are backwards & sideways...

People always use this as a criticism (gravely exaggerated of course), but never do they mention examples of him doing it when he had better options. If people were to say ‘he passed it sideways when X or Y were free ahead of him’, then fair enough. Maybe we should move Carra into midfield and he can hoof it forward at every given opportunity.

I think its been so long since we played pass and move football, we've forgotten what it looks like. Lucas needs movement around him so he has some targets to hit.

He's also completing forward passes a lot more often these days.

[Assassin]

That's because 99% of his passes are backwards & sideways...

One word










Bull****!!!

[-V-]

Got a link for that please mate, will solve an office argument

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11096_2705370,00.html

Category Player/Team Total
Top Shooter Wayne Rooney (Man Utd) 92
Top Passer Lucas (Liverpool) 1200
Top Tackler Hendry Thomas (Wigan) 105
Most Dribbles & Runs Charles N'Zogbia (Wigan) 126
Most Crosses Andy Reid (Sunderland) 213
Most Offsides Jermain Defoe (Tottenham) 36
Most Fouls Kevin Davies (Bolton) 67
Team with most fouls Hull 332
Team with most shots Chelsea 370

Goalkeepers Team Saves Saves/shots
Jensen Burnley 90 69%
Jääskeläinen Bolton 82 66%
Green West Ham 79 68%
Robinson Blackburn 73 65%
Myhill Hull 71 68%

Tacklers Team Tackles Success rate
Thomas Wigan 105 78%
Mascherano Liverpool 101 81%
Lucas Liverpool 93 65%
Palacios Tottenham 86 73%
Petrov Aston Villa 80 79%

Passers Team Passes Accuracy
Lucas Liverpool 1200 85%
Mascherano Liverpool 1195 84%
Fabregas Arsenal 1176 80%
Huddlestone Tottenham 1134 79%
Evra Man Utd 1098 82%

Scorers Team Goals Goal/shots
Rooney Man Utd 19 21%
Bent Sunderland 14 26%
Defoe Tottenham 14 22%
Drogba Chelsea 14 16%
Torres Liverpool 12 29%

[el matador]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,195...705370,00.html

Category Player/Team Total
Top Shooter Wayne Rooney (Man Utd) 92
Top Passer Lucas (Liverpool) 1200
Top Tackler Hendry Thomas (Wigan) 105
Most Dribbles & Runs Charles N'Zogbia (Wigan) 126
Most Crosses Andy Reid (Sunderland) 213
Most Offsides Jermain Defoe (Tottenham) 36
Most Fouls Kevin Davies (Bolton) 67
Team with most fouls Hull 332
Team with most shots Chelsea 370

Goalkeepers Team Saves Saves/shots
Jensen Burnley 90 69%
Jääskeläinen Bolton 82 66%
Green West Ham 79 68%
Robinson Blackburn 73 65%
Myhill Hull 71 68%

Tacklers Team Tackles Success rate
Thomas Wigan 105 78%
Mascherano Liverpool 101 81%
Lucas Liverpool 93 65%
Palacios Tottenham 86 73%
Petrov Aston Villa 80 79%

Passers Team Passes Accuracy
Lucas Liverpool 1200 85%
Mascherano Liverpool 1195 84%
Fabregas Arsenal 1176 80%
Huddlestone Tottenham 1134 79%
Evra Man Utd 1098 82%

Scorers Team Goals Goal/shots
Rooney Man Utd 19 21%
Bent Sunderland 14 26%
Defoe Tottenham 14 22%
Drogba Chelsea 14 16%
Torres Liverpool 12 29%

This stat sums up perfectly why our season has been poor by our expectations. Our two defensive midfield players (who are also behind the defence the least creative of our team) have had more of the ball than any other player at the club and indeed the EPL. The others Fabregas and Huddlestone are both attack minded players.

Lucas and mascherano were probably passing the ball to each other until lucas gave it away a couple of times.

[dww]

I'm not sure Huddlestone is a particularly attack minded player. He's a cut price Carrick if you ask me.

[Reece]

Lucas and mascherano were probably passing the ball to each other until lucas gave it away a couple of times.

Clearly, that's why is pass accuracy % rate is so low.

[Darkon]

I'm not sure Huddlestone is a particularly attack minded player. He's a cut price Carrick if you ask me.

[Darkon]

Stats are really the worst type of evidence, as they only give you a part of the truth. It's no coincidence that there is 4 defensive players on the top list of passes, as they are the ones doing the most simple passes normally. Fabregas is the exception, and I think those stats say more about him than the other 4 players.

Lucas is a decent player, but he can't fill the role everybody expects him to (myself included I guess), and that's alonso's passing and vision going forward. There is no doubt in my mind that lucas and mascher together in our midfield has been a weight on our attacking play this season.

Aquilani needs more time, and Rafa don't seem to like the idea of getting Gerrard a run in CM. So for now we have to live with us playing two midfielders that are essentially both anchor-men, with Lucas slightly more forward going.

[dww]

Stats are really the worst type of evidence, as they only give you a part of the truth. It's no coincidence that there is 4 defensive players on the top list of passes, as they are the ones doing the most simple passes normally. Fabregas is the exception, and I think those stats say more about him than the other 4 players.

I think the problem here is more with the way people us stats than the stats themselves. For example here people continuously say Lucas 'gives the ball away' which the raw data suggests is not the case at all comparatively with any other player in the division.

This should be used as evidence that needs you to alter you opinion. Not necessarily that you suddenly think Lucas is a world beater but possibly you should change your complaint to something along the lines of: Lucas gives the ball away too much in dangerous areas.

It is rare that any single piece of evidence is enough to make a good evaluation of anything. Statistics are no different and as you say context is important. However the fact that statistics only give some parts of a story doesn't mean that they can be dismissed entirely which some people seem to want to do.

Lucas is a decent player, but he can't fill the role everybody expects him to (myself included I guess), and that's alonso's passing and vision going forward. There is no doubt in my mind that lucas and mascher together in our midfield has been a weight on our attacking play this season.

Personally I think the aim was that we should have had more ways to bring the ball forward from deep - i.e. we had both the same attacking quartet as last year + more frequent attacking fullbacks comfortable with moving forward. In that context the lack of long passing and vision of Mascherano and Lucas could be made up for by short quick passing to find an outlet and start attacks. Unfortunately I think we have left too many gaps on the counter, played too deep and the attacking players have been playing badly. The former I think is partly a consequence of the attacking fullbacks thing. The others seem to be a feedback loop which includes the limitations of the Mascherano/Lucas central midfield axis.

Aquilani needs more time, and Rafa don't seem to like the idea of getting Gerrard a run in CM. So for now we have to live with us playing two midfielders that are essentially both anchor-men, with Lucas slightly more forward going.

I'm not sure that they have to be seen as anchormen but I take your point. We need to play more to their strengths and giving width to the attack would give them more space and options which I think is one key to getting the balance in the team right.

[Craig_H]

It's silly to say 'all of Lucas passes are sideways or backwards', but i dont think it's wrong to say that he doesnt exactly litter the field with killer balls or incisive defence-splitting passes. In his time at the club, he's probably played about 10 of those.

There's the other argument as well though, that you need the odd player who just plays it simple and keeps things ticking over. Hamann rarely played a Gerrard-esque type of defence splitting pass either and there was nowt wrong with his contribution.

That said, i think one 'keep it simple' type of defensive midfielder is enough for us, especially at home.

I'd be lying if i said i didnt wish Lucas had more to his passing.